Lou, if you can get the tree line-clearance guys to drop off chips when they're in that area, you may be able to score a good amount of mulch that way. Or other arborists in that area may need a place to dump from time to time, though these guys probably have a means to dispose of their chips already. Doesn't hurt to ask.

Heavy cardboard, the corrugated stuff, can actually be used as a mulch mat with reasonably good results. It will, of course, decay, but in the meantime, it will help to get the seedlings going. Glyphosate herbicides, ie. Roundup, can be of much help in this endeavour also. You can kill off the grasses and other competing weeds before planting, and keep beating that stuff back as they grow. I like the backpack style sprayers. You can get a lot of work done with one of these.

+oM

I hear of people using old carpeting. Should be available from dump sites and maybe from installers. You could lay strips along side of your tree rows, then fill in right next to the seedling with grass clips, or even cut up pieces of carpet. I like Toms idea of cardboard too.
Perhaps cut out one foot circles, slit and position around seedling. Maybe punch holes in for rainfall.

Perhaps the woven black plastic to stop weed growth, and allow air and water penetration to soil. And then a couple inches of hay/straw on top of plastic to keep it cool. Or just do hay by itself - however sooner or later weeds seem to come thru. Prefer tree bark or leaves or pine straw if you can get them. That seems to keep weeds off for most of a year.

I can't believe what I'm reading! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't use carpet or woven (or otherwise) black plastic covered with hay/straw! These are guaranteed ways to have a major disaster on your hands when the weeds grow through them. They also have a tendency to cause greater surface root growth which isn't good for mowing, aesthetics, or tree health.

Glyphosate (like Roundup) and preemergence is what I use. I'm not sure it's the best solution, but it seems to be the best I have tried so far.

You will NEVER see a professional arboretum or botanical garden use carpet or plastic. I cannot possibly imagine any reason to even consider these.

We're talking about 25-50 seedlings for 3 acres. I can't imagine hauling around that much wood mulch.

Texas Forest Service sells fabric mat.

http://oikostreecrops.com/store/product.asp?numRecordPosition=1&P_ID=532&PT_ID=109&strPageHistory=cat

is another place that sells them.

Round up works but doesn't stop weed seeds from germinating. It is too far of a drive for me go there regularly.

>Texas Forest Service sells fabric mat.

If left uncovered, these mats will work for a while before becomming a big problem, but sooner or later, you'll have a mess on your hands. And, there are the other problems associated with such mats. If you choose to cover them with mulch (to make them last longer or for aesthetics), you'll have a problem before you blink an eye.

>Round up works but doesn't stop weed seeds from germinating. It is too far of a drive for me go there regularly.

That's where the preemergence comes in. I only have to spray about two or three times a year (depending on the chemical, the weather, etc.) for next to zero weeds. If I wasn't so picky, I might get by with one treatment.

What exactly are we dealing with here? What kind of property is this and what grass is growing there? What was there before it was cleared? I think we need more information here lou. At least I do.

Lou, my suggestion is pine needles. Find some pines and approach the property owners. They'd probably be happy for you to come remove them come fall time. They're easy to rake up, stuff in lawn bags and transport.

Around here (Tennessee) pine needles aren't that easy to come by. People with pine trees usually either want to keep their needles for mulch or want to sell them. Pine needles can get ridiculously expensive.

Also, we're back to needing some way to haul stuff. Lou said he didn't have a trailer or a good way to haul bulk material, and he's going to need a lot of mulch.

Lou, have you considered trying to borrow, rent, or buy a trailer? I borrow my dad's trailer when I need to haul a lot of stuff. Even if you do use herbicide and preemergence, it would still be beneficial to have a good layer of mulch around the trees.

There are no pine trees growing that area.

QQ- I'm not sure what the land was originally used for but it doesn't look like it was used for anything. Apparently, the previous owners cleared about 2 acres of 3 acres, maybe more. It's just a flat land. There are native oak growing, I think post oaks. There is another 3 acres lot next to it which is mostly mature oaks. The trees are mostly in the front. nothing in the back where it faces west so you can see why i want to plant a bunch of trees back there along the property line, maybe 30-50 feet deep of assorted trees to block out afternoon sun and provide privacy. Right now, there's wild grass of whatever they are are growing there. It looks like a pasture land. I don't plan on moving there anytime soon. it will be many years. We'd have to retire first because it is a long way from where we currently live and my wife has a job. Either that or it'd be an investment in case we change our mind or be forced to move elsewhere for jobs, you never know.

I know that trees benefit greatly from mulch but I'm about all stretched out on money at this point thanks to my wife's spending habits. I suppose I will have to go to the next lot with all the trees. It's basically untouched with thick layer of decomposing leaves. Still a lot of hauling around. I will have to see what HD over there have for mulch if it makes sense to buy bags. 3 cubic feet of mulch times 9 equals a yard. Usually it is 3-4 dollars per bag so 27 dollars at least. Most places sell that much per yard in bulk PLUS 20-50 dollars for delivery fee!

That's why I don't understand why you'd go through the effort to mulch this much land. And mulch doesn't last forever. Maybe 3-6 months. Just spray roundup around where the trees are going and hopefully that will do the trick for a while then just mulch the new trees.

{{gwi:415017}}
This is a rare display of great fall color on a post oak that I'm about to go pay a visit to. I'm enjoying it while it's still around since it's days are numbered with the way they are clearing and flattening land here to build more homes.

In fact, I thought when they ran out of land that meant they couldn't build anymore. Wrong. They just tore down a couple of very large, modern and very nicely landscaped estates down the street. They were on quite a bit of acreage and they had horses. Both mansions were torn down and the rolling pasture was immediately flattened. Any remaining trees were toast the day the developer laid eyes on the place. I think you have the right idea, lou. Get some peaceful land for the future and in the mean time you can pay a visit when you want some peace and quiet.

I have to chime in here since I've done something similar.

First question, you mention 25-50 seedlings for 3 acres. 400-600 seedlings per acre is recommended for reforrestation - either 10x10 or 8x8 spacing. I planted 6000 seedlings + 2000 replacements over the 14 of my 30 acres I am reforresting.

I considered mulching them all with the mulch the utilitiy/tree cutting companies dropped off, but after doing 100, I realized 6000 would be impossible. 25-50 would be a piece of cake to mulch with woodchips and the best option. I would spend the $ and make the effort to do this for such a small # of trees.

What I do is spray an over-the-top grass killer every year or 2 - it's called Envoy. About $100/gallon but a gallon of Envoy makes about 75 gallons of spray. You may be able to buy in smaller quantities. It kills grass buy doesn't harm trees. You can spray round-up before you plant, but not after - it will kill the seedlings if sprayed on the leaves. I started with a tilled beanfield, so I didn't need to spray beforehand.

One more tip- plant extras as some will surely die out. The seedlings will just sit there developing roots for the first 2-3 years. After 3 years, mine are just starting to take off at a pretty amazing pace, even with the drought we've had.

Have fun and good luck.

John

I use a big piece of cardboard that I roll up into a tube around each tree as I spray. When I have an assistant, he can put the cardboard up in about one second. The Glyphosate kills all the various weeds and grass but doesn't touch the tree leaves because of the cardboard.

johnstaci,

I think Lou is planting oaks and trees that should over time be fairly tall and wide and that is why he is only planting 25-50 seedlings.

Did you plant pines for the land you are reforesting?

That's 25-50 trees mainly Mexican white oak for now but I plan on planting others such as Dawn redwoods, Montezuma cypress if i ever get those seeds germinated.

It probably would be only one acre for the new trees. I'm leaving the middle part open. I don't see the point because that's where the house will be built anyway. The rest of the land already have mature oak trees but I am not exactly sure which oak tree they are. I need to take pictures and post them here for identification.

Johnstaci: I'm planting seedlings and small trees on about 3 acres so I have questions about your reforesting project.

Where did you learn that you should plant 400-600 seedlings per acre? I remember your asking about oaks and other large trees. Isn't that awfully close together for canopy trees? Do you plan to thin later?

Where did you get your seedings? How did you plant so many seedlings in such a short time? My project is much smaller than yours but it has the potential to break the bank so I'm always looking for inexpensive, healthy seedlings.

Lou: When I'm planting a new area, I use a herbicide like roundup or brush-b-gone. Based on advice from wisconsitom, I invested in a backpack sprayer - it made the process faster and easier (although when I have 4-5 gallons on my back, I feel like I'm about to tip over - if you get one, experiment with weight and balance).

After the tree or seedling goes in, I put down a layer of mulch (usually obtained from tree trimmers) about 6 ft in diameter around the tree (I tried skimping on mulch and regretted it - had to spend far more time watering).

If you won't be living on this land right away, and don't have to plant your trees immediately, you have time to line up sources of free wood chips - the utility guys, local tree guys. Get a good pile or two or three and let it work until you need it. I am blessed with a tractor that has a front loader so I can turn piles of wood chips so they break down faster. I love those piles, they are money in the bank!

The last thing I did is put down a pre-emergent - one dose in late spring will last most of the season. When weeds come through to the point where they are a problem, I use roundup again.

Watering young seedlings often was more important than anything else. Do you have a source of water where you will plant or will they be on their own?

I planted about 150 seedlings and small trees in April and May. I thought I lost the bald cypresses because we had a two-week period of very hot temps and strong winds, but they all recovered. The rest of the seedlings and trees are doing okay, some are doing surprisingly well.

I did lose a few dogwood seedlings (from NH state nursery) - I discovered that the dogs liked to lay in that nursery bed. Live and learn.

Pam

Pam-

Lets see, where do I start? I could talk about my tree planting project for hours. IÂll try to be summarize as much as possible..

I purchased 30 acres in 2003 - I will be building on it next year. Most of it is in a CRP-type reforestation program. I have a couple 5-7 acre open areas, one of which is where the house will be. The government paid for the trees, paid for me to plant them and for mowing the 1st 2 years, provided consultation services on my tree plan, and gives me a yearly payment of $2k. Pretty sweet deal. But you donÂt need a ton of $ to do what I did without such a program.

I purchased most of my trees from the MO Dept of Conservation. In my opinion, the best cons dept in the country. They sell a large variety of high quality seedlings for approx $0.25 each. That is dirt cheap. Shipping is $5 no matter if you by 25 or 25,000. 1/3 of my trees are pine varieties (about 10 varieties), 1/3 are oak varieties (about 10 varieties), and 1/3 are a mix of about 100 other species. I did buy some from other mail order nurseries  they varied from $0.20 to $1.00 each. If you buy 500 or more of a variety like I did, the price for the mail order seedlings is about ¼ what it is if you buy 100. I have some pure conifer areas, some pure deciduous, and some mixed. I planted a couple hundred bald cypress under the future water level before my 3 ponds filled up  they are now partially under water  that is the favorite part of my project right now.

The cons dept let me borrow a tree planting machine for my initial planting. I pulled it behind my 1952 8N tractor. Worked like a charm. Planted 6000 seedlings in less than 2 days. One person sits on the "machine" and drops in seedling through a slit that is made in the ground. Wheels behind the machine close the slit. Pretty neat invention. I made curved rows rather than straight- it looks natural and at the same time is easily mowable. The curved rows idea came from Guy Sternberg who provided several other great tips  he recent wrote a great book on trees but unfortunately isnÂt on this forum anymore. His book is great if you donÂt have it already.

Soak the trees in a 5 gallon bucket with musser water gel when planting. Watering isnÂt an option for large plantings like mine. The water gel holds moisture around the roots for the 1st year or so after that they do ok on their own. Ideally I would water, but watering and reforestation normally arenÂt mentioned in the same sentence  for practical reasons.

I have planted a couple thousand replacement trees and others in selected areas with a tree planting bar. I have got to the point where I can plant a seedling in about 10-15 seconds  100 or more per hour, included walking between spots, is easily accomplished. Step on the bar, wiggle it, stick the seedling in, push the soil back in with the bar, step on the edge, and move on. When you are doing a project like mine with inexpensive seedlings, it doesnÂt make sense to spend a long time planting each seedling. Choose a time when the soil is moist. Plant in early to mid april for the best results.

I have done a lot of research on fertilizing seedlings. Next spring I will start fertilizing with a SLOW release pure nitrogen fertilizer  recommend by many conservation depts and nurseries. Soil tests donÂt accurately show nitrogen levels, and nitrogen is nearly always the limiting nutrient for trees. Many on this forum talk about soil tests. For nutrients other than nitrogen, that is good. For nitrogen, your wasting your $. About 1 tbs per seedling will be applied each March. DonÂt fertilize the first year or 2 while the tree is working on the root system. I will likely fertilize from years 3 to 8  at the point in time, they will be large and in charge (relatively speaking) and be close to developing a canopy.

By the way, the cons dept recommended 10x10 spacing. Search the internet and tree books and you will find most suggest 10x10 spacing  some more, some less. I planted several understory trees that can grow under a canopy. I will thin some and use for firewood. Studies have shown that the closer the trees are planted together, the faster they grow. They are competing for sunlight. If you walk through a forest you will notice 10x10 is about right. Some trees are 2 apart, some are 20, but the average around 10Â-15 or so.

IÂll stop there. I left out many details, but that may be all youÂre looking for. My land and reforestation project is a labor of love. I really enjoy the hard work  a lot of satisfaction comes from watching the trees grow. Some people call me crazy to plant such small trees, but IÂm only 32 so I feel I will be able to enjoy a nice forest for decades. Plus, knowing people and wildlife will enjoy the trees for generations is also satisfying.

Have fun!!

John

Lets hope they don't come back in 10 years and want those trees back!

Lou: I had another idea - don't know why I didn't think of it before. I live in a coastal area so have to consider erosion and related problems when planting. We are also subject to occasional flooding from hurricanes and tropical storms. I looked for a fabric / substance that would hold /stabilize soil until root systems are established, then degrade. I found a gazillion other products for weed suppression, water retention, etc

If you do an internet search using terms like geotextile, weed suppression, biodegradable landscape fabric, etc, you are likely to find products to meet your needs. I was surprised to find that many are surprisingly reasonable in cost and available in fairly small quantities. Here is a link to one company - there are probably hundreds more.

John: Thanks for taking the time to provide details about your reforestation project. This thread has wandered a bit from Lou's original question. I have a couple of questions about this process so I'll start a new thread about reforesting projects (large and small) -- but not tonight.

Pam

Here's my best buy on herbicide: 1 quart of 41% glyphosate which costs $14.98 and makes 21 gallons. You won't find Roundup for that price.
Use backpack sprayer and shield to prevent drift onto your tree seedlings.
Sam

I know this is Lou's thread, but I am fascinated with Johnstaci's tree-planting project and just had a couple questions.

What does CRP stand for?

And did you plant strictly native tree species?

How about grass cuttings? I used to cut the grass then collect all the cuttings up and put them around my plants in the summer,wetting the soil first. You could mow your lawn,rake all the loose grass up and take it to the site in a bag!

Travis Equipment Co on Hwy 287 on the east side of Midlothian will deliver mulch, compost, etc by the dump truck load.

I'd use cardboard for a weed-stop;
it's free at every dollar store, grocery store, & beer store, it comes in "shipping box" size (easy to handle), it will deter weed seeds long enough for the little trees to get started, & then it decomposes & adds to the soil.

Use lots of layers & lots of overlap.

Since it sounds like you need to get everything in place at once rather than making a million trips, you might check with some of the companies that pick up baled cardboard from the stores.

& be sure that you use trees that can survive in Midlothian;
most of the area is thin topsoil over porous limestone shelf.

Best luck!

terrene- Pam started another thread on the reforestation topic. I'll answer on that thread.

John

Lou, How about an update on your project?

Terry

Not so good! It was TOO WET and apparently some animals killed some of the trees. Now it's TOO DRY as it hasn't rained very much since March or April. It went from swamp to desert in matter of months. Oh well. Last month, I was at the property to do some trimming and some are hanging on. It just needed a good soaking rain and it probably got two or 3 good ones since then hopefully. I will still plant more trees but not as many because I plan on putting up cage which obviously will cost more and more time consuming. Not sure what I'll plant this time though. I'm hoping to get some taxodium mucronatum (montezuma cypress -evergreen cousin of bald cypress) in one gallon size if that nursery still have them available.

The hardest part is finding a big bag of synthetic fertilizer for the trees like 12 months osmocote locally. Organic fertilizer apparently attracted small animals so no more of that.

Sorry to hear that. As for my project, I've planted a half dozen "Ogon" Gold Rush, Dawn Redwoods, but they're showing signs of summer sun burn. Healthy, I think, but not as attractive as I hoped.

I may need to move them this winter into the mixed forest, rather than the open sun. I also need to find some locations for the four "Taxodium x Nanjing Beauty" Bald cypresses that I got from the Botany shop. I bought them after (I think)hearing you sing their praises. So far, they're very nice.

Terry

Lou: I hope you will get rain soon. I'm finding that many trees can tolerate harsh conditions, and may even seem to die, then revive when conditions are more favorable. About 25-30 percent of my oak seedlings looked dead, then began growing from the roots.

Terry: Maybe you don't have to move them. I visited the Raulston Arboretum in Raleigh a couple of days ago. They had a 'Ogon' Gold Rush planted in full sun. The tree was probably 25-30' and looked great!

I planted about a dozen dawn redwoods last year. Between the wind, sun, and drought, they looked terrible - I was sure they were at death's door. This year, they look fine and put on 3-4 feet of growth so far. A few have some brownish needles but I think this was caused by a long period of hot wind. You wouldn't think these are the same trees as last year. Sometimes they just need time to adapt to different conditions.

Pam

Pam, I enjoy following your project too! I need to get off my tail and post a few pics of my Ogon's and ask the experts to diagnose the problem.

I wonder if the tree you saw was doing well because Raleigh is north and elevated compared to me? I'm sure we're hotter here on the Mississippi coast. I do hope you're right.

And I've noticed oaks I thought dead, later coming up from the ground too. And I just gave away a half dozen regular dawn redwoods to friends that I couldn't find spots for on my land.

Terry

Lou - Don't give up hope. I was working in the field this afternoon - discovered several seedlings that are just leafing out now. In mid-August!

Terry - Sorry for the delay answering. I'm spending too much time working! When I visited the Raulston Arboretum, temps were in the low 100's at 7 pm. We had a late dinner. We left the restaurant after 9 pm - temp was 101. (Of course, it may have been 105 in Mississippi.)

I think you are wise to give your Ogon's some shade if you can, especially from the afternoon sun. Your latitude is lower so the intensity of sun and day length is different from Raleigh (and the Chesapeake Bay). I don't know what impact latitude has on tree growth. Another area to research. ;-)

Take care (and try to stay cool!) ~ Pam