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Tree replacement

Posted by dingo2001 5 (My Page) on
Sun, Aug 17, 14 at 15:54

Hi there! as you can see, my apple tree is dying. I need to put something close to it as a replacement that will still shade the bed underneath it. I am interested in Yellowwood but am afraid it is too large for the space. Other possibilities - Magnolia, Fringetree, would like something that flowers. This is on the East side of the house and gets full sun most of the day. Other trees we have are Pagoda Dogwood, Kousa Dogwood, crabapple, Seven Son, Red Horsechestnut, Gingko Autumn Gold, Green Mountain sugar maple, Black Hills Spruce, Ivory Silk Lillac. We are in the NW Chicago suburbs. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated!! Thanks! Julie

This post was edited by dingo2001 on Mon, Aug 18, 14 at 17:33


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Tree replacement

put more pix .. IN THE SAME POST... by replying to the first post...

else.. your multiple posts get separated.. and become useless..

you are not the first.. and i am sure.. you wont be the last ..

ken


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Great idea Ken lol!

This post was edited by dingo2001 on Mon, Aug 18, 14 at 17:35


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One more.. Thanks for your help :)

This post was edited by dingo2001 on Mon, Aug 18, 14 at 17:37


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RE: Tree replacement

Stewartia pseudocamellia could be the ticket.

Dax


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Dax great suggestion! Will it do ok in more alkaline soil?


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Yellow wood is reputedly slow growing. This is an issue with 'small' shade trees; a number of them will grow slowly enough to frustrate what you're trying to do.

On the other hand, I find it intriguing that you are concerned a yellow wood would get too large, yet are considering autumn gold ginkgo, green mountain sugar maple and horse chest nut.

What's the tallest you are willing to tolerate?

What's the widest canopy you are willing to tolerate?

Is fairly dense shade okay, or do you need 'dappled' shade underneath it?

How important is it this thing get to a given height quickly? If you start with a 4 foot yellow wood, it could be a long time before it 'overgrows' the space. A ginkgo might sit there 2 or 3 years settling in before it starts growing above-ground.

I don't know how it'd do in your area, but would a trident maple be a better match for your wishes than a sugar maple?

Be mindful some maples have a dense, fibrous root system which can make gardening underneath them a pain (I still can't believe Ken didn't mention it).

Richard.


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Hi Richard! Thanks for your input. The trees I listed (maple, Gingko, horsechestnut) are trees we already have in other areas of the yard. We have about an acre. I am concerned on the size of the yellowwod due to the location between houses - the edge of the mulch furthest from the house is pretty close to the lot line and the neighbor's house is ~30 ft.? away. Our house is a ranch, just don't want the height of a larger tree to look weird or out of proportion in that spot. Slow growing is ok, we aren't moving anytime soon! Thank you!


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If you experience yellowing from too alkaline a soil, broadcast pelleted sulfur on a need to basis or... after your apple is removed, blend in/amend pine needles and pine bark to that area to begin the process of lowering the ph and use pine bark or pine straw mulch/pine needles, as your mulch.

You will find a balance of these elements that work for you to keep a Stewartia happy.

Take care,

Dax


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  • Posted by dbarron Z6/7 (Oklahoma) (My Page) on
    Tue, Aug 19, 14 at 8:27

Though contrary to the post above, soil amendment for ph isn't usually very successful. There's a huge amount of buffering in the soil, and the need to continually reapply...and how much of the tree's root area can you really keep ph adjusted.

It's best to plant something that likes the native soil ph...and not try to fight it.


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And I agree completely to dbarron.

You could still try Stewartia pseudocamellia and simply see how it does. Here on silty-clay-loam (heavy soil) and a ph of 7.0, Rhododendrons to my disbelief love it. It's become my conclusion that the heavy soil holds water which the rhodies love. I've had them in the ground four or five years and they're very health. I'm just saying you might want to give Japanese stewartia a shot.

Again, dbarron is definitely correct.

Dax


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Sorry that I misunderstood that the others were trees you had elsewhere, not alternatives for the spot. Internet addict data overload strikes again!

Richard.


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No worries Richard! I posted a long rambling question.
Thinking of going with Stewartia, now to see if I can find it locally! Appreciate everybody's input. Julie


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If you still like the original tree, can't it be pruned (rejuvinated) or is it really dying? Just wondering. If you are just sick of the tree and think it will die anyway, it's your choice of course, but apples can be pruned and rejuvinated, of course, it may be beyond saving, you know more about it's condition.


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poaky I would love to keep my current tree - I can get closer pics if you feel like it could be rejuvinated. The trunk was splitting in 2007 and we bolted it together, and last winter seemed to result in a lot of limb die off. My idea was to keep this one going while the newbie filled in, but I am open to suggestions!!


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"The trunk was splitting in 2007 and we bolted it together"

I'm very interested in the above. Could you please post some close-up focused pics, and describe the hardware you used (bolt material and diameter etc) ?


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Hi there! Here are some pics of the non expert repair job! I don't recall how long the bolt was and my husband didn't either, other that "big ass". He took a long drill bit and drilled through the tree while we held it together/ aligned as best we could. Then he pounded the bolt through and fastened it in. Took a while to drill through - the bit gets hot & binds up in the green wood,spraying it with oil helped. Also not a project for your re chargable drill, get out the big manly Craftsmen that plugs in. Probably not the best idea ever, but it has worked well. It was a bad split and we figured we didn't have anything to lose by trying the bolting procedure. Tree has done well till last winter, although I'm sure the split has contributed to it's decline.


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End of bolt


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Split - tree should have been better pruned as a baby I'm guessing.


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Thanks.

I have a maple that is showing signs of splitting at the junction of codominant stems. I anticipated this possible splitting and tethered it about 3 years ago and have been debating with myself whether or not to take further action. I was considering drilling a hole through and bolting it. For the time being, I've decided to leave it alone. If the tether isn't sufficient it may be time to let nature take its course. If/when the wind rips it apart, it will be missed. It puts on quite a show of color in the fall, and in the summer it and its twin form the "gateway" to my center trail through the woods.


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Note to all who would "repair" trees with hardware, it is not unheard of for some poor soul, years down the road, to be sawing into that wood, with its now-hidden metal components-and to be maimed or killed in the process, the saw recoiling wildly as its teeth hit metal.

Just saying......We've done hundreds, if not thousands of such cabling and bracing. We don't do it anymore, having seen too many instances of it not working, all while questioning the wisdom of trying to tie together that which will ultimately break apart anyway.

Not everyone agrees with what I've just said there-that cabling/rodding is no longer a recommended practice-but quite a few arborists do agree, and as a total part of tree care, these practices appear to be in decline.

I'm also disheartened in this case by the very apparent lack of root flare for this poor old thing. Health and vigor can't be too great in such a setup.

+oM


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Wisonsitom I totally agree - like I said it probably wasn't the best idea ever! But we knew we were prolonging the inevitable, we knew it would be us taking it out when the time came, it was one of the only trees in the yard when we moved in and isn't a danger if it starts falling apart. Any suggestions for replacement? :)
Julie


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Hey Julie, my problem in making suggestions for you is one of too many possibilities, not too few. You clearly have a good deal of tree knowledge, what with just the listing alone of what you already have in your yard. For my part-and I don't think you're going to do this-I still think the right flowering crab, ie. one with good resistance to apple scab and fireblight, and one with persistent fruit, to be the finest, most long-lived group of smallish, ornamental trees available for the upper midwest. But I get that you already have an apple there, so may not want to simply replace with what is essentially another type of apple tree.

One thing I would do-and this too may be rejected-is cut the ailing thing down, get it and you out of its and your misery (Hope grammar police aren't reading), and make way for the new guy. Trees grow so much faster than many peeps seem to think, and I believe you may as well get the right tree started in the right place, rather than stuffing one into the shade of a dying neighboring tree, to the detriment of both. Just my opinion.

+oM


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Hey +oM, lol I don't really know much about trees, just been lurking here on the forum for a couple of years! Not opposed to a crabapple, but I have one out front.... And yeah we will bite the bullet and take this out as well :)
Julie


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  • Posted by whaas 5a SE WI (My Page) on
    Thu, Aug 21, 14 at 22:30

Interesting point about the cabling Tom. Two large competing arborist firms came out to look at my 60' linden with multiple co-doms branching 6' off the ground. One suggested cabling, I told the other one about the cabling suggestion and they laughed and said its a terrible idea due the maintenance required and the likelihood it wouldn't do the job when it needed to.

They said keep your money, call us back in a few years to see how its doing to determine if it should get removed or has more life.

dingo, a paperbark maple would be going in that spot if it was my yard. Otherwise the magnolia would be my next choice... a Leonard messel to be exact. Somewhat common but so perfect, hardy and adaptable.

Dax, I noticed that acid lovers seem to be more adaptable to neutral/slightly alkaline sites with soils that have more moisture holding capability. I grew some Rhodies at my previous home that had neutral/slightly alkaline clay no problem but then they have failed miserably in my neutral/slight alkaline sandy loam. Same story with Oakleaf Hydrangea.


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Paperbark maple was my first choice, also.

Interesting observations whaas.

Dax


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I had been the poster who mentioned the tree could be saved with pruning etc. I wasn't aware of the need for cabling, and hardware to hold it together. It is a good idea for some trees, like the ANCIENT Quercus Robur in England like the tree that ROBINHOOD and his band of thieves, were thought to have met at in the famous forest in England, who's name escapes me right now. I am serious, there is a book which shows an Eng. oak that is believed to be this tree, that Robinhood and his friends who helped the poor and stole from the rich, really met. That's what they tell us in the US. Those in the UK may say, someone is pulling our leg. Anyways, this huge Q. Robur is huge and the limbs are held up with braces. When I win the lottery, I will go see it. Maybe take Dax with me if I win a whole bunch of money, and he wants to see the trees in the UK.


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I love the paperbark maples but seems like everyone around me has them, and I kind of wanted something flowering. What about Daybreak Magnolia? Nursery nearby has some available.
Sherwood Forest Poaky?


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Daybreak was my first pick in conjunction with Paperbark maple. It wouldn't create much shade so I chose not to mention it. I'd certainly choose it if I wanted a Magnolia in that spot.

poaky, please continue to play the #'s and/or the scratch offs! I'll do the same!!

Dax


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Just to be clear, the opinions I've expressed re: cabling and bracing, etc. in large, old trees are just that, my opinions. The factual part is that many practitioners are far less inclined to do major cabling jobs as opposed to twenty or so years ago. There's nothing quite like a gigantic co-dominant limb pulling the entire rest of the tree down with it in a storm to make one reconsider their methodologies! So yeah, it has happened. But for special cases, like certain historic or ultra-high-value specimens, it may still be warranted. And for that matter, one of the sessions at a recent Arborist's Conference I attended dealt with some practices in Hong Kong, etc. that vary wildly from what we do here-braces, props, struts, etc. all over the place. I wouldn't do it, but I also wouldn't tell those folks they're wrong.

+oM


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Your first two sentences, "Hi there! as you can see, my apple tree is dying. I need to put something close to it as a replacement that will still shade the bed underneath it."
It seems to me you're putting the cart before the horse. Those plants in the bed under the tree can be moved in under a half hour and shouldn't even be considered when it comes to the tree or it's replacement.
I'd cut it down and start over. Clearly the tree is far past it's prime and the split has speeded things up, although the bolt bought you several years of enjoying the tree. Now it's over.
I would join all three beds to eliminate the spotty, busy look, and have a large flowing bed with all sorts of possibilities.
Mike


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Good catch, Mike. Trees can be thought of as the "skeleton" of the landscape. As such, their placement and function comes before all else. Incidentally dingo, if you've got the time, look around here for some pics of mikebotann's yard. Your mind will be blown!

+oM


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