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pamchesbay

ISO Advice on Reforestation Projects - Big and not so big

Pamchesbay
16 years ago

John: Thanks for explaining how you approached and implemented your reforestation project.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/trees/msg0813553914001.html?20

I've been planning a less intensive reforestation project on about 3 acres. About half is open field, the rest is overgrown and inaccessible so I've been clearing that - a slow process. The discussion is causing me to reconsider spacing of trees. I knew 8 x 8 or 10 x 10 is recommended for commercial timber, mainly pines, grown here. I thought that was too tight for a non-commercial wooded area - and I couldn't imagine planting 1000s of seedlings. Maybe I need to rethink this.

If anyone has done a similar project, I'd be interested in your thoughts about trees - varieties, spacing, sources.

The Virginia Dept of Forestry has an excellent seedling program. I bought native dogwood and beach plum seedlings from the NH State Nursery last spring. They had long dense roots, about 15-18 inches long. You couldn't plant them with a tree planting bar unless you trimmed the roots. I was reluctant to do that so I used a shovel. If I should plant more densely, I'd like to know about easier, faster ways to do it. I'd also like to start with larger seedlings.

You mentioned using musser water gel. I searched and read about a root slurry organic polymer that holds water so I assume that's the same thing.

Yes, at age 32, you are a kid. At 62, I have a few years on you. I want to see part of this project come together in my lifetime. I'm fortunate to live in coastal Virginia - trees, shrubs, nearly everything grows very fast here.

I love the physical work. I may need to work on patience.

Comments (62)

  • johnstaci
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    alabamatreehugger- Yes, I'm pushing the limits on planting shortleaf pine and some others on my list in nw Missouri. However, Guy Sternberg has had luck growing at his place in Illinois - due east of my place. The longleafs have almost all survived the first year. From what I've read, they look like clumps of grass the first 3 years, then start to add height at a decent pace. If you grow these, I'm curious what sort of growth rate you get in younger trees. If mine do grow to be nice specimens, I'm expecting ice storms to take out some of them due to the long needles holding a large amount of ice.

    The same questions apply for the sugar pines I'm planting. It is a very rare but cool tre. It is the tallest of all pines growing up to 200 ft tall with pinecones 1 to 2 feet long. I started these from seed last fall in a platning bed near the house where I can water them easily. Right now I have around 30 seedlings that are about 4" tall. I plan to transplant 1/2 this fall and 1/2 next fall.

    I think it's fun to push the limits - the worst thing that could happen is losing out a few inexpensive seedlings. I do, however, verify all non-native trees I plant are non-invasive prior to beore planting.

  • Pamchesbay
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    John: Spruce is right. Your list is incredible. I saved it on my computer and Palm Pilot. I also agree that the world might be a better place if someone wrote an article about how to do this. You are the best person for the job - you are living this project, no one knows all the details better than you. (You've also written several lengthy posts here that could form the basis of an article or book).

    In the meantime, I'll copy your list into a text file and save it. :-)

    I still find it amazing that you planted thousands of (potentially) huge trees like white oaks in such narrow quarters. While I understand how his works in reforesting v. growing specimen trees, packing trees so close still amazes me. I need to find a place that is going through reforestation so I can see this for myself. It's hard to imagine how little seedlings, planted so close, will look in 5 years, 10 years, etc. (I know I see this in our forests, but it's still a stretch)

    Since you've kept detailed records, have you drawn conclusions about which trees are doing best at this point? I ask this question because I am curious about your project and because of the post by Gottagarden. Her evergreens are doing great but that her deciduous trees are struggling, primarily because of ravages by animals. I wonder if this is a common experience for people who plant large numbers of seedlings.

    Spruce: you sound a bit discouraged about the likelihood a NS grove succeeding here. I admit that I share your doubts. The U of Arkansas has a list of trees on their campus. The person who compiled the list mentioned several reasons why spruce and fir are so difficult to grow there ... although she/ he continues to try.

    This brings me to another question. If I punt on planting seedlings for a grove of NS, what are my alternatives (other than loblollies)? Eastern White pines? Bald cypresses? Dawn redwoods? Others? For a grove, I'd prefer conifers that don't lose their needles in winter. Should I post a message on the conifer forum - I

    "ISO Appropriate Conifers for a Grove in VA (but not loblollies)?"

    Thanks and good night!

  • alabamatreehugger 8b SW Alabama
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    John, I planted four longleaf pines in the fall of 2004. They were in their grass stage then. They didn't do much the first year while they were getting their roots established, but now three of them are about 4ft tall, and one is about 7ft tall. I think the snow will be your #1 worry. Some of the needles on mine are 17 inches long. I imagine they would collect lots of snow. I planted six more seedlings last winter.

    I'll add a link to website devoted to this tree below.

  • spruceman
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pam:

    I think you misunderstood me--I was not saying that I didn't think a NS gtove would do well there--my point was that I don't think I can offer any good advice about seed sources for seedlings that will do better than others for your area. There is just no good information.

    I really don't know how well NS will do there, but earlier you said that you saw good NS growing in your area. My original thought had been that you were too far south, but I was only guessing. I don't know if you noticed, but in spite of my enthusiasm for NS, I don't usually recommend it for areas much further south than central VA. But I don't have any real good information about what the limits are. I would not take anything from Arkansas as applying to your area. Also, sometimes NS may fail in a given area not because of climate, but because of soils. I suspect that in some places NS doesn't do well because the soil magnesium is low. That can be remedied easily.

    Sometimes I am really surprized at where I find good NS growing. For example, my timberland is on the Allegheny Plateau. To get there from here I drive west on route 50. After I have passed through Romney, WV, the rain shadow effect of the appalachians, and specifically the Allegheny Plateau, becomes more and more pronounced. About 15 or more miles of Romney the average annual rainfal is reduced about 6 inches or more and the area is really terribly drought prone. So there should not be many, if any good NS, right? Well, wrong! There are lots of perfectly lovely NS with dense weeping foliage. They are significantly smaller than they are in many other places, but they are really, really nice--no really, really beautiful. These trees are actually nicer than many up on the Allegheny Plateau. Go figure!

    So, if you have good NS in your area and want to have a NS grove, go ahead. And I would not be too fussy about the seed source for your seedlings--I am just admitting that i don't know enough to really help, and I doubt that anyone does. Just get a couple of sources and plant as many as possible (as close as possible) in view of the variability from tree to tree in whatever source you might use.

    Maybe you could start with a relatively small grove if you want--even 1/4th an acre can make a nice grove. I would never recommend several acres without having better information about the potential for success.

    --Spruce

  • johnstaci
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Spruce-

    I've had several (hundreds) of seedlings look like they were out for the count, but then to my surprise resprout from the base. I only wish conifers did the same. Never had the seedlings resprout from a couple feet out. However, since yours is a few year old and likely has a developed root system, this makes more sense. I would prune off one of the main shoots from the original tree and stake the other one so it is vertical. I would also cut the shoot/sucker off at the ground. The shoot/sucker will steal energy from the rest of the tree. Since you had 2 feet of growth on the original tree this year, I wouldn't give up on it.

    Pam-

    Not sure if I mentioned in a past post, but a co-worker did something similar on 5 acres 5-10 years ago. His trees are amazingly tall - some nearly 20'. The white oaks will definitely grow slower, but some will reach for the sky once the canopy starts to close.

    On my land, the deciduous are doing better than the conifers. Deer eat the white pines like candy- exactly like the conservation dept forester told me they would. I planted more white pines than any other tree, so a lot will make it, but they will be knocked back a little each year by deer browsing. My land backs up to a 7000 acre lake surrounded by woodlands. The deer are thick! They nibble on the other trees a little, but nothing compared to the white pines. The rabbits like to cut off various trees too- a perfect 45 degree slice about 2 inches above ground. They seem to just leave the seedlings they cut off laying there without eating the top drives me nuts. That brings up another benefit of mowing - the shorter grass allows birds of prey to easily find the rabbits/mice. I have noticed a huge reduction in mice/rabbits since I started keeping the grass shorter. The hawks/kestrels start hovering when I mow knowing there will soon be a smorgasbord of rodents to snack on. I even have had a couple bald eagles land, but I dont think they eat mice/rabbits.

    As far as what trees are doing the best, it's hard to tell at this point as most are working on their root system. 5 years from know I will be able to provide a better answer. If you are asking which have the fastest growing rates to date, I would say the top 10 are sycamore, tulip tree, jack pine, loblolly pine, shortleaf pine, white pine, redbuds, river birch, and surprisingly the red cedars and walnuts are up there as well. I have several sycamores 6-8 feet tall. Will be curious to see how the slow release fertilizer works when I put it down next spring. I have 500 lbs of it sitting in my garage waiting for March to come around.

    John

  • bengz6westmd
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Alabama, 3 Longleaf pines from a NE Alabama seedling source are doing surprisingly well for me here in exposed conditions. Like Johnstaci says, my worry is wet snow/ice instead of outright cold. In the ~2 wks after I took the below pic, that one has lengthened its top needles two more inches & still going. They love the heat & humidity.

  • alabamatreehugger 8b SW Alabama
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here's a couple of my longleaf pines planted in '04.

  • bengz6westmd
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    alabama, very nice. Yours are alot faster than mine.

    They remind me so much of the deep south.

  • Pamchesbay
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Spruce: I found some advice about NS right under my nose. I was talking to the folks at the office about the NS grove. One person's family had a nursery for about 15 years. She said they grew NS without problems for 10 years. She said "they will do fine down here - there is more wind and it's cooler."

    I'll see if they remember where they got the seedlings. If they don't, I'll take your advice re: a 1/4 to 1/3 acre grove to start, get seedlings from the state, maybe Mussers and Lawyers. I went the the Lawyer Nursery site last night. What a place! When I clicked the "Spruce" button, I found they offer 13 varieties! I checked the different varieties - they offer a diverse selection of sizes, from Any thoughts about variety(ies) that would be most appropriate for this balmy climate?

    John: Many thanks for the list of trees that are doing well for you now. Many on your list do well here too.

    You do have critter problems. Why do the rabbits bite off the stems off seedlings if they aren't hungry or don't want the leaves? A note about bald eagles - while they prefer dead, dying or stolen fish, they are raptors and do eat small mammals, especially in the winter when fish are scarce.

    I have a question about the 500 lbs of fertilizer in your garage. Is fertilizing standard procedure when reforesting or are you trying to jump start your trees? Will you broadcast the fertilizer equally throughout or is it intended for specific types of trees or to correct specific deficiencies in the soil?

    Alabama - your long leaf pines are gorgeous! You say you planted them in 2004. Do you recall how tall they were at that time?

    Beng: I'm glad to hear that long leaf pines are doing well for you so far. I just read a disturbing report about the vanishing Arctic ice cap - it may be gone by 2030. As it continues to melt, this leads to more warming and other climate changes. Maybe we should all look into planting palms.

    Take care,
    Pam

  • spruceman
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pam:

    For another variety of spruce, go with Oriental. Now I am a Norway spruce lover, but I have to admit that if 100 people could see 10 of the best Norways, and 10 of the best Orientals, maybe 90% would choose the Oriental spruce. It is an absolutely outstanding conifer and I think it would make any conifer lover's top ten list. For me it is probably #2 or #3. It is not as hardy as Norway, not as drought resistant, and not as fast growing. In fact, the main reason I think it is not commonly offered is that as a seedling it is painfully slow growing. Later it can do 18 inches per year and can grow to 100 feet here in the US. In its native habitat it can grow to about 200', maybe just a little less than Norway. It is also like Norway spruce, very variable in form, especially in the density of foliage and the degree of weep of secondary branches. Here at the Virginia Arboretum there are a couple of nice specimens growing next to each other--both beautiful, but one has the most wonderful, dense weeping foliage.

    If the best you can find is Forest Farm 1 gallon, get three or four, but be prepared to watch them grow one or two inches per year for 3 to 5 years. If you can get one three feet or more tall, it should grow faster right away.

    These Oriental spruces are probably not the best for a grove, but for selected spots where you want an outstanding ornamental conifer.

    Three wonderful cultivars I have are "Gowdy," a very dense, moderately slow growing narrowly pyramidal tree. "Atrovirens," which has very dark green and shiny dense foliage. Like Gowdy, semi-dwarf. "Nutans"--maybe a bit faster growing with good weeping habit and irregular picturesque growth. Two or three "Nutans" together can be spectacular!

    So, overall why do I prefer NS? It is faster growing and is a more bold and majestic tree when large at its best. Oriental spruce is more refined, and if you wanted to have a place for a garden party, go with Oriental. A giant bold and majestic NS in that setting would not make the guests feel comfortable--NS are just too bold and strong, erupting in such an unrestrained fashion from the earth, as they do! Run for your lives, you sissies! Ha Ha!!

    --Spruce

  • alabamatreehugger 8b SW Alabama
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pam, my longleafs were still in the "grass stage" when I planted them, so I'd say a foot at best. It is in that stage when they are establishing their root systems most rapidly, so I don't recommend buying them after they have already started growing in height.

  • Pamchesbay
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Alabama: Thanks for telling me this - I didn't know root systems get established when they are so small. Is this the case with most pines? Conifers?

    Spruce: I will definitely look into Oriental Spruces. One more question - do you have recommendations re: NS species? The Lawyer Nursery site listed 13 varieties - I don't have a clue.

    Many thanks!
    Pam

  • spruceman
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pam:

    The thirteen varieties of spruce that Lawyer has are species different from Norway spruce. The only spruce I recommend for a large grove or forest planting is NS (Picea abies).

    They also list quite a few varieties of seedlings and transplants. I recommend the largest of the seedlings--the transplants are harder for you to plant because of their more stiff root structure. Also, traditionally many transplants were the runts dug as seedlings that were too small to sell or were left over and planted back again to grow some more before being re-dug to be sold. My fear is that you will get too many genetically weaker trees if you use transplants. I know some nurseries no longer recycle weak seedlings to develop transplants, Carino is among these. I don't know Lawyer's practices in this regard.

    --Spruce

  • alabamatreehugger 8b SW Alabama
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Most conifers are tap rooted and don't like to be transplanted. I know there are some reports of longleaf having a taproot almost 3ft long while still in the grass stage, although that's in a natural setting and in sandy soil..

  • Pamchesbay
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks guys. Your advice helps more than you know. Spruce, I'll go with seedlings for Picea abies. In addition to the 2 & 3 year old seedlings from VA, Mussers has two categories of 3 yr old seedlings, 8-16" and 10-20." Not much difference in price when you order 100 so I'll go with the larger ones.

    Alabama, Your long leaf pines are lovely. My friend whose family had a nursery said they grow well here and are beautiful. I went to the link for Long leaf Alliance, links to part of the site are not active but the forum is active and looks like an interesting place.

    One day, I'll know enough and have enough experience to help others too. Many thanks.

  • lkz5ia
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Unless you've ordered conifers from musser forests before and were satisfied, I wouldn't suggest ordering a huge $ amount the first time around. I have never had luck with their conifers, yet carino nurseries, I've had no problem with.

  • Pamchesbay
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Spruce: OK, you got my interest with your comments about Picea orientalis (garden parties???) so I'm reading up about it and also about Picea omorika - both are beautiful and would make wonderful specimen trees and perhaps a small group of 3 or so.

    How to decide? Since we have wandered away from reforestation, I may bring this up on the Conifer forum later on. It's cool and breezy now, so it's time to plant some trees!

  • spruceman
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ikz:

    What was the problem with the trees from Musser? I have not ordered anything except a couple of plugs of Ravenna grass for several years. I always got first class stuff, and the Norway spruce seemed to me to be a good strain. I have also ordered from Carino, but the year I ordered, the strain has not turned out to perform very well after about 8 years, so that is why I suggested Musser. But as for the condition of rhe plants when I received them, the Musser and the Carino were both excellent, in my opinion.

    Anyway, if you have a more recent experience, please share.

    There is also a website that rates mail order nurseries. Musser's ratings seem OK, but a few places get better ratings, but may not sell the same things.

    --Spruce

  • johnstaci
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pam- In reference to your question "I have a question about the 500 lbs of fertilizer in your garage. Is fertilizing standard procedure when reforesting or are you trying to jump start your trees? Will you broadcast the fertilizer equally throughout or is it intended for specific types of trees or to correct specific deficiencies in the soil?" :

    The fertilizer product I'm using is specially made and only available through select nurseries. It is Scott's slow release field fertilizer. It is 27-3-6 with IDBU. 23% is slow release. This is the best slow release fertilizer I could find in large quantities.

    Since from my research Nitrogen is nearly always the limiting nutrient for trees (however nearly impossible to test for), I am adding it to all trees in small quantities to all trees. I will add 1 tablespoon per tree over a 2' diameter of the root zone. That diameter will increase by about a foot every year. I will try and calibrate my "pinches" when I spread so they are close to one tablespoon.

    I researched the fertilizer tablets, but they will only provide benefit to one area of the root zone. Spreading the granules like I am will provide benefit to the entire root zone and it is cheaper than the tablets.

    Like I have mentioned, I have contacted many government run and privately owned nurseries as well as university soil testing labs on this subject. In order to give my trees a boost in the early years, the consensus is this is the best way to go. Most of the trees could survive without, but they would be far behind the growth of trees fertilized with slow release nitrogen.

    John

  • Pamchesbay
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    As usual, you've done your research - and that's one of the keys to success.

    I usually add a slow release fertilizer when I plant but do not continue over the long haul. In a book about Southern Gardening, the authors quoted a nurseryman who said many trees will grow 2 or 3 times faster if you water regularly and feed with a quality slow release fertilizer 3 times a year - fall (after frost, never before), in early Spring (as leaf buds break) and again 2 months later.

    I haven't done my own research on this subject so that's something to put on the list.

  • Pamchesbay
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yesterday, I met with our local forester. Nice man. When I told him about my plan to reforest the land over a period of a few years, he offered a tree planting machine. I can't recall how many seedlings he said we could plant in an hour or how long it takes to plant an acre. The bottom line is that two people could do it in one day. This discussion is causing me to rethink my plan but I'm not ready to abandon it.

    I told him I wanted to do a mixed planting of conifers, hardwoods, and under story trees. He said this was challenging because our local pines (mostly loblollies) grow so fast, they crowd out the hardwoods. He recommended planting two rows of pines, then 1 row of hardwoods, then 2 rows of pines, etc. 10 x 10. As the pines get bigger, thin and keep thinning. He recommended planting the conifers / pines with the tree planting machine first. After the pines are in, plant the hardwood seedlings with a tree bar. He offered to come down for a site visit, make suggestions, etc.

    John, you mentioned planting in curves. Can you write a little more about this? Do you mean S curves across the field? Planting in straight lines will look unnatural here so I want to do this differently. Did you mark the spots for your seedlings in advance?

    As everyone here emphasized, he stressed the need for weed control, said this is very hard to do here. I can't use a pre-emergent herbicide like Envoy or OUST - apparently, you have to be certified.
    He recommended tree guards for the hardwoods to protect them from wind, sun, critters. He said the forestry service has had very good luck with tree guards, they create a sort of greenhouse effect, seedlings grow faster, they lose fewer trees.

    He said root slurry wasn't essential because we are usually pretty wet (a couple of weeks ago, he stuck some loblollies in bone dry dirt (we are having a drought), they kept on growing like nothing happened. I may use the slurry anyway - it can't hurt and may help. Planting will probably be done in December.

    John, you mentioned advice from Guy Sternberg. I have his book about Native Trees, it's exceptional, but he doesn't discuss techniques. I've searched the Internet for articles by him about reforesting, came up dry.

    I told the forester that I was also interested in small single species groves - probably Norway Spruce and longleaf pines. He said the Virginia Forestry program would offer longleaf pine seedlings for the first time this year (and there is a 15 acre stand of VERY small longleaf pines about 5 miles from my house). But the Va Forestry Dept published their 2007-2008 catalog this week, no mention of longleaf pines. I can try NC. He didn't recommend NS, said they did better at higher altitudes. I may try a small grove anyway.

    As I said in the beginning, my conversation with the forester is causing me to rethink my plans. I don't want to make massive mistakes. We have a business and are on the road too much (not retired). I don't know if I'll have enough time for aftercare, esp. for weed control. Maybe this new idea can work - - I'd love to get most of the trees planted this winter.

    What do you think? Is it reasonable to reforest appox. 3 acres at one time, given the demands of work and life?

    Many thanks,
    Pam

  • spruceman
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pam:

    It is good that you contacted your local forest service forester. Definately take him up on his offer to come and give you some on-site consutation. However, like everything else, these foresters all have their own personal strong and weak points, so everything you are told may not be "gospel" or needs to be accepted without question. There are two project foresters that serve my county, and they have their differences in how they would write up forest stewardship plans, etc. They are both very good, but the fact that they can differ in some important ways is something that needs to be kept in mind.

    As for the Norway spruce recommendation--I think you remember that I was reluctant to recommend a grove until you told me that you saw some good NS growing in your area. But loblolly is clearly the best choice for your area, and I think that even if NS would grow well, I doubt any forester would want it to be known that he would recommend planting them in goves in your area when for "forestry purposes," there is loblolly available, which according to all practical measures is so much the better choice.

    But if I were in your area and saw some growing at least fairly well, I would try at least a small grove. I think overall it has to be ranked, as a "forest conifer," very near the top of any list for pure unadulterated beauty of form, foliage and general magnificence.

    Another tree that is near the top of the list, which I haven't discussed with you, is white pine--I can't remember from all the discussions of your project if that has been considered. It is like NS a tree that may not be obviously adapted to your area as well as loblolly, but if you see them growing well in your area, you should try some.

    I just got back from my first overnight stay at my tree farm (4 nights) in a very long time. I did some walking around in my NS and white pine groves. They are only 40 to 50 years old (youngest to oldest) and are about half grown, but boy oh boy are these towering trees a joy to walk among. The tallest white pines are about 100 feet tall, and even those that are about 45 years old are 90+ feet. But half grown or not, these trees are TOWERING. And then the wind blows through them the sights and sounds are amazing--the tall trunks swaying and their curtains/tiers of green waving in the wind. There is nothing like it. Some people like to look out on a large expanse of perfectly even green grass, but I will go with a grove of trees any time. There is one special group of five white pine trees that I like to visit every time I walk through that part of my timberland. They are growing very close together--6 or 8 feet--and are so big I can't nearly get my arms around them. As I look straight up between them I could swear they go all the way up to heaven--the very tops just fade away up into the sky.

    And the fall color season is fast approaching--I could never describe the beauty of my forest, especially with all the sugar and red maples, at this time of year. I have been thinning and caring for this forest for about 35 years and every tree is a marvel in one way or another (or in a number of ways all together). I signed hunting permission forms for a group of hunters this last Saturday. One of them was a repeat for several years, the other three were new. The one who was a repeat was telling the others about my trees and said that they will be excited when they see my timber--it is the "finest in the area!," he said.

    Well, it will be a while before your trees tower like those on my timberland, but it will be a pure joy for you to work among them and watch them grow.

    --Spruce

  • Pamchesbay
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Spruce:

    I'm glad that you were able to visit your tree farm and that your trees are doing so well - "the finest in the area." High praise from hunters who know forests. I know it will be many years before my trees tower, I just want to get started. After talking with the forester, I have a few questions, but not so many as before.

    My goals are to plant hardwoods and pines in the most of the field, and to plant smaller groves of NS, and maybe EWP, longleaf pine, and bald cypress in locations adjacent to the main planting. When I mentioned a mixed planting of hardwoods and pines, the forester said this is hard to do.

    He recommended planting two rows of pines, then one row of hardwoods, then two rows of pines, etc., 10 x 10. He said pines grow faster than hardwoods so this may give the hardwoods some protection. He probably assumed I would use loblollies.

    I am more interested in other pines, less interested in more loblollies. John said white pine seedlings were favorites of deer in his reforestation area - this caused me to think about planting white pines closer to compensate for losses. The Va Seedling program offers 3 year old white pines this year - 3-0, 12-16" - 50/$55; 100/$60.

    Here are some questions for you:

    About pines: Would you use loblollies as the primary pine? Or, would you plant white pine and loblollies so you have two types of pines? Would you plant 10 x 10? Closer?

    About groves: I still plan to go forward with a small grove of NS, probably planted 6 x 6. How close would you plant white pines for a grove? The trees at your farm are growing close and healthy. The forester recommended planting bald cypress 8 x 8 or 8 x 6.

    When I asked about longleaf pines, he said the Va Seedling program will offer longleaf pines for the first time this year (the catalog doesn't list them so maybe the introduction was delayed). The Forestry Service has a mature stand of longleaf pines at Blackwater Preserve near Suffolk. He recommended longleaf pine seedlings in tubes. If VA doesn't offer them, I may be able to get them from NC - that's where VA obtained their seedlings.

    I'm trying to plan this in stages - what to do this year, next year, etc. I know the real work is not planting the seedlings, but caring for them over the next 2-3 years. I want to do a trial or test planting this year, see how much time the aftercare takes. That information will help with future planning.

    Spruce, thank you. Your enthusiasm, encouragement and advice is keeping me focused and moving forward.

    Take care,
    Pam

  • spruceman
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pam:

    Yes, your forester is right--as far as I can guess--that establishing a mixed hardwood and pine stand is hard to do. But here is my best guess as to the best method, and it will require some hard physical work. The plan to plant two rows of pines to one of hardwoods is probably a good idea, then what you will have to do is where you have some good growth of the hardwoods, cut down some of the pines that start to crowd the hardwoods. This is where the work comes in--and what may be some hard decisions--cutting down one tree to favor another when both are healthy is not always easy to do.

    I like the idea of the longleaf pines--they are a spectacular tree--the really, really long needles are a special feature. And they grow with a beautiful erect form. I am not sure how they will do in your area--I think their best and fastest growth is further south, but they should do fine. We actually have a few growing here at the VA Arboretum here just east of Winchester. They don't look really good here, but you are in a much more favorable location for them.

    For the pines a spacing of 10 X 10 is probably fine. Closer planting is sometimes advised because an early pulpwood thinning is planned. But you don't want to do that. And 10 X 10 should be close enough to encourage tall straight growth without allowing enough room for heavy bracches to form when the trees are too young. Then as they get larger you can have a thinning done to make the spacing 20 X 20 or more. But starting 20 X 20 for a forest planting will not result in very good trees in the final stand.

    I recommend the 6 X 6 for the NS because of the variability in vigor and form of most NS strains. That close spacing gives you enough trees to ensure that you will have a lot of the best ones. But for the pines there is not so much variability. There is some good variability with white pine, but not nearly so much as NS, and my guess is that loblolly has even less variation from tree to tree.

    With the white pines--again, look around and see what you see growing in your area. I would probably not mix the loblollies and white pines (or NS for that matter) because the loblollies, especially in your area, will in all probablilty grow so much faster than the white pines. I would plant a white pine grove seperately. Perhaps the white pines and the NS can grow together. Most often they can, And they do at my timberland, but if there is a weak strain of white pine, the NS will overwhelm it. The white pine will have to be protected in some way. NS has a high resistance to deer browsing. But all trees can be destroyed by buck rubbing.

    I am also not sure that the loblollies should be mixed with the longleaf. You need to check on this, but my guess is that in your area the loblollies will grow too fast for the longleaf. Further south this may not be the case.

    Yes, I think loblollies are probably your best pine tree. I know you want other varieties, but I don't know of anything that we have not already discussed. If there are other possibilities, maybe your forester will know. Of course you can look around your area and see if you see any other kinds of trees that seem to be doing well and that you like. I assume for the hardwoods you will have red maple, tuliptree and sweetgum, at the very least (for color). And I bet black walnut will do well there. Hickories are wonderful, but are slow. Maybe some seedling pecans! Have you seen the pair at Mt Vernon??

    As for my special group of towering trees growing close together--they can do this because on all sides of the group there is ample room for the trees' crowns to develop. Not white pines, nor any other tree for that matter, can grow so large and tall growing that close together unless the group is 5 trees or less and has good room on the outsides of the group. But for variety, maybe you can keep in mind the idea that a close group of three to five trees can be an especially beautiful thing. And in a dense stand, there is no reason why two or three trees cannot be close together if there is room on the other sides. My groves of pine and spruce were planted as Christmas tree farms and were originally spaced very close together. Then many of the trees were cut for Christmas trees, and some others were dug for nursery stock, leaving me with a lot of irregularly spaced trees. There are a lot of places where I have two very close together (3 feet) and these pairs area an attractive feature of the groves.

    --Spruce

  • wisconsitom
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Spruceman, I am seriously jealous of what you've accomplished on your timberland. I've had much the same dream for decades now, but managed to not get going on it, what with working, living in general, and specifically dissipating much time and energy in a music sideline. BUT........my wife and I are finally getting serious about acquiring some property. It might not be much in acreage, but I really need some place to plant my favorite trees.

    Congrats again. You've created something nice for your own enjoyment and made the world a better place too!

    +oM

  • alabamatreehugger 8b SW Alabama
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In my area Loblolly pine mixes well with hardwoods, but it's about the only one. Longleaf, Shortleaf, and Slash pines seem to hate being near hardwoods.

  • spruceman
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pam and all the others of you who are interested in establishing groves:

    Planting the trees is one thing--big work. Caring for the seedlings until they get above the grass and weed competition is another thing--big work.

    But down the road is an even bigger "issue." What do you do as the trees begin to get tall and need thinning, and pruning? Big work? Well, maybe gigantic work. Starting a stand of trees from scratch in an "even aged" fashion, especially conifers, is not something many people, except a few nuts like me, would want to get involved in.

    So what is "down the road," so to speak. Lets take the Norway spruce planting as an example. There is some good news. Norway spruce (and white pine and I believe loblolly pine also) stands do not "stagnate" as the trees grow and become crowded. Some kinds of trees , such as red pine, will all grow together without the stronger trees "expressing dominance"-- that is all the trees will compete equally, getting taller, skinnier, and weaker, and growing more and more slowly and becoming susceptible to disease and insect attack. These stands must be regularly thinned to maintain health and good growth.

    Norway spruce, in my opinion based on some good observations over the years, expresses dominance as well or better than any other tree I know. Here is what that means: if you plant a stand of NS at any close spacing whatsoever, the stronger trees will express dominance, the weaker slower growing trees will die, and there is nothing you need to do to have an absolutely magnificent stand of timber in 60 or 75 or 100 years, or whatever. If the long-term goal is just to grow the best trees, plant and leave them alone. Ultimately on very good growing sites the mature stand will have trees 150 feet or more in height and spaced 25 to 30 feet apart. Of course some trees will be close together and some will be spaced more widely.

    Now there is one advantage to doing a special kind of limited selective thinning--you can thin out the poorly formed and forked trees that are taking up growing space from other trees. Apart from this thinning has limited value long-term. The only other value I can think of is if the weaker trees are cut and the material left as compost on the forest floor, it can add to the available nutrients sooner.

    But here is the problem. If you plant NS 6 X 6, what you have after a very few years is an impenetrable mess of tree trunks and dead and dying lower branches so you will not be able to walk into this stand of trees at all. If you wait 60 years some of the dead trees will begin to fall over, and some of the dead branches will begin to break away, and you will be able to pick your way through. This is what the stand at Glady, WV was like when I first saw it. But when I made my way into this stand and was able to look up through all the dead lower limbs and all the dead trees that were outgrown, I was absolutely stunned at what I saw--the most beautiful, incredibly towering stand of trees with weeping green curtains of foliage I ever imagined. Now I have traveled through the west, into the Douglas fir stands on the Olympic Peninsula, Sitka spruce in the Hoh River rain forest, the redwoods of Northern CA, the Noble fir stands of the flanks of Mt. Rainier, and any other stand of magnificent evergreens you want to name, but I had never seen anything better than this.

    But, but, but, I am not sure that everyone would have seen what I saw. I had to use a special kind of mental/visual filter to screen out all the dead limbs and dead and dying smaller trees, many of which had fallen over and were leaning up against other trees, etc. To many eyes this stand would have been one horrendous visual mess.

    So, here is the problem--if you want to plant a stand of trees and just look at them from the outside for many, many years, fine. But if you want to make the stand something you can walk through and look up into the towering tree tops, you have a lot of really, really tough work to do. Now I always enjoyed it and always had my eyes on the result, so it was fine for me, but I would guess very few people would feel the same way.

    The first time I saw my Norway spruce groves there was no way I could walk into them. The trees were about 20 feet tall and the lower branches were so think I had to cut my way in with pliers, so to speak. Once in it was very slow work. I had to limb and cut off the smaller overtopped dead and dying trees. I had to cut off all the dead lower limbs of the trees that I was not yet ready to thin out. To prune these trees to a little higher than 7 feet or so I often had to cut off more than 100 limbs. I was curious, so I actually counted sometimes. NS are especially hard to prune not only because there are more branches than on white pines, but also because at each node where the major branches cluster, they dont all grow on the same plane as do the whorls of branches on white pine. Then as the trees grow taller I have to cut the limbs off with pole pruners, higher and higher. I have a few white pines to 40+ feet, most to 32 or higher, and for the NS I am a little behind. The highest are to about 34, and most to about 26.

    Now all this work, especially since I have done something like 20 acres this way, could be considered absolutely crazy. But I have been doing it for about 22 years. Much of it has been done after dinner for an hour or so an evening. Sometimes I have made a section of work a priority and stayed with it for a week or two. It is an especially good job for wet days. But as I go higher and higher there are limits to what a persons arms can take, and as I get up to 25 or more feet, the back of my neck seems like it will break from all the bending back and looking upward!

    But this is only a part of the work--the other part is the thinning. I have thinned my stands of spruce and pine about 5 times since I bought the land. I never used a chainsaw until I was about 50 years old, but since then, I have become something of an expert, not only at felling large hardwood trees for timber, but also at thinning stands of pines and spruces, which is a different kind of thing. So it is never too late to learn. But this can be tough work. One problem is because I am not thinning in rows, the trees often fall and lean up against other trees. I know how to get these down. I wont go into all the details here but it takes time and some strength. Then once they are down they should be limbed, or there will be long-lasting obstructions and "visual pollution" on the forest floor. If one plants in rows and has the trees thinned commercially, this work is eliminated, but the result is not as good. There will be root damage, trunk scrapes, and thinning in rows always results in having some of the best trees cut and worst ones left.

    So...plant groves. I enjoy mine more than I could ever explain. But the work is really, really hard, and I am not going to give a flat recommendation to everyone to hurry up and get started planting these groves. But I have done about 20 acres. You can have something really beautiful if you have a half acre of pines and another half acre of spruces. That should be doable.

    --Spruce

  • Pamchesbay
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Spruce:

    Thank you. You educate, encourage, inspire, and temper this with clear, frank descriptions of the difficulties we should anticipate. I think everyone who has been following this discussion must feel grateful to you for these lessons. You are a very good writer so reading your posts is a pleasure. I encourage you to consider publishing your writing. You describe the steps to complete a practical job so clearly. At other times, your prose reads like poetry.

    You've been patient with me and I appreciate it. At times, when I asked questions that were so similar to the questions asked a month or two earlier, you must have wondered "When is she going to get it?"

    Two days ago, I "discovered" the Silvics Manuals. I think you recommended them to others on this forum. They are wonderful - so much valuable information in one place.

    The questions asked and answered during the past few months came together in my mind this week. Some things I want to accomplish will require work arounds. Others may be more than I can accomplish on my own. It's early. I'll have answers to these questions in a few years.

    Alabama, thank you for asking John about the wisdom of growing long leaf pines in Missouri. When I saw the photo of your long leaf pine, I was amazed -- and curious. That photo opened my mind to other possibilities. I learned that the Virginia Dept of Forestry is attempting to establish / restore long leaf pines in the coastal area where they flourished a century ago. I learned that long leaf pines have different requirements than the pines I know. I guess you could say they are high maintenance trees for the first few years, but the investment in time and work is worthwhile. I like challenges and will work to get a stand of long leaf pines started here. And thank you for the information about loblollies and hardwoods - this helps.

    Tom, I think I know what you are feeling. I finally have some land on the Bay and want to do so much with it. I have a growing business and no plans to retire. This places limits on my time.

    As Spruce pointed out several times, I can get a lot of work done in an hour or two ("If you dig 10 holes a day, just imagine what you can accomplish in a few weeks"). He found time to work on his forest by breaking big jobs down into smaller, manageable chunks. Once we decide this is what we want to do, or need to do, we can do the same. We just need to keep our eyes on the goal.

    Thank you all.

    Take care,
    Pam

  • Marie Tulin
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is the most interesting thread I have ever read on GW. Some of reads like poetry; it is all interesting. It is what the "worldwide web" is supposed to be.
    Many thank from a suburban gardener on a half-acre.

  • spruceman
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pam:

    I have a couple of new ideas for you.

    First, when I was walking through my spruce groves this morning (renewing my fungicide treatments where I did some radical pruning out of forks many years ago) I walked through a grove of NS that was planted as a fairly narrow strip between an electric line and a grove of white spruce. This grove is long and narrow--it is about 75 feet wide and 300 feet long. Because the white spruce are so much slower growing, this grove is really like a broad windbreak or screen. But it is wide enough to have a beautiful "interior." And if you look out to the sides, it is beautiful because the trees on the edge are large and have branches down to the ground. If you look down the length, you get a good impression of Norway spruce in a forest interior environment.

    So, if a planting this shape is a good possibility for you, given the shape and "lay of your land," I would highly recommend it. I think you get many of the advantages of a larger planting with what I would guess is much less work.

    My next idea, after a lot of mulling over the problems of establishing a mixed hardwood/pine forest, is I think my best idea yet.

    Instead of trying to establish this mixed stand by planting one row of hardwoods and two rows of pines, I would plant the pines and the hardwoods in blocks. I think this will solve the problem of the loblolly pines outgrowing the adjacent hardwoods. If you do the rows the forester suggested, all your hardwoods will be adjacent to a fast growing pine and risk being overwhelmed. But if you plant in blocks, the hardwoods and the pines for many years will be growing with each other, eliminating much of the compatibility problem, and eliminating the need for such early and constant thinning to maintain the mixture.

    What I am talking about is blocks at least 40 feet square, and maybe as much as 60 feet square. Here is how I envision this working out over the long-run. If you have a block that is 50 X 50 and plant hardwoods 10 X 10 in that block, when the trees are fully mature and require something like a 25' spacing (depending on species and growth), each block will have anywhere from two to maybe as many as five tree (depending also on how they grow and whether or not some pines from the adjacent block are thinned out). When the whole forest is grown up, the effect will no longer look like mechanically arranged blocks, but will be very much like a naturally mixed forest. But in the meantime your work will be a fraction of what it would be if you started with rows and had to keep the trees thinned to maintain the diversity.

    Of course the blocks can be created by row planting for convenience--you would just have to change species in the rows every 40 to 60 feet, whatever size block you decide on. Of course you can try blocks of different sizes.

    As for species of hardwoods: The three species that come to mind most prominently are tuliptree, and sweetgum--both strongly geotropic trees that should grow very compatibly with the pines--and in addition, red maple, which is excellent for color. And as a tree intermediate in tolerance (ability to grow well when in light shade and between taller trees), red maple should grow well with the pines.

    I know foresters are wedded to the row concept of planting, so I will not be surprised if your forester doesn't like this idea, and foresters also have a hard time accepting red maple as a candidate for reforestation--for a very long time it has been considered a worthless "weed" tree. Many foresters are changing their view of red maple, especially in view of the fact that recently some red maple logs have commanded high prices. But the prejudice is strong. One of the project foresters here in my area insists that he will never include any provision in the stewardship plans he writes for planting, or even encouraging the growth of red maple.

    Another difficulty foresters have is considering "forest aesthetics." This is actually a growing area of forestry, but the vast majority of working foresters never had any classes in the university that dealt with this area, and their thinking is very much geared to commercial wood production and to the style of planting that is geared to that.

    For example, this last year I had to have a new stewardship plan drawn up. These stewardship plans are supposed to include aesthetic objectives. Well, I have some beautiful white pine groves with trees up to 100 feet tall, 2 feet in diameter, and spaced very irregularly. My project forester knows well my aesthetic interests, and I even wrote a letter outlining them. But the first draft of my plan said that I was to thin out every other "row" of these pines for pulpwood. First, it was hard to even see the rows in such an irregularly spaced stand of trees, and second if one were to identify rows as best as one could, the result would have been an even more irregularly spaced stand of trees with frequent wide gaps. The result would have been a very ugly stand of trees. But commercial plantings of pines are managed by rows, so mine had to be managed in rows. In addition, the pulpmill takes logs only up to 18" in diameter, so this row thinning would have required the trashing of the butt logs of many of the trees! This focus on rows is that strong!

    Anyway, after much negotiation, I got my plan changed to eliminate this provision. But there were other provisions I finally had to live with, such as a lower stocking level than aesthetics might suggest, that are based simply on the usual guidelines for timber production. When my triennial inspections occur I have hopes of further negotiations/flexibility. If I dont pass the inspections, I will have some hard decisions to make in view of the tax benefits of following the plan and the vary high costs of failing to do so.

    Anyway, I have a high regard for professional foresters and have learned a lot from them, especially the research foresters at universities and USDA Forest Experiment Stations, whom I talk to on a regular basis. But few foresters have any experience with the kind of project you are initiating, so I think some "out of the box" thinking is required.

    --Spruce

  • wisconsitom
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Another idea, albeit much less thought out, would be to plant your pines and other conifers exclusively, and let nature seed in some hardwoods. Then later you would have to decide which trees to thin out (Remove) as this inseeding takes hold. I'm basing this on the numerous primarily red pine plantations around here. For years, folks would say such a site is a biological desert-no variety, virtually no undergrowth at all. But as years go by, other species do take hold in many of these sites and eventually get established.

    Now, I'm basing this idea on the assumption that there is wooded land in close proximity to your site. The thread is long enough now I don't know/recall if this is the case. And another caveat with this idea-some stuff that might seed itself in could be undesirable junk like buckthorn, etc. But this could be a problem anyway you go.

    Anyway, just another angle on it. Sprucemans experience and knowledge definitely trumps my own in this case. Best of luck.

    +oM

  • spruceman
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Tom:

    Yes, and you raise another important issuepine plantations will eventually be colonized by hardwoods, and in fact in many, if not most areas, eventually be replaced by them (in the absence of fire). One problem with waiting for hardwoods to colonize a stand is the time factor. They dont come in immediately, and they tend to grow slower under the pines than they would if they had full overhead light. But as you suggest, the pines overhead can be removed to promote the growth of the hardwoods. I think this could be a good way to promote a mixed stand, but it will take significantly more time than a simultaneous planting. Another problem is the hardwoods that begin to grow under pines will usually be the more shade tolerant hardwoodsmore maples and beech, less fast growing shade intolerant species like sweetgum and tuliptree, etc.

    But an idea that may be very much the like yours is to make use of the hardwoods that are already coming up in the area where the pines are being planted. Where these are discovered they can be given room by cutting out the competing pines. I think this came up much earlier in this discussion, but I would have to go back and read through to be sure.

    Getting back to the issue of in-growth under a pine plantation--yes, an important element is the proximity of a good hardwood stand. I have hardwoods coming into my pine stands in proportions very much related to the availability of seed from nearby stands, and also related to the species composition of those stands.

    The next important factor is the deer population. In areas where there are no hardwoods nearby, whatever hardwood in-growth there is, is virtually eliminated by deer. In some other areas there is so much hardwood seed available, especially sugar maple and beech, that although the deer can keep it down, they cant really eliminate it. This leaves the forest floor covered by seedlings that have been eaten back for many, many years with an occasional tree that has grown above the deer browse line.

    And there are pros and cons to this in-growth of hardwoods. For my tastes, I prefer this to be limited. In areas where it is not kept down by deer, the undergrowth of hardwoods is so dense that one cant walk through it easily and cant see the pine trees. But a few hardwoods growing under pine trees can be a very beautiful thing, especially in the fall with the autumn colors.

    The amount of hardwood colonization in hardwood stands is also related to how much thinning is done. Related to my previous post where I wanted to maintain a higher stocking level in my stands than my project forester would approve, is the issue of the amount of this hardwood colonization. The more trees thinned out, the more hardwood invasion.

    Also, different species of pine produce denser shade than othersthe lighter the shade, the more hardwood invasion. This is also related to stand age. Red pines will have more hardwood undergrowth than white pine, but young unthinned red pine stands, up to age 25 or so, will have a dense canopy and very little hardwood invasion. But as the stands age, the density of the shade decreases, and the hardwood in-growth increases.

    One thing I like about Norway spruce in forest standsthe overhead canopy is very dense, meaning there is very little hardwood undergrowth and no visual obstruction of the soaring crowns of the trees. But I think NS can be most beautiful with some hardwoods mixed in, or even as a few trees mixed into a predominately hardwood stand. The "Rothkugel" stand in WV is of this latter type. In my woods I have one area growing like this.

    --Spruce

  • alabamatreehugger 8b SW Alabama
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Another problem is controlling exotic species. With the absence of fire, pine plantations here in the south quickly get overrun with mimosa, privet, and tallow. In the north it would be other species like barberry and buckthorn. If you can't burn the area (which would also keep out hardwoods), you will need to go through occasionally with a backpack sprayer and herbicide. It's not an easy task but must be done because many times deer will not eat these exotics allowing them to take over.

  • wisconsitom
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We've done much buckthorn control-I wish I could say eradication-in some of our wooded parks. Stems were cut in the fall and a 50/50 solution of Roundup Pro applied to the cut stems. The plants so treated are dead but there is just an explosion of new plants coming up in exactly the same areas due, I presume, to a large seedbank in the soil. This is one sum-b*tch to get rid of. I'd advise anyone taking on such a task to plan on much work and by all means, if you can nip this stuff in the bud, so to speak, pound it mercilessly in its early stages of invading your site.

    Oh, and I should say, as regards buckthorn at least, newish plants are actually quite easy to pull out of the ground, roots and all. As for well established plants, fugetaboutit.

    +oM

  • Pamchesbay
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Spruce, Tom, Alabama:

    People are still reading and enjoying this discussion. Because the thread is so long, it is difficult to recall details. Is there any value to starting a Part 2? If we started a Part 2, would it be more confusing than helpful? Maybe so. Have we exhausted the subject? Probably not.

    Alabama - yes, we get overrun with these exotics too. It's very difficult and time-consuming to keep them under some control. Sometimes it feels like a losing battle.

    Spruce, you certainly think out of the box. The idea of planting in blocks is intriguing and would help to solve another problem - views of the Bay. Because we cleared the land after Hurricane Isabel, our neighbors now have great views. I have been keeping this in mind when deciding what to plant, where to plant, etc. There are only two neighbors that will be affected by decisions I make now. I finally decided I can thin trees that block their views.

    The hardwoods you mentioned - tuliptree, sweetgum and red maple - are the most common hardwoods growing in the adjacent woods, along with loblollies, American holly, persimmon, sassafras, sweetbay, red cedar, a few oaks.

    I thought about labeling some of the smallest hardwoods and transplanting them into the field after they go dormant. With the drought, they are turning color now. But these little trees are growing so close together, I don't know if I can separate them successfully. I don't want to do this if the process is likely to kill them.

    Thoughts?

    I haven't had experience with foresters but I have had experience with wildlife biologists. They rely upon research that is 20, 30 or 40 years old, and ignore contrary data / evidence before their eyes. I guess this is human nature - relying on information as if it doesn't change (when it does) and resistance to change.

    You have to look for ways to get them to consider new ideas and information without losing face. Sometimes it helps to get another expert involved in the process but this has to be done carefully. Face is so important when you negotiate, and of course, that's what you are doing when you draw up stewardship plans.

    Take care,
    Pam

  • spruceman
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pam:

    I have no experience with this, but here is what I might try. If they are all so close together, I would just dig them up in bunches, strip all the soil off, and plant them bareroot. I think the best time for this might be in the very early spring if you can water them then, but I am not sure.

    And if you have so many, what would be the loss is some of them die--they won't survive growing so close anyway.

    If some of the trees in question are maples, they may survive fairly well. Different seedlings may require different transplant treatments and have different survival rates. I have had poor luck with persimmon. If some of the trees are persimmon, maybe you could transplant a clump of the little trees with soil and all, and then cut off all except the one you want.

    --Spruce

  • Pamchesbay
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Spruce:

    After thinking about your idea of planting in blocks, I have a question about how to implement this re: the mix of hardwoods and pines. The forester recommended 2/3 pines and 1/3 hardwood, growing in rows. Is this recommendation valid if planting in blocks?

    This year, I decided to limit myself to a test planting of 100'x 250' and will plant the seedlings in late November or early December. If the area is planted in 50' x 50' blocks, that's 10 blocks. If trees are planted 10 x 10, that's 200 seedlings. I'll plant the seedlings in late November or early December.

    Assuming the 2/3 pine, 1/3 hardwood rule does not apply to trees grown in blocks, what ratio do you recommend? Assuming the primary conifer is loblolly, does this rule out blocks of other conifers like Eastern white pine or NS? Growing in blocks seems like a good way to get a stand of longleaf pine started since it has different requirements and growth is slower in the early years.

    In the Spring, when you see the native dogwoods and redbuds blooming in forests, your heart lifts. I plant to plant drifts of native flowering trees around the edges of the main forest.

    Many thanks,
    Pam

  • johnstaci
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pam- Sorry its taken so long to respond to your questions. Its soccer season and I spend a lot of my free time coaching my girls two teams. Plus, I wanted to post some photos for you for your reference. I had to set up a new account to post pics. Follow link and see if it works. There has been great feedback. I have a lot to write on this subject, but will try to be as concise as possible.

    Tree Planting Machine-
    Definitely use one if available. It was the best decision I made. We planted around 6000 trees in about 12 hours. 500 trees per hour or more is typical with a tree planting machine. Shortleaf, who is a member of this forum, helped me plant them along with my parents and my wife (in between chasing after the kids). Ive said this before, but think its important enough to repeat - if you do use the tree planter, make sure to use curved rows to make it looked non-engineered - I hate saying that since Im an engineer by trade, but dont want my trees to look like something man-made. From the aerial photos you can see in most places I both have gently curving rows and also curve the rows within the gentle curves. Look closely and see if you can follow what I am talking about. I do have 2 large areas (5-7 acres each) of just grass in between the tree plantings, just so you know what you are looking at. The only downfall to the tree planting machine it disturbed the area in between the trees. Over time this goes away and is almost unnoticeable.

    Mowing-
    You will need to mow once a month or so the first 2-3 years in order to keep everything under control. I mowed along the curves leaving strips of unmowed grass/weeds where the trees were. These strips of taller grass/weeds helped me know where to mow in future mowings. One time I let it go where everything was about the same height and had a heck of a time finding the rows. I mowed over several trees. The grass/weeds will be taller than your seedlings the first couple years. I used my brush hog the first couple years and now use my zero turn. My rows were spaced 8-10 feet apart, so one swath up and back with the mower was about perfect. I just recently mowed between each tree and it is hard to tell they were ever planted in a "row". I will continue mowing everything a couple times per year until the trees are about 7 years old to keep invasive trees out. After 7 years or so, I will just mow trails, with maybe an entire mowing every other year or so.

    Mixing Trees-
    I spent a lot of time mixing the trees to the "formula" I wanted in various areas, then marked bags according to that area. For instance, I had areas marked 1- walnut/oak mix, 2- pure deciduous, 3- pure conifers, 4- conifer/pine mix. I had dozens of species in each mix/formula. I put a humidifier in my garage to sort them so they were thoroughly mixed. I didnt want one row of red oaks, redbud, etc. According to the % of each tree, I would take a couple at a time and put them in the appropriate bag and then repeat. For 6000 trees, this took many evenings. When on the tree planting machine, there are baskets on either side. You can put one mix on one side and the other on another side. I added plenty of understory trees (redbuds, dogwoods, etc) knowing some of the larger trees will eventually provide a thick canopy and need more space up top. Plus, the many understory trees provide nice flowers in the spring.

    Marking Planting Areas-
    I had a detailed plan marking both rows and tree mix types with hundreds of flags. I found once you have a row done with the tree planting machine, it is easy to follow. Just check periodically to make sure your spacing is about right. I would mark, though, where you want to begin/end certain mixes, and provide a transition mix between them - again to prevent it from looking too engineered.

    Groves-
    I went back and planted groves by hand. Most of mine were small as I worry if I plant a huge grove and a disease takes out that one species (look recently at elms and ash), that I may have a huge area of dead trees rather than just a few.

    Pics-
    The pics in my link show my land (the one with 3 ponds milky brown in most since they are still on their first filling. Dont get me going on our drought Pics of original planting and various pics of the land (grass/yard areas and tree areas). I just took my son out the other night so you could see some pics of what it looks like after being mowed between trees which I just did a few weeks ago. There are also some pond pics. I am into fishing and have placed a lot of fish structure in them my 2nd labor of love.

    Good Reading-
    I strongly recommend reading "Woodland VisionsAppreciating and Managing Forests for Scenic Beauty" by the University of Wisconsin-Extension Office. I ordered a hard copy something like $12. It is perfect for people luck us planning a forestry project. Here is a link to the .pdf http://learningstore.uwex.edu/pdf/G3762.pdf. My advice from Guy Sternberg came either via this website or email. Those posts are now gone. His book is great, but doesnt elaborate on the subject we are discussing.

    Lessons Learned-
    I lost about 1/3 of my trees mostly due to record droughts back to back the last 2 years. It is amazing to me that 2/3 of them made it with almost no water several times they went a month or more with zero rain. I think the only reason they survived it due to the use of the root dip water gel. We have cracks an inch wide in our ground, yet the majority of the trees are doing ok. If I were to do it again, I would plant the trees a little closer, say 10 feet between rows by 6 feet between trees within rows (rather than 10 like I did), knowing some will die its a lot faster planting with a tree planting machine as opposed to replanting by hand. Its easy to thin later, plus you can use the wood for firewood. My positive lessons learned were: tree planting machines are awesome and a good mix makes the area look more natural groves in small quantities are very nice, too.

    You are doing a smart thing by planning ahead and asking for advice. You will avoid many mistakes this way. Like everything else in life, everyone has their own opinions on what is best. You will do what makes sense for you- have fun making the decisions and planning everything. The Woodland Visions book may give you some additional ideas as well for your particular situation. Please post pics after planting!

    Good luck and have fun.

    John

  • spruceman
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pam:


    If you decide to plant in blocks as I suggest, what proportion pines, etc.?

    It doesn't matter--whatever you like. The idea of the blocks is to make sure that the pines, or whatever is fastest growing, don't overwhelm those trees that are a little slower growing and/or are slower starters, which can be a different thing. Your thinning work will be reduced and your ultimate mixture should be better.

    What you should do, however, is if you plant a block of hardwoods, maybe keep the block to one species to be sure that you don't plant red maples among tuliptrees and then have the tuliptrees out grow all the red maples, etc. But if you are fairly sure two species of hardwoods will grow at similar rates, you could mix them in some way in the same block.

    But what amount of hardwoods should be planted with the pines? The stands that I have seen that I thought were so beautiful were these--near Jamestown in at least two places there were stands of mixed loblolly and hardwoods, mostly tuliptree and red maple, I think. It may have been something like 60% hardwoods to 40% pines in some places, and in other places maybe 70 or 80% pines. The other place was a mixture of white pine and tuliptree on the Nantahala National forest in NC. I was on my way from Asheville to see the Joyce Kilmer Memorial Forest. If I remember right, this stand seemed to me to be about 50/50. I would love to see this in the fall sometime.

    But if you are going to use my block method to mix hardwoods or other pines with the loblollies, I would not try to use trees that are very much slower growing than the pines, unless they are at least intermediate in shade tolerance, such as the red maple. If you want to plant longleaf pines, and if it seems that they will be more than 10% slower than the loblollies, I would plant them in a separate area.

    If I were going to use the system I am advocating, I would probably do alternate blocks of hardwoods and pines, and perhaps vary the size of the blocks. If I wanted more pines, I would plant them in 60 X 60 blocks and then the hardwoods in 40 or 50 X blocks. Also, the blocks dont have to be square--they can be rectangular. If the loblollies are going to be faster growing than the tuliptrees or the sweetgum, then I would plant more of the hardwoods because the loblollies on the edges of the blocks will dominate. But that may not be the casetuliptrees on good soils can grow with anything. Sweetgum may be a bit slower.

    --Spruce

  • Pamchesbay
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    John - Thanks for posting the photos. Your kids are lovely -- but you know that. The aerial shots showing the curved rows were very interesting. In southeastern VA, we have been in a drought for two years, with about half of normal rainfall. In our house, we use water from a rainwater collection system we designed and installed last winter. When you change from well water to rainwater, it's like changing from a PC to a Mac - you never go back.

    Did you create your plans on paper or with a computer program? My project is much smaller than yours. I am drawing up plan(s) on paper. When I get a new idea (thanks Spruce!), I would like to save Plan X and begin a new Plan Y without having to start over again.

    I uploaded an aerial map of my land. The map is more than a year old and doesn't show recent work. The yellow lines mark the property lines. As you see, the land is irregularly shaped - narrow at the top, wider on the water. The house (the white blob near the water) faces south. The Chesapeake Bay is on the east, the cove is on the west. The eastern side is bordered by a shallow pond / swale (it looks dark in the photo) so that brings up wetland issues, in addition to Chesapeake Bay RPA issues. I want to dig the pond out, make it deeper and healthier. This is on the long list of things to do later.

    Land at Stingray Point

    {{gwi:410316}}

    I downloaded "Woodland Visions" and read it last night. It is quite different from any other publications I've read. People who are interested in the aesthetics in forest management will want to download and read this little book - and order a couple of copies as gifts for their favorite foresters.

    And thanks for the "lessons learned." I will definitely use the gel product. I will plant seedlings closer than 10 x 10. Spruce's suggestions about planting in blocks will work for me - in fact, the "Woodland Visions" publication describes a similar method. I will plant groves using a tree spade or tree bar. I wish I had more time!

    Spruce, I have been going through seedling catalogs for weeks - the state nursery, Mussers, Lawyers, Carinos, etc. Lawyers is fantastic! I could get into big trouble at Lawyers. Today, I created an Excel spreadsheet to organize the information and keep things straight. Now I need to draw up a plan from which to work. Actually, I need to draw up a master plan and a plan for this year.

    One last question - do you have photos of your forest? Your groves? If you do, I'd love to see them.

    Spruce, you've given me so many good ideas. I don't have words to thank you. Since I am out of new words, I'll share a story.

    Yesterday, I went into the woods to mark seedlings with surveyer's tape. The seedlings I found and marked were very, very rare - Acer rubrum. Today, I can report that the chiggers in southeast Virginia are alive and well. In fact, some are no longer alive but that's cold comfort.

    Take care,
    Pam

  • snowguy716
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is really a great thread!

    I just wanted to chime in a bit.

    I just finished planting 140 trees on about 1 acre, and it went pretty well.

    I planted:

    25 Common Lilac
    15 Manchurian Crab
    25 White Pine
    32 White Spruce
    10 Bur Oak
    5 Paper Birch
    5 Silver Maple
    5 Black Cherry
    5 Red Oak
    5 Rugosa Rose
    2 Red Maple
    5 Red Pine
    4 Hybrid Poplar

    In addition, this summer, I planted 4 larger trees... a bur oak, an Autumn Blaze Maple, a Siouxland Cottonwood, and a Red Splendor Crab

    It will be interesting to see how fast everything grows. The clone of Hybrid Poplar I planted can grow anywhere from 5-10 feet per year.. while the bur oak will grow at a glacial 6-18" per year over its entire life.

    In 1996, about 60 red pines, 10 white pines, and 10 black hills and blue spruce were planted on our land.

    In 2007, the tallest Red Pine is about 15 feet tall, the tallest White pine is about 12 feet tall, and the tallest spruce is 7 feet tall.

    Of course, these were all started from seedlings with no weed control for the first 3 years, and only mowing after that (when we moved in).

    We no longer mow the eastern portion of the property, where red pines are growing. There are a few clearings among the trees, and some shrubs are starting to become established. Among them are Rugosa Rose, low bush blueberry, chokecherry, and American Hazelnut. To date, not one hardwood tree has seeded.

    Under our deck, however, about 6 Boxelder seeds germinated, and one vigorous and desperate sapling is about 4 feet tall in its second year. I will transplant it to the edge of our property when the leaves drop...

    Otherwise, the land we own on a lake is already forested... and it's more of a question of management than anything. I desperately want to clear some of the underbrush (it's nearly impossible to walk through the woods here... so thick with underbrush). Between the Beaked Hazel, tree saplings, fallen logs, grass clumps, and various other shrubs, if yo'ure not tripping and trying to regain balance, you have several small branches trying to enter your head through your eye sockets. You basically have to close your eyes and bore your way through the woods with your hands in front of you, shielding your face.

  • radagast
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just to repeat the link above:

    http://learningstore.uwex.edu/pdf/G3762.pdf

    That document has a lot of good info - I've downloaded it and am reading it. If I ever get a woodland to manage, this will help.

  • Pamchesbay
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Snowguy:

    I'm glad you made your presence known and that you've enjoyed this discussion. I've learned so much here and am very grateful for the generosity of people who answer my endless questions.

    You posted a very interesting and diverse list of trees. It's good to see lilacs, crab apples, cherries and rugosa roses. After they settle in, you will have a lovely and fragrant show. The pines and spruce will give them a great background.

    I can grow a few trees on your list here in coastal Virginia - white pines, bur oaks, red maples. I have doubts about the lilacs - we buy lilacs that are hybrids that can take heat and humidity. They are not as fragrant as those in the north, but they are lilacs and are matchless when they are in bloom.

    Radgast - isn't that publication great? The title, "Woodland Visions" leads you to expect something very different.

    You wrote, "If I ever have a woodland to manage, this will help." I don't have a woodland, but I'll create one. If you want to do this, and you set it as your main goal, you'll find that you begin to make decisions that will make the goal a reality. But you must have the goal and keep it in the front of your mind. Your land may or may not be a forest, but if you have land, you can create a forest.

    Spruce, if you are still scrolling down a hundred or more screens, I hope you will order at least two copies of the Woodland Visions book - one is a gift to your forester, one is for you. I might order a third copy as insurance (you may need to educate a new forester), This is how you can educate people about new ideas without making them suspicous.

    It's late. I need to take my chigger medicines. At the office, my new name is "The Chigger Queen." You get respect when you are nursing 200-300 chigger bites!

    Pam

  • radagast
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pam: The problem for me is that I am stuck here in central Maryland, the land of insane housing prices, where condos are barely affordable and actual land is pretty much reserved for the rich, people with toxic loans, and people who bought before the year 2000 or so. Ugh.

    Best of luck with your woodland, and sorry about the chigger bites.

  • Pamchesbay
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    radagast: Circumstances change, lives change.

    We lived in suburbia for years because that's where work was. In 1990, we bought a 675 sq ft cottage on the Chesapeake Bay - a fixer up, but fine for weekends. We moved to the cottage in 1996 and commuted to Richmond for a few years. Gradually, we shifted our main office here, to a little town with about 500 residents. We spent 6-7 years looking for an acre or so of land that faced south. No luck.

    In 2003, a 5 acre parcel near the cottage went on the market. The land was low, there was a bald eagle nest on the property, so the cost was much lower than similar properties. The purchaser would have to negotiate with FWS before getting a permit to build. That was the biggest obstacle. Nine months later, Hurricane Isabel took down the trees and the nest. If that hadn't happened, we would still be negotiating!

    We live at the end of a peninsula with the Rappahanock River to the north, the Piankatank River on the south, the Chesapeake on the East. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I would live in such a wonderful place.

    BUT it's not for everyone. We will continue to work for many more years to pay for this place. With salt air, storms and hurricanes, it's high maintenance. We designed systems so we can live off the grid for a long time.

    Here is a photo at sunrise in the winter:
    {{gwi:410317}}

    Here is a photo taken from the same direction in the summer when the grandkids were flying kites:

    {{gwi:410318}}

    Where would you like to live?

    Several years ago, my sister-in-law moved from suburban MD to Charles Town WV, bought 10 acres on the Shenendoah River and built a house. She does not have deep pockets but land prices are so much lower there than in areas near DC. After making this decision, she never looked back. She commutes to work by train. It works.

    I tell you all this because people can make big changes in their lives if they know what they want, plan, and are determined. It isn't easy, but it is worthwhile.

    Take care,
    Pam

  • johnstaci
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pam- That's a nice piece of land you have there! I'm sure it will turn out even nicer once your trees are in place. You will get a lot of satisfaction watching them all grow. Yes, its a lot of hard work, but the sentimental value/satisfaction you get in return is immeasurable. Sort of like they describe in the Woodland Visions book - comparing the watching trees grow to watching your kids grow. That comparison may be a stretch, but I can understand their point. It is very satisfying and worth the hard work.

    To answer your question about planning- I initially developed a plan on paper. I then presented my plan to a forester as we walked the property. We tweaked it a little and I updated my plan on paper. I then converted my plan to Microstation (similar to Autocad) and Excel. I have dozens of spreadsheets and to help keep track of everything. Ive purchased seedlings from every company mentioned in this post, plus many others. I try to document as best I can.

    I used Microstation with an aerial photo as a reference file to develop GPS coordinates to help me flag for the curved outlines of my woods. I also used it to measure areas and calculate # of trees needed and where I wanted to put each mix I used. I also used it to design my 3 ponds. It is fun to use if you know how to use it. This whole process took months and hundreds of hours but it was fun. Im sure I went overboard on some things us anal engineers are known for that.

    Have fun with your planning. John

  • radagast
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Nice photos, Pam, and a good history to go with them.

    Your statement about living in the suburbs because that's where the work is sums it up for me. I'd live in a much smaller town if I could, but I am stuck living where the work is, and sadly the whole area between Baltimore and Washington (where the work is located) is grossly overpriced and overbuilt. The collapsing housing Bubble may help fix this problem, but maybe not.

    I could move someplace else, but I am not sure where, and doing so would mean giving up all my family and friends since they all live either in the area or in other, nearby, high-cost of living places (older relatives having moved to those locations when people could still afford to do so.)

    Oh, well... we'll see what happens...

  • spruceman
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    One can, if one has the money, of course, buy land away from their primary residence. When I bought my timberland In Garrett County MD I lived 4 1/2 hours away in Washington, DC. I was able to find a large parcel of timberland that was away from the more expensive prime recreational areas and which had one or two other "problems" that made it less attractive to most buyers. So I got a bargan.

    Now I have been a special case, having had my forestry training, and my love of very hard woods work that few people would be willing to do. But my timberland was always an investment as well as recreation, and as it has turned out, much better investement than I imagined because of the value of wild black cherry veneer quality trees, which when I made my purchase I never anticipated.

    Anyway, my story is a long one and if anyone is interested in investments in land for growing timber I could give some pointers and tell a little more of my story.

    But land in more rural areas can sometimes be found for a good price and sometimes can have a lot of "hidden potential." Even if the investment value doesn't equal what I have been able to achieve, or what one may expect to achieve in a 401K stock investment, there is nothing wrong with putting a portion of one's "nest egg" into an investment in land. Increases in value are not guaranteed, and one needs to be very selective and take ones time looking and selecting.

    Many years ago I looked into making a timberland investment not too far from where Pam is (hence my being able to advise her about loblolly pine stands, which I studied a bit). I spent a lot of time looking and found some places that I thought had some possibilities to benefit from some kinds of tree and timber "enhancements" that I knew how to do. But in the end I decided that having two properties in two areas far from my home in different directions was just too much for me to handle.

    Anyway, any of you who love trees and timberland, there may be opportunities within two hours or less from where you live. I went further because of my love of the mountains, the snow, and the overall cooler weather.

    --Spruce

  • terrene
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pam, lovely sunrise! It looks like you have a beautiful property. Spruceman and Johnstaci, your forest projects are fascinating. This has been a great thread to follow.

    I have 1.25 acres and about half is wooded, part of it it pretty dense. Turns out that 4 of the largest trees are Norway maples (Acer platanoides) with hundreds of younger trees and seedlings. Highly invasive. I am in the process of removing these and other invasives (Buckthorn, Oriental Bittersweet, Burning bush, etc.). Since the canopy of a Norway maple is incredible dense and wide-spreading, this is opening up the property and leaving more of an open woodland.

    Pam - the "Golden Bowl" concept sounds interesting. I think I have the potential to develop this in the back 1/2 acre of my lot, with a little help from abutting properties (that have canopy trees). Do you know where I can read more about this?

    Wisconsitom - boy do I know about Buckthorn! I have lots of it in back. How do you eradicate it (if you can, that is)?? I've spent the last week cutting the stems as low as possible and applying Brush-b-gone concentrate on the stumps. The Buckthorn suffered greatly in the drought this summer, and lost its fruit early (yeah!) and most of the leaves and I figure I'm hitting it while it's down! Hope this works.

    My lot also have some beautiful older native trees. White pines, Red pines, Pin oaks, some other oaks, Sugar maple, Silver maple, Linden, lots of Choke cherries, etc. I plan to plant a few more canopy trees and lots of shrubbery and understory trees. I've got 80 native tree/shrub seedlings sitting in a nursery bed now.

    The next house I hope to have a few more acres, maybe do a little reforesting there!

  • Marie Tulin
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've enjoyed watching this thread, and suggested people on the New England Forum (my favorite place and people) read it. Those who did really liked it!

    You folks are some serious tree people. What a pleasure~