I personally am partial to Scarlet Oak, as I have seen some fantastic fall color. But you almost have to shop for them in the fall to get hte best color, or buy several smaller ones, and raise them in a root pruning pot for a year to find which has to bes color, and give the rest away. As for canopy, IMHO, with reasonable pruning, you aren't likely to have any real canopy problems. Those that I know about locally, have had a good full form. Hopefully, Ken will come along soon and give you better first hand knowledge as he's one of our resident Oak guys.

BTW, these pictures are of a Scarlet Oak in a parking lot landscape island fall 2011.

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This was our Scarlet Oak Fall 2011.

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To answer your questions:

"My question for the group is does the N Red Oak form a fuller more uniform crown than a Scarlet?"

Perhaps somewhat, but the difference is, in my opinion, not significant.

"In general does the scarlet oak really have more reliable red fall foliage than a Northern Red Oak would?"

This is absolutely true. I've seem some Red Oaks with absolutely abysmal fall foliage, but have yet to see a Scarlet Oak which isn't a spectacular red.

"Are there any other advantages to one over the other?"

N Red Oak is, in general, a larger tree at maturity as far as I remember. If you want something really big, go for Red.

"But, maybe that's a good look for an oak or there's some other advantage to having a fork in the trunk that I'm not aware of??"

Nope, there's no good reason for oaks (or most other trees, for that matter) to have a fork in their trunk. Bad nursery practice.

i planted both down here in adrian mi.. 4/2000 ... 6 to 8 foot bare root ... most are now going on 30 feet tall ..

i recommend Quercus coccinea .. may as well learn the latin ...

i am wondering abut your 20 foot space...

but Ark hit the nail on the head ... MAKE YOUR SELECTION .. FOR COLOR.. AT COLOR CHANGE TIME... which in MI just happens to also be one of your options for planting ... though i did mine in april.. just after ground thaw ...which is when the oak expert gave me the dormant bare root trees ... ['gave me'.. yeah right.. lol] ...

go to the nursery.. and TAG the tree you want.. and then decide planting time ... MAYBE oaks prefer spring planting.. i simply cant remember ...

and do understand.. color is not simply genetics.. some years the color is sublime.. and other year.. based on weather stressors.. muddy or non-existent ...

ken

I think Oaks prefer spring planting, but I'm pretty sure that "hardened off" B&B can be done in fall.

Scarlet oaks, IME, almost always have at least "good" color, and some excellent, whereas Red Oaks can be anywhere from colorless (I've seen some turn a yellow-green or straight to brown), to a halfway decent red, but not as good as Scarlet, or even many Q. albas I've seen.

From the research I did before buying our Scarlet Oak Quercus coccinea (agree with Ken, learn the latin of whatever you like, as it can save yourself much stress), spring planting as Ken did is best for bare root planting. They have a fairly narrow time frame where soil temps give the best result, according to research paper's from Cornell University. In the north, that window of soil temps is easiest to hit after ground thaw, here in the south, it's easier to hit in the late fall. However, ours was a B&B (not real common with this species) planted in November (our soil temps also happened to match the soil temps for best results from the Cornell papers)and it has done great. Because we planted it in the fall, I got to choose best color as well. FTR, it is also by far the most money I have spent on a tree. Ours was a HUGH transplant, with fantastic color, that has done great, we got exactly what we wanted. Everything is a tradeoff in some fashion.

Arktrees

First, thanks everyone for the great responses! Arktrees thanks for posting those photos. That foliage color is awesome. I understand the color quality will vary from year to year, but that's fine with me. I was leaning towards Q. Coccinea (I actually like learning the latin, thanks guys!) to begin with and after hearing the comments here, that's the tree I will go with.

A couple follow up questions. There were a few comments on the tree size. Famartin noted the Red Oak is larger at maturity. Now, I know I won't be around at that time, and both of these trees could grow to be very large, but I would rather have the smaller of the two.

Ken had questioned the 20' space I have. There will basically be a 20' radius of open area around the tree. On the edge of that circle is my house on one side and a mature Sugar Maple on the other. I was thinking I could prune the lower branches over the years while the tree is still young to keep the lower 8' or 10' of the trunk bare and the branches away from the structure of my house. Though maybe this is not the best idea or the best tree for the location??

Also, I'm not sure the best way to go about purchasing a tree and getting one that has good fall color. My local nursery stocks Q.Coccinea in 10 gal containers. The cost is $170. But, their stock is low in the fall. They only have two Q. Coccinea's right now. Both are left overs from this spring and have cut leaders, which I would not buy. They told me they could order one for me. But, I would not be surprised if it also has a cut leader and it would also be just one tree!

My other option would be to travel to a nursery in a nearby city, select a tree and have it delivered. I'm sure this would cost me quite a bit, but would potentially have the prime pick as arktrees did.

With the bare root option, do you select a tree while it is still leafed out and then receive the tree bare root? I don't know of any nurseries in the Lansing Michigan area that sell bare root trees.

IMHO, 20' radius will be fine in our life times. Trees grow much more densely than that in a forest setting. Even at max size, most people will choose to leave the tree where it is at 20' from the house. Beyond that, how long is your house likely to realistically be there? I would bet that most of the houses built today will be gone at 50 years. So IMHO, I would not worry about it.

As for the bare root trees, you would probable order a bundle of 5-6 2-3 foot bare root trees. Those would have to then be planted in a specialized root pruning pot with WELL draining potting media, and maintained (fertilizer and proper watering) through the first growing season. That fall, you can then select the tree you like the best for your own use, and then give the rest as gifts to friends, family, daycare, church, whatever you choose along with proper planting. Now Ken got larger bare root trees, but he used them all for his own purposes, and so he was not trying to select the best fall color of the bunch.

As for the option of having it delivered, that is what we had to do for our B&B tree. We also had it planted with supervision so that it would be planted correctly as the rootball and tree was simply to large and heavy to do it ourselves. I justified it all with the fact that I had one shot, the tree was hugh for the price, color fantastic, and I didn't have time to do it myself during that time frame anyway. I personally would at least go check out those in the nearby city, and go from there. For reference, our tree was B&B, 30"+ conical rootball, 2" caliper, about 14' tall, and ~$200 before taxes and other costs.

Arktrees

Really, Arktrees? I have trouble with believing most houses built today will be gone in 50 years...

lansing.. right???

are you relying on retail sores??? i bet so ...

crimminey.. MI has more tree farms than most states in the union ...

you have plenty of time.. to find a tree farm.. and waive some cash around their noses .. lol ...

see link for google: lansing area tree farms ...

down a few sites.. is 31 entries for lansing tree farms.. the yellow pages ... crimminey man.. you can ONLY FIND TWO TREES IN MI?????

again ... select the tree while in color.. and either take delivery after the leaves fall off [ease of transport] .. of TAG IT for spring delivery ...

personally.. i would not go much bigger than 1 to 1.5 inch.. to 8 feet tall transplant ... you will have to talk to the local peeps about bare root.. i actually went to mansfield OH .. and they were pulled out of a refrigerated warehouse in april ...

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: link

Yes really famartin. Reason I say that is that most people seem to think they have to "update', "remodel', "rebuild" etc etc. There are ALLOT of houses 20-30 y/o in BAD shape. So yes, I do believe the majority will be gone in 50 years. Be rebuilt or something else. That will also mean that the location where they are built now, will be completely cleared at that time. So any large tree is likely to be gone at that time. Just as happens now.

Mario, completely agree with Ken. You should be able to do better. If you buy a container tree, be aware that there can be massive root problems if not handled properly. That was the reason I specified root pruning pots. I bought the big tree, because that is what was available. I got away with it, even with the worst summer in 30+ years it's first growing season. But I was out in the heat (hit 110F on August 4 last year tying that all time record high, probable had ~30 days 100+F) every day staying after it. No doubt my life could have been easier with a smaller tree. It can be done, but like everything, you pay a price.

Arktrees

Ken - I am relying on retail...Van Atta's in Bath, MI. I have gone the yellow pages route. The tree farms in my area only grow x-mas trees, as far as the ones I have called. I was able to find one other local retail source that has Scarlet Oaks on hand, but they are only open on weekdays, while I'm at work. My free time for doing fun stuff like picking out trees is very limited these days. Making a weekend trip to a few tree farms is a big venture for me. So a local source is key. Anyways, I may just end up going the bare root route as arktrees has suggested and order some stock from an online seller.

Tell you what.......I think I really like Quercus coccinea now!

+oM

All my Q Rubra seem to be vase shaped and that includes one that I planted in 1996, that's pretty big. They must get more spreading with age. My Q Coccinea is only 1 ft tall so I don't know anything to add about that. Arktrees you must live in a fast developing area. My house is 36 years old and is nearly new to the first house I owned that was built in the 1930's and is still being lived in by somebody else. This 36 year old house is in good shape and I will probably be here til I croak. It must be very different in your area.

I love the look of our native N. red oaks in the woods around here. Such nice glossy foliage and vigorous habit. One habitat they seem to really enjoy colonizing is under large, old red pine plantations. They go nuts in there.

Still thinking about that coccinea though. Must get a few of those, whether for my own property or for the city that employs me. Just great-looking tree.

+oM

Tom/Mario
Love our Scarlet Oak, but that's not the reason for posting again. Just wanted to make sure that you and everyone are aware that they originate primarily on dry ridge tops, and as such don't like sites that tend to say excessively moist. Also, if you have them in root pruning pots, they need excellent drainage.

Poaky, yeah, you could say that I live in a fast developing area. :-) For reference, the newest unemployment rate has the area at 5.6% which is high for this area. For most of the last 20-25 years it has typically been ~2.2-3.5%.

Arktrees

Sorta on topic:

IMO you should plan for 100 years or so out of your residence.

Sure some homes in the city are older but most are in ridiculously bad shape or have been rehabbed extensively.

My home was one of the first siding and wood subdivision rectangles. It is 67 years old and doing ok. Many others in the area are slightly newer but not quite right due to human neglect though. Another thirty years and its empty lot near derelict home time.

And yeah, I know with maintenance homes can last longer. My neighbor helped rebuild this plantation home across the street. IMO if it was not a commercial venture it would have been time to let it fall. Amazing the problems in the nicest of homes from 1850.

Wow! Those red/scarlet oak pictures are amazing! There is a red oak of some sort on the property here but it never turns red - just a rusty brown. Actually, the color can be impressive, especially on a sunny day, when viewed through the living room window.
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I've never been able to figure out exactly what kind of oak it is, other than being a red oak (pointy ends on the lobes...) but the leaves never quite match any examples I've seen in books or sites for ID - and the squirrels get all the acorns very quickly so I've never found an intact acorn to try to identify it that way!

Does anybody know where I can buy a scarlet oak in Arkansas and do they grow well in Arkansas? Thanks everybody!
-Josh

Pine Ridge Gardens only sells Arkansas natives and they have it listed on their site (link below). I have bought a few times from them and they are a pleasure to do business with and their stock has been very vigorous for me.

There are some nurseries in NWA that carry this bnb (Westwoods is where Arktrees got his I believe).

Where are you located in our fine state?

Edit: and yes, they grow very well here =)

Here is a link that might be useful: Quercus coccinea - you will have to scroll down a little...

This post was edited by j0nd03 on Wed, Jul 31, 13 at 16:48

Josh,
What part of Arkansas are you in? How big are you looking for? At least in North Arkansas they do VERY well. Would think it would be the same for the whole state.

Arktrees

John is correct. I don't know what they have at the moment though. IN the spring they had one or two bnb around, a few in containers, and they had very nice White Oak in bnb as well.

Arktrees