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| I've never been a fan of planting very large trees for many reasons, but may do so in this case.
Since a 3" or bigger caliper tree can weigh a ton or more, I'm guessing this isn't a one or two man job. Do nurseries that carry such trees normally deliver? If so, can they drop them for me into a pre-dug and pre-prepared planting hole, but let me finish the job? I guess I don't trust a group of 22 year old hired hands to do the job right, but I don't have the equipment to transport them or lift the tree into the hole. |
Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by strobiculate none (My Page) on Fri, Aug 3, 12 at 10:53
| Q: why are you asking a third party about the services that may or not be offered by an independent entity? Whatever we may say here...makes no difference if your chosen place of business does or does not offer a service. For what it's worth, after working for twenty years in nurseries, yes, the will deliver. Yes, the will be more than happy to place it beside a hole, in the hole, whatever it takes to make ya happy. And they don't mind you want to be involved or the job done right. They do mind third party busybodies who seem to think that any one who chooses to be employed by a nursery is a nincompoop. Wouldn't you? |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Fri, Aug 3, 12 at 12:05
| heres how you do it ... you walk in.. find manager.. not the yard punk ... wave cash under their noses.. and suggest it is theirs .. IF THEY DELIVER IT TO THE HOLE THAT WILL BE READY FOR IT ... if they say no.. walk on by ... see link.. open in new window ... if they say OK.. then discuss the parameters of access ... depth.. height.. etc .... in this economy.. anyone who will pass up a couple hundred/thousand bucks is nuts .... BTW.. do impress with them.. that once the plant is in the hole ... and leveled.. and burlap and hardware is removed.. you can and will take care of the rest, presuming you can w/o impacting the warranty [that is the real rub] so do discuss any impact with warranty ... ken ps: and do understand.. if you do have to spend an extra $$$ for delivery.. it will be a good investment to avoid hernia or disc surgery ... and if you do have to pay.. just go a caliper smaller ... and spend extra for delivery ... this is not a place to cheap out.. and try to save a buck.. IMHO ... pps: i dont understand .. and skipped the whole 'need' for a 3 inch caliper tree ... [perhaps you ought to start a new post on the wisdom of choosing between.. one.. two.. and 3 inch caliper trees ...] |
Here is a link that might be useful: link
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- Posted by wisconsitom 4/5 WI (My Page) on Fri, Aug 3, 12 at 12:07
| Hair, around here, most large transplanting is done by firms with tree spades. As such, their typical operation is to pre-dig the hole in your yard-with the spade, take that soil away to the nursery where your new tree will be dug, transported, and placed into the hole. I don't get involved with such very often as it just doesn't particularly interest me. I'm a huge and long-term fan of transplanting smaller stock. But having said that, it would be incorrect to state that this business model is lacking in success for the customer. As in all things, it depends...on a host of factors, very much including aftercare. As to pre-dug large material, no question that as a do-it-yourself project, it ranks high on the difficulty scale. +oM |
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- Posted by hairmetal4ever Z7 MD (My Page) on Fri, Aug 3, 12 at 13:05
| The idea would be an attempt to replace a ~6" caliper tree that fell in a storm with something reasonably large, FYI. |
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- Posted by hairmetal4ever Z7 MD (My Page) on Fri, Aug 3, 12 at 13:07
| wisconsitom, if they use a tree spade, is there anyway to 'prep' a larger planting hole in the way that is normally recommended by almost anyone you talk to? Or is this a case where you just drop it in almost like a puzzle piece that fits right in and pray for the best? |
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- Posted by hairmetal4ever Z7 MD (My Page) on Fri, Aug 3, 12 at 13:17
| This thread from here on GW illustrates my concern: |
Here is a link that might be useful: Planting with tree spade
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| I'm sorry about the loss of your tree. But I still think that trying to replace it with such a large transplant is unwise. A much smaller tree will have a very short establishment time and begin growing by leaps and bounds while your big guy will be spinning its wheels for ages before it begins to grow. In other words, that feeling of instant gratification will be short-lived. You can't replace that lost tree. But a smaller caliper selection will soon fill the void, and at a much fast pace than a larger tree. As to the tree spade question....the nursery will probably tell you that it's okay to spade the hole then bring the tree to the hole and plunk it in. It's NOT okay. The hole will need to be widened a great deal. Backhoes or bobcats are often used for that job. Anyway, what can we say or show you that might convince you to plant a smaller tree now? |
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- Posted by formandfoliage 9b (Sunset zone 15) (My Page) on Fri, Aug 3, 12 at 17:16
| I have moved several kinds of mature trees using a tree spade (well, the owner of the tree spade did it, not me!) and all were successful - about 12 trees total. One was Olea wilsonii, and you all clearly don't have olives where you live, but olives transplant very easily, you don't need much root ball, etc. They were 'popped out' and 'popped in' and never even blinked. Interestingly, however, and with more relevance to your situation, is that we moved two largish (over 3" diameter trunk) Carpinus carolineanas, one Acer rubrum and one Cercis canadensis. They all did fine, too. We moved a driveway and didn't want to just consign the trees to the mulch pile, so we decided to gamble on this - it cost around $1500, which was not cheap, but some of the olives were massive and would have been very costly to replace. Since the likelihood of the olives surviving was high, we went ahead with it, and did the others only because the marginal cost was not significant. To our delight they all did very well (this was about 8-10 years ago). As wisconsitom noted, when they use the tree spade, the first thing that they do is go to the site to which you want to move the tree, dig a hole with the spade, and deposit the soil in an intact mound on the side somewhere. Then they move the tree to its new spot, and ultimately take that mound of soil and deposit it back in the now empty hole. They have hydraulics and there is water used to 'grease' the edges of the spade so that it does not create a 'glazed' wall that makes it difficult for roots to penetrate. This wouldn't work for everyone, it wouldn't work for every tree, and it is not cheap. But I gotta tell you, our trees all did great and I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't not only seen it, but lived with them for many years. I think that the fact that the root ball is virtually undisturbed contributes to the success of the method, but some of you arborists/nursery folks out there might have other thoughts. I also think that it is more suited to moving exisiting in-ground trees than prepping a hole for a container tree. And I don't disagree with the general idea of preferring to plant smaller trees. I only post this because it sounds like most people on the thread have not had personal experience with tree spades, and they just don't sound like they are going to work very well but in our case it sure did. |
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| "The idea would be an attempt to replace a ~6" caliper tree that fell in a storm with something reasonably large, FYI." What species/cultivar of tree might you pick? I ask because the debate over 'plant big, slow to establish' vs. 'plant small, grows faster) has some up often before, and once factor that's been mentioned in the past is the growth rate of the tree impacting the likelihood of the smaller tree overtaking & out-distancing the larger. So, it may matter whether you're considering a Ginkgo vs. a Red Maple, for example. Richard. |
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- Posted by hairmetal4ever Z7 MD (My Page) on Fri, Aug 3, 12 at 22:24
| Sugar Maple . Usually, I do go with smaller trees, hence my relative lack of experience here. |
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| General guidelines to keep in mind when considering a large or a smaller transplant are cited in the attached link. |
Here is a link that might be useful: click here for great information
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| Moving/planting a 3" caliper tree is extremely common around here, and (at least when done correctly and with proper aftercare) the chances of success are very good. Yes, the above concerns are valid, and, ideally, (at least if I was wanting a tree for posterity) I'd choose a smaller specimen. But, for real-life lawn situations, planting that size tree ain't a big deal. Smaller trees do establish more quickly, adapt to their new location better, and grow more quickly. But, it would take a long time for most smaller specimens to catch up to a 3" or 4" caliper tree. That size tree is pretty commonly available around here as balled and burlapped specimens. I would only expect a tree of that size to be delivered by tree spade if it were grown very near. If I were moving one from one side of a lawn to another, a tree spade would be great, but that's not how most nurseries bring trees in. |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Sat, Aug 4, 12 at 11:02
| go smaller.. until your budget will allow full installation ... and at least a 2 year warranty ... so maybe a 2.5 will allow such.. or a 2 inch.. etc ... ken |
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- Posted by hairmetal4ever Z7 MD (My Page) on Sat, Aug 4, 12 at 11:02
| When it comes to the "doing it right" concern, I guess I've known too many people who had the nursery plant for them, only to find, three years later when they rip their dead tree out, that they never removed the wire basket, rope, or burlap, or did a halfway or very poor job of it. |
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| Yep, and even the better nurseries (at least the ones that have been around the longest and seem to have a large following) often cannot be relied upon to do things correctly. Some are even very resistant to doing it correctly even if asked. They've been doing it their way for years, the trees don't usually die during the warranty period, and they plan to keep doing that way. Some are so set in their ways that they would rather not get a sub-contract job, that requires them to do it right, than change what they perceive as the tried-and-true way. On the other hand, carefully reviewing the process, before the contract is signed, and being present at the installation is much more likely to get you a good job. |
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- Posted by hairmetal4ever Z7 MD (My Page) on Sat, Aug 4, 12 at 11:54
| I guess I'm just that d***head customer who would stand there at the planting hole, look at the guy and say "I don't care what has always worked for you, I just paid you $XXXX for these trees and you'll do it the way I tell you to". |
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- Posted by wisconsitom 4/5 WI (My Page) on Sat, Aug 4, 12 at 19:01
| Hair, sorry for the late response-was gone. The most important thing in my mind is that once the spaded tree is placed in it's new spot, a rototiller be used to loosen up a band of soil around the perimeter of the newly-placed cone of soil, ie rootball. This band of worked-up soil is then mulched along with the rest of the job and helps to provide a "breakout zone" for newly emerging roots. As I said at the outset, this is not my favorite way to work with trees, but honestly, I've seen hundreds of successful transplants done this way. I know you said sugar maple, but as a sidenote, I think tree spade planting of larger stock can be especially successful with conifers. Even beyond most other trees, conifers have an especially shallow pancake root system generally and this lends itself to success with this method. +oM |
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- Posted by viburnumvalley z5/6 KY (My Page) on Sat, Aug 4, 12 at 21:08
| As do many maples, especially if they've been properly prepared for transplantation at larger calipers. Many millions of trees have been successfully transplanted via tree spade. Most every B&B tree is spaded into its wire basket. So, while it can be less than sensitive to the treatment of the cut end of the tree's roots, in and of itself the spade isn't the problem. Above, the specific problem has been identified: lack of loosened soil into which the transplanted tree must now be re-established. And while there are those that pontificate about the tree spade being the devil, I'll pontificate about simple lack of knowledge about how trees recover from transplantation being the problem - amongst the general consuming public. You know the species: Caveat emptor... You can do a crappy job transplanting a tree in bare root form, container condition, or B&B (solely burlap or with wire basket). If you scrimp on the loosened soil surrounding the extent of the tree's root system, I define that as crap. Lots and lots and lots of transplanted plants are dropped into holes like so many corks - not so different than that tree spade work illustrated above. Every one of these situations can be corrected, in a similar fashion to +oM's description above. I'd suggest to do what I used to be responsible for doing lo these many years ago, on 100s of 90" tree spade transplants (when I was much more fluent in manual shovel operation). Dig to the depth of primary functional roots - 18-24" should do in most cases - all the way around the spaded tree (or whatever your situation may be) and loosen the soil in this area for as far away from the spaded tree as you feel like digging. As in a garden, more loosening will be appreciated by the tree. With all this loosened soil around the plug, settling loosened soil into any air gaps of the plug is simplified, and moisture penetration into the zone of new root growth is amplified. |
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