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| Does anyone have any experience/knowledge of Orthene (acephate)? If applied just below soil at a tree's base, is there any toxicity risk to humans? I mow in this area and will be stirring up soil dust when I do. I can wait a week or so before mowing though.
Is it a hazard once the leaves of the tree fall off and decompose? This is a 35 foot tall honey locust which is about 1 foot from the end of our deck and maybe 8 ft from a window/patio door on the house. Leaf litter is always collecting on the deck. Do I need to be careful with the litter, or does the acephate in the leaves break down in a couple weeks as well? I'm not posting what's it's being used for because I'm really just interested in it's safety. Thanks so much in advance. |
Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Thu, Jul 7, 11 at 8:24
| i would not rely on the knowledge of a bunch of strangers.. no matter how good hearted we are ... use the 800 number on the product ... and contact the manufacturer ... talk to your county extension office ... google the MSDS sheets .. etc .... i will start your research with the link below ... something is nagging at me.. that you wont tell us what you are using it for.. is it a labeled use for your application ... the link below suggests use for ants... ants are rarely the issue in tree management ... i hesitate to encourage you to proceed.. when i dont really know what you are using the product for .. good luck ken |
Here is a link that might be useful: link
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| Thanks for the link and suggestions. A professional suggested and will be applying it, so I am trusting the professional to know what is right to use for the pest. What I always like to double check is safety. If you have to know, it's for mimosa webworms. It's too late for BCK because they are well into their first generation. The arborist didn't want to get spray all over my house, so this was his systemic alternative. He told me that he had used it to great success in the past. |
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| Oh wait..that's a link to google. hah. I've already googled and read the MSDS sheets. I was hoping that one of you smart folks could offer more tailored answers to my questions. Thanks again. |
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| Long term I don't see any problems but short term I'd probably want to stay away. There are other systemics that don't have the smell. Have you checked the Bayer Tree and Shrub insecticides? You could always call the chemical company and ask what their recommendation is as far as re-entry. Water at some point before re-entry to keep the dust to a minimal. |
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| So I had an tree company treat with Orthene, and now I'm understanding what you meant about the smell. There was no odor for the first several days to a week. Now, either an animal has died right near my house somewhere, or the tree is stankin. Does this stuff sorta offgas from the treat and generally smell like rotting garbage? Is it safe to breath? When will it end? :) |
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| Mites are more resistant to most chemical controls than something like a webworm. Even though it can be called out to address a mite infestation, it may not be effective with the rates you have received for another pest. Honey locust are a host for mites and I'm curious now if mites will be the resultant secondary infection you can expect next. They can do worse damage than webworms. Gets complicated, doesn't it? |
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- Posted by gardengal48 PNW zone 8 (My Page) on Mon, Aug 1, 11 at 20:31
| One of the best places to find out unbiased info on pesticides is via EXTOXNET, an EPA registered pesticide data base, or the National Pesticide Information Center website managed by Oregon State University. Both of these sources provide much more detailed info than do the MSDS sheets, especially as it deals with toxicity and persistance. Acephate is an organophosphate, a class of pesticides that can have profound and long term toxicity with humans, especially children - they are neurological disruptors. Many of these types of pesticides have already been removed from the marketplace as being of unnecessary danger and too frequent use. It would not be my first choice......I'd look at whatever other products are available to control the problem before selecting acephate. Both neem oil (azadirachtin) and Bt are registered for this pest and they are considered 'natural' control methods. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Extoxnet info on acephate
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| How do I get neem or Bt to the top of a 35' tall tree though? I tried and it was a mess. |
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| The fact that the rates might not be high enough to kill mites kinda steals the thunder from the toxicity scare. Also, the orthene is only effective for 2 to 3 weeks. After that it isn't strong enough to kill the 3 mm worms that are eating it directly. I have kept the windows closed and not allowed anyone in the area for 2 weeks. So really, even though I asked, I'm not scared. At this point I just want to know if it's a dead animal or the Orthene that I am smelling from someone who has used the product before. If it's the former, then I'd like to find the body and dispose of it. |
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| The old ortho sprayerette 4 can get about 25' into the air. Maybe you can just spray a jet stream with water and see if it does any good. |
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| I used an ortho hose and sprayer, duct taped it to the end of my pole pruner and sent that thang as high as I could, WHILE standing on my deck, and it still didn't reach the top 1/4 of the tree. If anyone knows of a sprayer that can reach 40 ft, then please let me know. If it costs under $300 I might just buy it and be done with the tree guy. |
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| Orthene is an organophosphate and organophosphates break down quickly in the environment, so you are safe to mow or anything else after a few days. This does not mean they are not harmful. Organophosphates can be very poisonous before they break down, but do not build up in animal tissue. But Wow! A "professional" told you to soil treat for Webworm with Orthene? As far as I know Orhene is not even registered for this pest and application method and I doubt it will work. Also any product applied to the roots can take 4-6 weeks to get to the top of a tree of the size you describe so the worms would be long gone even if it did work. Others have suggested Bayer, I assume this is their tree and shrub (imidicloprid), and this will work and is a better choice for this pest. Imidicloprid will however encourage Spider Mites. Note that imidicloprid is over used for too many pests and is often not needed, but for a single specimen tree with a specific problem like this it would be a good choice, and will give you 2-3 years of control if applied correctly. |
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| He applied it at the end of July. The second generation of mimosa webworm larvae are active during August and early September, and since the larval stage of this pest is the most damaging life stage, I think the 4 - 6 weeks is actually perfect. :) http://ento.psu.edu/extension/factsheets/mimosa-webworm Regading Bayer, are you sure we're talking about the same worm. I called Bayer and checked the label, and I never encountered mimosa webworms as a targeted pest. I've seen it mentioned on a few websites, but acephate is almost always mentioned. Get back to me on this one. |
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| "The fact that the rates might not be high enough to kill mites kinda steals the thunder from the toxicity scare" No it doesn't. Mites are very hard to kill and there are a lot of nasty chemicals out there to control them. I also wondered if it were registered as a soil drench for webworm. I also hate to see the extent that imidicloprid is used but agree it would have been a better choice in this situation. |
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| Well I take a demerit for this one. Though I stand by the fact that Orthene in the soil will not control this pest, I missed that this is a true Lepidoptera and Imidacloprid is not fully effective either. I did more research and can find no Information that any soil treatments are effective for this pest. If the Orthene worked and is labeled for this use, than stick with it. I think you will have to break down and go for a foliar treatment with BT, Spinosad, Neem, oil or other Lepidotera killer. Azadirachtin, a Neem product can be trunk injected but it would be expensive. |
Here is a link that might be useful: link to fact sheet
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| "No it doesn't. Mites are very hard to kill and there are a lot of nasty chemicals out there to control them. I also wondered if it were registered as a soil drench for webworm. I also hate to see the extent that imidicloprid is used but agree it would have been a better choice in this situation." I repeat: "the orthene is only effective for 2 to 3 weeks. After that it isn't strong enough to kill the 3 mm worms that are EATING it directly. I have kept the windows closed and not allowed anyone in the area for 2 weeks." I avoid a lot of pesticides, herbicides, and chemicals, but I just couldn't deal with these worms any more, and as far as imidicloprid being a better choice, how can I ignore the manufacturer, Bayer, who said that their product was not specified for mimosa webworms? On a brighter note, I never did see the second generation of webworms emerge. I still have leaves on the tree, whereas last year the tree looked like a matted, brown, Halloween, worm den. Of course the tree is unhealthy for some other unknown reason, but that's something that has been developing for a few years. Probably the reason the worms decided to take up house in the first place. I�m doubtful that I can cure what ails it though. I am still seeing Orthene as a solution on many state university websites, but rarely imidicloprid. As far as a soil drench goes, I'd rather that, if it works, than spraying the crap all over my house and yard. Here's an article that states: "Acephate, the active ingredient in Orthene, is able to get into the plant regardless of how it's applied, according to new research at the University of Florida." http://southeastfarmpress.com/research-shows-benefits-orthene BTW, other than obvious toxic exposure to someone who breaths in or comes in contact with orthene that has not yet broken down, what is the big deal with hiring someone to use it as a soil drench. Are there other environmental impacts that are motivating the resistance to its use in my situation (other than the fact that no one believes that it works)? If the worms come back, I might try to hire a company who's willing to spray bt, but if it�s too late for a spray, I might try the orthene as a drench one last time since it definitely seems to have killed any active worms this past go around. |
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| Conventionally treatments to make the host plant poisonous are used for sucking pests only, and not chewing pests. |
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