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sam_md

Red Horsechestnut

sam_md
10 years ago

AKA Aesculus x carnea is a beautiful tree when in bloom. I understand that many of the parks and boulevards in Paris are decorated with this tree.
Here's my question, other than bloom, what redeeming qualities does this tree have? Following pix show the foliage disorder that we observe for fully three months of the year.
Here's a great example why one should observe trees all year round, not just when they are "pretty".
AFAIK clonal selections are all susceptable to this disorder.
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Comments (51)

  • Embothrium
    10 years ago

    'Autumn Splendor' should have greenish flowers. When you start getting into the hybrids between eastern North American species various different colors (including ~orange) and combinations are present.

  • Dzitmoidonc
    10 years ago

    Sam, the red A. pavia blooms are more important that just aesthetic for reasons. They open about the time hummingbirds are migrating north in our (yours and mine) area and are one of the few trees blooming when they do. My A. pavia also keeps a decent looking green cover late. A. flava looks like a tree to be mercifully cut down at the same time because of the leaf browning.

  • whaas_5a
    10 years ago

    Autumn Splender's flowers start out green before they bloom. More yellowish then white I guess. Definitely not greenish in bloom.

  • j0nd03
    10 years ago

    'Fort McNair' planted around late April/early May this year. The foliage hasn't suffered much at all and looks very green and healthy.

    {{gwi:424073}}

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    Aesculus pavia planted a few weeks earlier than the FM. It defoliated after about a month because the sun was too much for the little tree. It did push out two little leaves afterward.

    {{gwi:424076}}

    As you can see, they both receive the same conditions. They get shaded by a big j. virginiana around 2-3 till sunset. I actually planted the FM so close to replace the pavia when its leaves looked so terrible. Originally, the pavia had a grass free mulch mound like the FM, but I neglected it some after it dropped all its leaves. I'm going to move it to a shadier spot this fall. Both were in leaf when they were planted. The carnea hybrid is the clear winner in my yard WRT scorch/disease so far.

    {{gwi:424077}}

    All pics were taken this morning. FTR 'Fort McNair' is my favorite spring flowering tree!

  • Embothrium
    10 years ago

    Main point being 'Autumn Splendor' is not white. 'Fort McNair' was selected in Washington, DC; another claimed to not scorch is 'O'Neill Red', this was introduced by Monrovia nursery in California. However, stock presented under this name at a retail nursery I worked at during the 1990s really looked like it consisted of variable seedlings - different specimens had different flowers etc. Since Aesculus x carnea produces fertile seeds and these are large, easily handled the temptation would certainly be there to grow seedlings under a cultivar name instead of bothering with grafts.

  • j0nd03
    10 years ago

    My main point being at least my clone of 'Fort McNair' might not be as scorch prone as the OP states

  • Embothrium
    10 years ago

    As we can see in the above pictures the leaves of 'Fort McNair' are more like those of A. pavia, possibly to at least some extent the scorch susceptibility splits according to whether a clone has leaves more like A. hippocastanum or more like A. pavia.

  • sam_md
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    {{gwi:424078}}
    I passed by this Red Horsechestnut today in the sleepy little hamlet of Delta, Pa. At first glance I thought it was a dying tree. I have no clue as to cultivar.
    Interesting that both Monrovia and Weston Nurseries declare 'Ft McNair' to have "disease resistant" foliage and pink flowers.
    I'm not entirely sure that the disorder is a disease. Since it happens in the hottest, dryest time of the year isn't it likely that the problem in the pics is leaf scorch rather than some sort of biological pathogen?

  • hairmetal4ever
    10 years ago

    My favorite Aesculus is the Yellow Buckeye, A. flava.

    Usually decent to good fall color, and the yellow blooms are subtly very beautiful. Also cleaner, less scorch-prone foliage.

  • Embothrium
    10 years ago

    The two main categories are pests and diseases. Physiological leaf burn falls in the latter.

  • katob Z6ish, NE Pa
    10 years ago

    Wow. I always thought the scorch was due to some fungus or other pathogen attack. I feel kind of stupid not to have made the dry weather connection.....
    I may have to try ft mcNair after all. I've been worried about getting attached to a beautiful bloomer that has pathetic summer foliage.
    I've also heard the seedling strain story. One nurseryperson went as far to say they did come true from seed and that's how they grew and sold them.

  • hairmetal4ever
    10 years ago

    It's heat/dryness. It doesn't even have to be that "dry" per se. They just seem to need a LOT of water when it's even moderately hot, such as typical Eastern and Midwestern summer conditions.

    Even in wet/cool summers they scorch around here. Same thing when I lived in Ohio.

  • Embothrium
    10 years ago

    Also see it here, the dullest major metropolitan area in the country. But don't remember it being as bad as in the pictures on this thread.

  • whaas_5a
    10 years ago

    Both pictures are showing leaf blotch from what I can tell. Have you had alot of rain and humdity this year? Although you said you see that every year?

    The establshied x carnea don't look nearly as bad around here. There are several planted in parking lot islands at the local hospital that don't get irrigated. I'll take pics when I'm there this week. No idea on the cultivars.

  • Embothrium
    10 years ago

    A handbook for my area observes

    Some trees will show symptoms of this nonparasitic problem year after year, regardless of the weather

    Here is a link that might be useful: Horse-chestnut (Aesculus sp.)-Leaf Scorch

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    10 years ago

    Yeah, like BBoy says this is a problem even in maritime climates. Last time I was in Paris, toward the end of summer, many of the city's famous horse chestnuts had a rather ratty appearance.
    Even in the wettest summer since I've lived here (10"+ in June, 7" in July, already have had more than the normal Aug. rainfall) my purported A. X planteriensis is somewhat yellowed and partly scorched. I think if you want one, you just have to deal with this possibilty. Don't plant it in the most prominent part of your garden.
    They are also rather slow to develop to blooming size unless you buy a blooming size plant from a nursery. The small ones I got at Forestfarm about 3 years ago look like they will take at least another 5 until they are blooming.

    Interested twist though, a potted 'Ft. McNair' (both from Ff) "died" very quickly last spring (2012). Had lost all its leaves by mid-summer. I was positive it was dead. Because of my laziness I left the carcass amid some containers awaiting recycling of their potting soil. Lo & behold, next spring the darn thing had leafed out again. No, it did not grow from below the graft. Surely one of the most impressive "near death" plant experiences I'd ever seen. Makes one wonder if such behavior is just part of these plant's evolutionary schtick. I knew of a large A. X hippocastanum in Fairfax County that mostly lost its leaves by late summer every year. But it hadn't kept it from growing at a good clip, on old farm soil. I knew the man who had planted it in the 1940s when he bought the farm. He was in the Navy and had brought the "conkers" back from somewhere in Europe. Sadly the tree is gone now, a victim of McMansion development.

  • whaas_5a
    10 years ago

    Damn, so thats where all the rain went! I just opened my $300 July water bill tonight. August will be worse. I'm officially giving up on watering the rest of the year.

    Leaf scorch and blotch look very similar.
    If I was a betting man the first one is scorch and the second is blotch because of the defined yellow margins. There might be more to identifying the differences but time is slim this evening!

    End of the day if you want pink flowers on an Aesulus plant A. pavia. If you don't absolutely ned pink flowers go with the yellow buckeye hybrids (Autumn Splendor and Homestead).

  • j0nd03
    10 years ago

    *BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZER*

    If you want the best pink, get a carnea hybrid like Fort McNair!!!!!

    I've seen many pavia in bloom and they were all red (not bright pink!) and not near as noticeable as Fort McNair =-p

    /HomerRant

  • Embothrium
    10 years ago

    A. pavia can also be yellow. Here there is a fungal leaf disease present that is encouraged by damp springs.

    This post was edited by bboy on Wed, Aug 28, 13 at 17:40

  • whaas_5a
    10 years ago

    An Aesculus pavia species plant with yellow flowers?

    Are you talking about a sub-species or hybrid?

  • whaas_5a
    10 years ago

    The x carnea is this little parking lot median is completely free of any issues.

    Looks just like Jon's but 10x the size. Wet spring, very dry summer starting mid July this year.

  • sam_md
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Did you know that Aeschylus was the father of Greek Tragedy? Interesting that this genus produces poisonous seed, fit for neither man nor beast.
    Pictured here is Common Horse Chestnut, native to Europe and not well-suited to the mid-Atlantic. This is the pistillate parent of Red Horsechestnut and I suspect contributes the congenital defect. You will forgive me for using tomorrow's date :)
    Red Buckeye, the staminate parent OTOH is a North American native makes it through the season without foliage damage.
    {{gwi:424079}}
    And here is the wider shot, what a beautiful sight. How would you like to have that in your front yard. Does this tree enhance the value of the property?
    IMO any tree with Aesculus hippocastanum blood in it is not fit for the mid-Atlantic.
    {{gwi:424080}}
    These pics were taken today in NE Maryland.

  • Embothrium
    10 years ago

    Yellow variants are a normal part of the expression of Aesculus pavia genetics.

  • whaas_5a
    10 years ago

    Aesculus hippocastanum is no longer grown or sold in this area. There are several specimens that look worse than what you show here.

    I still think Aesculus x arnoldiana 'Autumn Splendor' which is cross of Aesculus flava, Aesculus pavia and Aesculus glabra, is this only Aesculus that should be planted. Same goes with x Homestead. I select these over x carnea selections as they have fall color.

    As for the species plants only flava (not sure if octandra is the latest species name or not), pavia and parviflora /var. serotina should only be planted.

    I didn't have any luck with Chinese and Japanese horsechestnut. Wonder if anyone else has experience?

    Here is my pavia foilage quality. Starts to wear out this time of year.
    {{gwi:424082}}

    And here is Autumn Splendor
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  • j0nd03
    10 years ago

    I see what bboy was talking about. Your pavia foliage is very similar to my FM.

    Love the foliage on the Autumn Splendor, too. Have you witnessed quality fall foliage on it? I know last year was a bust year for fall foliage in many places in the east.

    I have an Aesculus glabra var. arguta ready to be planted out this fall, too =)

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    10 years ago

    A few days ago I stumbled upon an Aesculus hippocastanum with surprisingly little foliar damage. Right next to one in the same yard that showed much more browning...as would be typical with our hot summers. (remember, even in Paris this sometimes happens) I wonder if it's a favorable random genetic variance.
    Pictures soon...I hope.

  • mulchmama
    10 years ago

    Speaking of Aesculus hippocastanum, I've noticed they scorch like the above photos all over England. It justcomes with having that tree, I guess.

    We have a Fort McNair, and it only just started looking ratty a week ago. Normally it starts looking bad in midsummer. Still, it's my favorite tree. Nothing is prettier in springtime.
    {{gwi:424085}}

  • sam_md
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Hi MulchMama, you're helping me to prove my point, your tree is beautiful in the Spring. Could you post a pic of what it looks like now?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------This pic is from the Aesculus pavia growing on the hill in back of Winterthur Museum. It happens to be a beautiful specimen of Red Buckeye which is the staminate parent of Red Horsechestnut. I took this pic two days ago after a prolonged period of drought here. I cannot fault this shrub/tree, the foliage is without blemish.
    {{gwi:424086}}

  • bengz6westmd
    10 years ago

    Horsechestnuts/buckeyes typically get leaf-scorch late in the season. One that doesn't is bottlebrush buckeye (Aesculus parviflora) -- leaves are immaculate until dropping.

    It's a large shrub/small tree tho.

  • j0nd03
    10 years ago

    Here's mine Sam. We went about a month with no rain and highs in the 90's to 100 with a very recent cool down since the last time I posted a pic. The foliage is definitely the worse for wear, however, it is still a stunner in spring like MulchMama's photo indicates. More so than any other buckeye I have seen. Also of note, both were planted this spring and the a. pavia has no leaves left at all! What is the exposure on your pavia and please define a Maryland 'drought' and the temperatures during this dry period. I believe your tree in my climate would not look nearly so respectable.

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  • Embothrium
    10 years ago

    There has been a tendency for plants of "Aesculus chinensis" to turn out to be A. indica instead. This isn't 100% hardy even in Seattle (USDA 8), where the ends of the branches die back during colder winters.

    A. octandra is a synonym of A. flava.

  • mulchmama
    10 years ago

    Sam, here are pics taken today. This faces south in Kansas. That is an invitation to leaf scorch. It's always ratty this time of year, but it is usually worse than you see here. This only began a few weeks ago, while it usually gets ratty looking in early August.

    {{gwi:424091}}

    {{gwi:424092}}

  • bengz6westmd
    10 years ago

    Below's a description of the Aesculus leaf-scorch culprit -- a fungus:

    Here is a link that might be useful: Aesculus leaf-scorch

  • whaas_5a
    10 years ago

    Leaf bloch and leaf scorch are two different things!

  • hairmetal4ever
    9 years ago

    I have to say I love this genus.

    What's odd is - I've seen the opposite of some posters here - generally, A. flava does NOT scorch, but A. pavia does!

    I think the genuine, GRAFTED Ft. McNair is relatively scorch resistant. I can handle something that defoliates by the end of September, but not July or August.

    A. flava actually lasts long enough to have good fall color here. Although there are some that seem to scorch (I think they are flava, but might be glabra) - but they're planted adjacent to an asphalt parking lot.

    A. parvifolia always looks great.

    Haven't had experience w/Autumn Splendor etc.

    I think, aside from seedgrown A. hippocastanum and A. glabra, which are lost causes here in MD at least, the rest are probably best sited like a Sugar Maple (although Acer saccharum is not nearly as scorch prone as most Aesculus); keep it away from pavement, give it room to spread, and a nice moist (but not waterlogged) soil. A north-facing slope also probably helps, as does some afternoon shade.

  • j0nd03
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Another redeeming quality would be growth rate and form. This is a pic of my tree this year before I mowed. Look how much it has filled in since the first pics I posted only 2 growing seasons ago! A fabulous addition to the garden IMO


  • sam_md
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    This pic was taken May 8 in Baltimore. All flowering chestnuts look good in May.

    Don't know the name of the cv, don't think it matters. Same planting today, you be the judge. I call it an inherent defect.
    About this time of year someone here usually starts up a Fall Colors thread. Aesculus hippocastanaum and hybrids never appear on those threads, wonder why?

  • whaas_5a
    6 years ago

    Agreed Aesculus hippocastanaum is by far one of the worst species in the bunch.

    Could you argue the same about some trees not appearing in the spring or summer bloom threads? Granted they don't look crappy in spring though.

    Not sure one can write off all the Aesculus × carnea cultivars.

    I neglected the young one I planted last fall (can't plant A. pavia at the new place) so it was exposed to dry and very humid conditions this past summer. It actually still looked good a few weeks ago. I'll snap a pic if it still has its leaves as Aesculus around here colors up or drops leaves around this time.



  • bengz6westmd
    6 years ago

    Bottlebrush buckeye colors well -- this pic is before peak yellow:

  • edlincoln
    6 years ago

    Aren't they pretty salt tolerant? That's another potential selling point for' people on the coast, or in Northern areas where they aggressively salt the roads. There are some beautiful red horse chestnut on George's Island,

  • j0nd03
    6 years ago

    After a horrible dry hot prolonged summer, my ft. mcnair is turning a pretty yellow as fall finally begins. Many native trees defoliated early or had problems with pests. Somehow this tree didn't which really surprised me, honestly. I'll take a pic and upload it this weekend

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    It's a shame they have this problem. I have a small Aesculus chinensis and so far it seems pretty much immune to leaf dropping issue, which bedevils my 'Ft. McNair' and 'Plantierensis'. Would like to try crossing it with A. pavia someday to create a 'non leaf dropping' carnea type plant. People have poo-poo'd A. X carneas, but a big one in full bloom - like the one at the Jenkins Arboretum in SE PA - is a fine sight. But no one should have to deal with the way they look at the end of summer.

  • j0nd03
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Not perfect but not bad at all. The yellow leaves it had dropped yesterday before I could snag a pic. Many Oaks, elms, and hickories already defoliated with no color change so I'm very impressed this one has hung in there as well as it has!

    Only 0.5" rain the two months here with highs mostly in the 90's

    Fort McNair 10-14-2017 https://imgur.com/gallery/2LqOJ


    Edit: Also to note: my a. pavia, flava, and parvilfora defoliated back in late July/August but haven't had as long as this tree to establish

  • j0nd03
    6 years ago

    More yellows showing up!


    Fort McNair https://imgur.com/gallery/kO4vy

  • whaas_5a
    6 years ago

    Is that Jon from Arkansas? Nice to see you still around.

    Mine looked exactly like yours as of a few days ago. Now leafless as the winds have been astounding...worse on my open lot.

    Hopefully you got some much needed rain. We finally got a dose just in time for the ensuing cold temps...mid 20s to low 30s several nights this upcoming week.


  • sam_md
    Original Author
    7 months ago

    Guignardia blotch ... in the United States this fungal disease only occurs east of the Great Plains .... according to Mo Botanical Garden site. Univ of Minnesota and Ohio State Univ also have good info on this disease.

    Here' today's pix in Maryland. I didn't have to seek this tree out. It is the first Red Horse Chestnut I came to in local town.




  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    7 months ago

    My A. turbinata is almost immune to this and any other foliar issues.


    Crazy to read thru this thread. I wonder where I saw a European HC that seemed scorch resistant...I'll never remember now!

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    7 months ago

    Oh btw it's the plant I thought was A. chinensis, bboy made a strong case for it being A. turbinata and to the degree I can apply mental energy to typing it out, that is probably correct.

  • arbordave (SE MI)
    7 months ago

    sam_md and davidrt28, Guignardia blotch is very bad this year on the Ft McNairs we've planted (photo taken today 9/5/23). I haven't noticed any blotch on our Yellow buckeyes or the one young A. turbinata we have. A couple Autumn Splendors I've looked at recently only had minor blotch symptoms. I'll have to check some of the A. glabras in the area to see how they are faring.


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