Return to the Trees Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
First storm damaged tree, help please

Posted by j0nd03 7 west/central AR (My Page) on
Wed, Aug 10, 11 at 9:01

Autumn Blaze Maple planted fall 2009

Background:

I had to stake this tree after it was planted because the winds out of the west were so strong and the tree was not rooted in the hole well enough to stay upright during strong wind storms. I removed the staking ropes last summer and it never moved in its hole after that. It did develop a small lean from about 4' up from the wind but has been stable for over a year now. I had several AB's get frost crack this past winter. I didn't know a tree this large needed protection so lesson learned there. We had a storm with some much needed rain move through early this morning. A strong gust from these storms split the tree, the weak point being a frost crack that had calloused and was recovering. There was also a borer larvae apparently underneath the bark. Tree was doing great otherwise...

The repair plan I made on the way to work this morning (if the rest of the storms today do not finish it off) is to stake the tree immobilizing it and then insert several large screws after the tree is straight. I don't have any other ideas.

You can see in the background of the second pic in the background on the left, a post oak had it's top blown out in a storm last year.

Advice?????

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us
By jp_42_82 at 2011-08-10
Image Hosted by ImageShack.us
By jp_42_82 at 2011-08-10
Image Hosted by ImageShack.us
By jp_42_82 at 2011-08-10
Image Hosted by ImageShack.us
By jp_42_82 at 2011-08-10
Image Hosted by ImageShack.us
By jp_42_82 at 2011-08-10
Image Hosted by ImageShack.us
By jp_42_82 at 2011-08-10

Here is the borer larvae being devoured by ants.


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

Sorry to say, but remove and replace is about the only thing to be done. The tree will always have a weak point at that location even if it were to recover. Then there is a very real chance there may be other borers too. Not to mention likely trunk rot from damage that large. Hate to say it, but the tree is done.

On a side note, that looks allot like the borer that kill a dogwood for us recently.

Arktrees


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

  • Posted by j0nd03 7 west/central AR (My Page) on
    Wed, Aug 10, 11 at 9:28

Well, I had considered that, too Ark. I was thinking about replacement trees on the way to work. If the consensus is replacement, I think I would like the Autumn Splendor sugar maple you have been talking about. It is the one that turns orange, correct? Isn't sugar maple stronger wooded (I realize it was the frost crack that played the biggest part in this failure)?


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

Replace.

Dan


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

j0nd03,
"Autumn Splendor" and "John Pair" are both Caddo ecotypes of Sugar Maple, and Sugar Maple is considered to be much stronger wood than Red/freesmanii Maples. When I get home this even I will post a couple picture to this thread. "Autumn Splendor" is being planted at the local botanical garden, and I have a couple of pictures of a couple of them from last fall, and yes they are very orange. But I also got a couple of pictures of "John Pair" that I took at a local nursery last fall. "John Pair" was also orange, but a bit more of a red-orange color. If my memory serves me correctly, "Autumn Splendor" is considered faster growing than "John Pair". I know those at the botanical garden are growing nicely. One last thing to be aware of with the Caddo ecotype Sugar Maples, is that they don't get as large as standard Sugar Maples. However they will handle the drought much better.

Arktrees


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

  • Posted by j0nd03 7 west/central AR (My Page) on
    Wed, Aug 10, 11 at 10:37

That is what I though you told me in email. I am much more comfortable with a smaller tree in that spot (ie one that doesn't get 100' tall). It is not evident in the pictures, but behind the ditch I have planted around 13-14 other trees that I don't want totally obscured height wise. I have planted an assortment that I am hoping will be beautiful 10-15 years down the road with a contrasting fall color scheme that I don't want blocked out many more years down the road... although I probably won't be around to see a sugar maple get that large.

Well that is two replacement votes. Looking like I need to hook the chain up to the truck and pull her out.


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

Wow, what a huge hole that borer made! That is the icing on the decision for me about replacement.

I'm sorry that happened! But I like the way you are already looking ahead to the "opportunity". ;)


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please-

  • Posted by j0nd03 7 west/central AR (My Page) on
    Wed, Aug 10, 11 at 10:44

Thanks esh :)

I was running out of room for new stuff as it was, and the drought tolerance of those caddo type sugar maples has me VERY interested after this past summer! I would be lying if I said the thought of taking out a couple more of the AB hadn't crossed my mind before this happened. It is just that they were $250 each after transport and planting. I am too cheap to part with them after that investment I suppose. Ironically, the two in the backyard were the ones I wanted to keep, and nature already destroyed one of those.

John

ps - I still have those scans for the oak you sent. A couple of more months and I will update that topic with pics and my (probably erroneous) conclusion.


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

get rid of it...

replace smaller.. so it has a longer time to grow the roots to hold itself up ....

bigger is not better ... IMHO ...

ken


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

  • Posted by j0nd03 7 west/central AR (My Page) on
    Wed, Aug 10, 11 at 12:33

Ken, that's what I said to the wife but she want's matching size to the other 4 still standing. Still working on her but I don't have much faith in "smaller is better" working on her ;-)


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

  • Posted by j0nd03 7 west/central AR (My Page) on
    Wed, Aug 10, 11 at 13:06

I have located B&B Autumn Splendor starting at $250 for 2.5" and going up $100 for each additional 1" caliper. So the question remains whether or not I can make her go smaller.

I also just came up with a (probably not so) brilliant idea for borers with visible holes. Most of my mulch piles have an ant colony somewhere at the base. Could I sprinkle syrup up the trunk of the tree into the borer hole in hopes the ants would follow the sugar trail and kill it after finding him? I know, I know "They have pesticides for that, young man!" but this is a potentially a cheap and "green" way to do it. Just curious... and yes, it is a slow day at the office for me. Lots of time to post on GW lol


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

IME women want larger much more frequently than men, even when you tell them that the smaller one will catch up to the larger. I'd always charge clients more for large tree because of the wider hole and extra care needed to baby a large tree through establishment.

Dan


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

It is likely to take 2 years or so to begin growing normally, so those other AB will be growing all the while. In short they will never match in size. With that said, there is the political home situation that has to be address, I would probable feel her out on the 2.5" caliper and see how that goes, but if I meet very much resistance break ranks and go larger. If you are planting this fall, then that helps you allot. Those roots will grow all winter long (Ken and others in the north, our ground rarely freezes more than and inch or so, and even that does not lasts long), and by next spring the tree will already be much happier. Our Bailsta we planted in the fall had NO ISSUES the following year. It was so much easier than when we have planted in the spring. Also, don't neglect just how heavy that root ball is going to be. So if your doing the planting (with lots of help of course), then don't go past 2.5" caliper unless you got the tools to handle it.

Lastly, one more alternative. I saw "Bonfire" here recently at 2.5" caliper, that looked to be in reasonable condition. Reason I bring it up, in a research paper I found from Alabama Huntsville they did a trail of many Sugar Maple cultivars in Zone 7 Alabama. The "Bonfire" grew the fastest of all the cultivars tested.

Arktrees


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

Arktrees,

Are those Okie sugar maple trees rooted or grafted? I'm wondering about rootstock and drought tolerant.


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

Lou,
I can't say that I "know", but what makes sense to me is that the cultivar grafted onto standard Sugar Maple root stock. Reason I say that is the Caddo Sugar Maples can be sold for a premium over standard Sugar Maples. So for the grower, it make economic sense to grow the Caddo seedlings to trees, and graft the Caddo cultivars onto standard root stock knowing that few people will realize this as a possible concern.

What would the expected the results of this practice. I would think the drought resistance would lie in between Sugar Maple, and the Caddo ecotype Sugar Maple. You would still have the shoot adaptations for drought in the stems, leaves etc, but any root adaptations of the Caddo ecotype would not be present with one possible exception. That one exception is that it would not be surprising for Caddo Sugar Maples to have a larger more extensive root system than standard Sugar Maple. Since root growth is largely governed by the trees above ground parts, there could still be a more extensive root system due to those above ground parts being Caddo in origin.

As for rooting cuttings, I would think that is unlikely since all the cultivars of Sugar Maples I have looked at, have been grafted. Therefore it would seem there are few, if any, own root grown cultivars on the market. Though I am hardly an expert. Just stating what seems most logical from a growers standpoint.

JMHO
Arktress


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

  • Posted by whaas 5a SE WI (My Page) on
    Wed, Aug 10, 11 at 16:14

Can you post a better view of the entry point of that borer? I'm now on the look out for these holes. Yours must have been tougher to spot since it was an existing wound.

What if you do spot a hole? Should you gently glide a wire hanger in there to crush the little bugger?


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

Arktrees,

When I searched for more information over rootstock, etc, I came across this sugar maple from Kansas called Hiawatha Sugar Maple. Thought you may be interested because this one survived severe ice storm without any major problem.

Here is a link that might be useful: Hiawatha


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

Oh John, sorry about your poor tree, good luck with the search for its replacement.


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

first.. walk in the living room and demand to paint it puke orange .. and start throwing a hissy fit ... and when she puts her foot down.. and says no way IN MY HOUSE.. then ...

then assume the evil grim.. and tell her its YOUR YARD ...

got it ..

now .. when this was smaller.. it keep falling over because of your soil.. and its size .. and the wind.. yes????

so let me get this straight.. you now want to get a bigger one.. to catch up with the others .. and what .. hope and pray that one doesnt start tipping over ...

just go buy the puke paint.. and forget about trees..

ken


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

Back to the OP:

Looks tall and gangly for that caliper. That is a good chance at being the real issue here; one presumes this tree was subject to the nursery practices bboy and brandon decry so often here. Smaller trees don't do that.

Just a thought.

Dan


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

  • Posted by j0nd03 7 west/central AR (My Page) on
    Wed, Aug 10, 11 at 22:35

OK lou, now I have to add a hiawatha (or 2) to the collection, GREAT read there on the link.

GV, luckily I have found this very helpful place to hang out. I am not worried in the least about the success of a new planting for my part with all the wisdom on this board. Thanks for the encouragement!

Ken, don't ever leave GW, seriously. Hilarious, I hope your kids appreciate that humor ;-)

Dan, the trees were pretty extensively pruned (to keep the dripline in the pot boundaries I assume). I agree they do look weird about 10-12' up in the way they are filled out below then shoot almost vertical. I will post a profile pic before the destruction when I get to work tomorrow (my laptop stays there during the week). It was a pretty profile of a tree.

Good points Dan and Ken, I will relay the message to the wife.

John


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

Time for the promised pictures. These were taken on a cell phone camera last fall during a very dry period. They are not the best pictures in the world, but when you run across something and the cellphone is what you got to take a picture, then a cell phone is what you use.

Acer saccharum 'Autumn Splendor' at the local botanical garden last October during drought.


Acer saccharum 'Autumn Splendor'

Acer saccharum 'Autumn Splendor'


Acer saccharum 'Bailsta' aka Fall Fiesta at a local nursery October 2010


Acer saccharum 'Bailsta'

Acer saccharum 'Bailsta'


And Acer saccharum 'John Pair' small 6'-7' tree at the same local nursery as 'Bailsta' at the same day October 2010.


Acer saccharum 'John Pair'

Acer saccharum 'John Pair'

NOTICE:
This last picture is a Acer saccharum at the local botanical garden. I suspect that it is Autumn Splendor, but I don't know that for certain. I have never found a identifying tag on it, however all the other Sugar Maples they have planted retaining a ID tag have been Autumn Splendor. What's more in person the characteristic seem consistent for larger more mature version of those Sugar Maples they have been planting. But again, I don't "know" that it is, and have not been able to date to get a definitive answer. So take it for what it's worth.

Arktrees

Acer saccharum 'Autumn Splendor''???


 o
forgot to add

Lou,
Thanks for the link to the story. I had across a partial write up before, but that one had ALLOT detail, and was much more complete. I came across a pdf of the introduction of Hiawatha into the trade, and though the picture they included was very nice. To my surprise some of them 7'-8' showed up at one of my local nurseries last fall. They still look fairly good condition, so I may be picking one up for my family that lost all their big trees to a storm in May. Unfortunately I did not see what they trees did color wise last fall, like I did for the cultivars in my above post.

Thanks again Lou,
Arktrees


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

  • Posted by j0nd03 7 west/central AR (My Page) on
    Thu, Aug 11, 11 at 11:11

*whistles*

That last one is quite the looker. That is EXACTLY the coloring I want.


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

j0nd03,
I neglect to put in my descriptor that that photo was taken in 2009 with a real camera, and not a cell phone camera. I bring that up because the colors of the cell phone pictures of trees that I'm sure is 'Autumn Splendor' was not far as it appears in these pictures. The last picture is definitely not the standard Sugar Maple, as it is graphed, and the leaves are thicker with a somewhat modified shape from the standard.

Last thing I want to point out about the Caddo selections is that they were selected from trees growing on OSU's campus in Stillwater for consistency of a showy fall display over many years. I would think if they are consistent there, that your climate typically would be milder and more favorable for fall color. I don't think you will go wrong with any of the selections your looking at, but the warmer climate consistency, and increased drought tolerance can't be overlooked.

Arktrees


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

These are beautiful trees, but now I am worried about going to a nursery to purchase anything like these. I don't want anything that has been grafted.

Since this is an issue for the original posters location and my own, could you guys post information on how to spot this sort of thing? So when us newbie purchasers go into a nursery we don't accidentally purchase a future hazardous tree? :)

I know I'd greatly appreciate this information, if it can be taught to a newb. LoL

~Tina


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

Woohoo that last one is magnificent! What I wouldn't do for some Fall color like that down here, hope you can find one like it John, what a display.


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

it is very important.. that if fall color is your ultimate goal.. that you go buy your tree when it is in full color.. no real relying on 'tags names' ... if it is that important ...

but that isnt much of a problem ... since it will then be dormant.. and planting can easily.. and properly follow ...

ament.. start your own post... so answers come directly to you ... and specify what tree you are interested in ...

as to arks pix.. i am a little leery of said GIANT tree in said tiny pot ... personally.. i would not buy it ... i would think ..... in that pot.. about half that size would be proper ...

and.. as usual ... would bet a nickle.. that the smaller would outgrow the larger transplant in 5 years ...

again.. think about this... a tree is said to be twice as big underground as above ... looking at that tree in that pot ... whats your best guess ... the rootmass 1/10 of the seen part ???? ... and if not.. its got two miles of roots going around and around in the pot ....

and Jon .... if momma is the problem with proper tree selection.. good luck with all that .... just make her happy .. and perhaps .... repeatedly suffer the consequences

ken


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

FWIW,
Ken, I agree that the John Pair is in a pot that is too small. Which is pretty much the norm, and it doesn't seem to matter the size of the tree, the pot is always too small. Also I wanted to point of to anyone that may find this thread later, that the "Caddo" ecotype of Sugar Maple, to which both 'Autumn Splendor' and 'John Pair' belong, do not grow as large as standard Sugar Maples, so that they can go into a smaller space. IIRC, they get to about 30-35' high and wide, but anyone looking at these cultivars should check that.

Arktrees


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

ghostlyvision,

I wonder if those Bigtooth maple (our own Texas Sugar maple) from Central Texas would produce that kind of fall color in Houston. You'd have to drive all the way to Love Creek Nursery to pick out best fall color during the winter.

Here is a link that might be useful: Love Creek Nursery


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

Thanks for the link Lou, boy those sure are beautiful trees! And after this barn-burner of a summer, going up to the Hill Country for a day (or three) sounds heavenly. :)


 o
RE: First storm damaged tree, help please

GV, apparently, I had lost my train of thought and typed winter instead of fall when to go to the Hill Country! :)

The overnight temperature in Houston may be a bit higher due to being close to the coast and urban heat island so who knows how fall color would turn out. My mother has some 'Fire Dragon' shantung maples in Houston and they all turned red/red orange every fall for the past 4 years.


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Trees Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Please review our Rules of Play before posting.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here