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[images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

Posted by snasxs 7-8 VA (My Page) on
Fri, Sep 26, 08 at 18:33

Actually, Chinaberry-trees have great benefit to human beings.

(1) They are not just fragrant, they actually repel mosquitoes (West Nile virus). If you have one such tree in your backyard, you should notice it.

(2) They resist and stop pests. Chinaberry trees have been used strategically in pine-forests to stop pine-worms.

(3) They clean up the air and absorb greenhouse gas. A research in Japan shows that one tenth of an Acre Chinaberry-trees daily absorb 3850 kilogram CO2 and release 730 kilogram O2.

Here are some images of these trees:


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

Certainly a very nice tree to have where it is native in eastern Asia. But with a proven track record of being a nuisance invasive species in southern North America.

Can't be grown at all where I am, the summers are too cold for it here.

Resin


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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

I prefer to admire them from afar ... like across an ocean.
They are a real nuisance in the southern United States.


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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

They use to be all over the place when I was growing up in rural Arkansas. Hate(d) those berries. Plus the trees seemed to be dead half the time, and often around a old rundown house or something similar. They also seemed to have died out. I have not seen a living one since I was a kid.


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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

arktrees,

Correct. Chinaberry-trees are actually pretty picky about environment and humidity. So it is a surprise to find them listed as "invasive". They tend to prosper during a few good years and then disappear completely ... although their wood is really strong and good.


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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

  • Posted by bboy z8 WA USA (My Page) on
    Sun, Sep 28, 08 at 12:52

Growth Requirements
Adapted to Coarse Textured Soils Yes
Adapted to Fine Textured Soils Yes
Adapted to Medium Textured Soils Yes
Anaerobic Tolerance None
CaCO3 Tolerance Medium
Cold Stratification Required No
Drought Tolerance High
Fertility Requirement Low
Fire Tolerance None
Frost Free Days, Minimum 365
Hedge Tolerance Medium
Moisture Use Low
pH, Minimum 4.00
pH, Maximum 8.00
Planting Density per Acre, Minimum 150
Planting Density per Acre, Maximum 300
Precipitation, Minimum 20
Precipitation, Maximum 60
Root Depth, Minimum (inches) 60
Salinity Tolerance Medium
Shade Tolerance Intolerant
Temperature, Minimum (F) 17

Here is a link that might be useful: Characteristics


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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

Note that these are originated from Asia and Australia. The plant system of Australia is more isolated and delicate than that of Texas. Chinaberry trees being a native of Oceania have never become a dominant species on the continent of Australia or nearby islands. Compared to the Eden forest of Australia, native plants of Texas are much tougher.


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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

bboy,
Strange the min temp listed in your post is 17F. The area I grew up in is Zone 7A, and would occasionally get much colder, yet all the trees I remember were all old mature trees, with a trunk caliper of probable 10-12 inches. They had certainly been there for a few years. However, if I had to pick a reason for their ultimately failure, then I would say it would be the occasional cold, while summer could be very hot. The climate at that location is pretty tough on allot of plants. Gets the cold of winter (most years), but summer is as though it's a couple hundred miles further south, while spring/fall is something else all together.


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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

Definitely a substantially invasive tree in the SE United States. Yuck, no thanks. Got enough problems with ailanthus, mimosa, paulownia, etc, without adding to the problem.


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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

My chinaberries have nothing to do with repelling mosquitoes. We have loads of Aedes albopictus and Culex spp. (I think they're quinquefasciatus but I'm not that good with Culex), two of the primary transmitters of West Nile Virus. In fact, quite the opposite - since these trees attract birds, and Culex quinquefasciatus are especially attracted to birds, well, you can guess the outcome. I don't know where they're breeding, I can't find an obvious water source, but the adults are all too alive and healthy despite many chinaberries.


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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

Purple loosestrife was never the dominant species where it was from either, but it can out compete cattails and other species in wetlands where introduced. Native species homeland performance does not = introduced area performance


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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

Where I do not oppose your last statement, I find it indispensable to distinguish the Oceania ecology from Euro-Asian ecology. The later is on the largest continent with the fiercest competition, while the former is isolated with primitive Marsupials thriving.


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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

Plant competition is intense anywhere, and the Australian flora certainly does have a large share of flora relics, but so does China. China is the last refuge of a great many plant lineages that have died out elsewhere. And yet of the northern temperate areas (Europe, North America and Asia) the Chinese deciduous forests hold the greatest diversity thanks to its connections with the tropical Asian rainforest, facilitating species migrations. So with eastern china so floristically rich, logically that is where the most intense competition takes place, no? But! If that is the case, how can such ancient lineages as, ginkgo, cunninghamia, the many magnolias, and others too obscure to reference still grow and thrive in areas with such competition? It seems counter-intuitive, but the presence and persistence of basal lineages such as the marsupials in Australia and ancient plants in China shows that these things can persist in intense competition. Anything surviving to this day in both places proves that they are successful competitors, because poor competitors die.


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competition

And I should point out that chinaberry has a competitive advantage in North America because of its novel (to its new land) chemical defenses that native insects have not adapted to.


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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

Fledgeling, I agree with your logic in your last posts, especially the new-comer effects. The Asian-mainland case does support your argument. Thanks.

However, it actually misses my original point. "I find it indispensable to distinguish the Oceania ecology from Euro-Asian ecology." Are you really familiar with the Australian flora system(s)? Give me a knowledge based description of Australian flora system(s); and compare that to Texas.


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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

Not sure what the relevance of the Oceania ecology is to this thread - Chinaberry is native to Asia (including southern China, as the English name suggests!), so that is the relevant ecology to discuss. Although also native to tropical Australia, the plants in cultivation in the USA won't be from there (those origins wouldn't be winter-hardy there).

Resin


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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

They are not evasive here and I know some have been here for a long time. The holly tree (Brazilian pepper) is the worst.


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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

I don't buy the argument about repelling mosquitoes. Chinaberries are all around me and the mosquitoes will eat you alive here. People think Wax Myrtle repels mosquitoes too, it's simply not true.


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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

The poster immediately above has at least another posting name.

"Invasiveness" is unscientific. There is no quantitative proof. It is all speculations. People see large number of exotic flowers, and they react to it. Large number does not equate dominant. For example, passenger pigeons move in large crowds. But they were rather endangered and went extinct shortly after 1700 when ...

In fact, I find maize and wheat plants have crowded out more native plants than all Purple loosestrife combined. Is this not obvious?

I find houses, roads, cities and real properties are more "invasive" and "crowded out" more native species than any single invasive tree. Next time, compare the land took by your house and farm to that occupied by a tree of heaven.


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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.


Some info on Chinaberry trees outside their native home:

When Chinaberry was introduced into the U.S. as an ornamental its natural enemies (diseases or insects) were not brought along with it to maintain its populations at low levels. Along road sides, in natural areas and forests, and marshes Chinaberry has the ability to grow rapidly and displace the native vegetation in those areas. Through prolific reproduction via seed as well as vegetative reproduction, it is able to shade out other species by forming a dense thicket. The leaf litter produced by Chinaberry causes the soil to become more alkaline, giving an advantage to those species that fair well in alkaline soils.

Chinaberry has all the qualities of a successful weed. This plant is adaptable to many environmental conditions, is virtually disease and insect free, and thrives in disturbed or open areas.
Birds spread seed effectively but the fruits are poisonous to humans in quantity, livestock, and other animals. Because the seeds are poisonous, birds may become paralyzed after ingesting seeds or reach a "drunken" state. Besides the problem of toxicity, its usefulness as a shade tree in urban areas is diminished by its tendency to sprout where unwanted and to turn sidewalks into dangerously slippery surfaces when the fruits fall.

The first symptoms of poisoning appear a few hours after ingestion. They may include loss of appetite, vomiting, constipation or diarrhea, bloody faeces, stomach pain, pulmonary congestion, cardiac arrest, rigidity, lack of coordination and general weakness. Death may take place after about 24 hours. Like in relatives, Tetranortriterpene neurotoxins consititute an important toxic principle. Chinaberry also reproduces vegetatively when the tree is cut, producing suckers that form dense stands. The Chinaberry trees can create dense stands and suppress native vegetation (Very bad especially for tender small native endangered or threatened plant species).

They can create masses so thick that access is severely limited. Control of this species will eventually need herbicide control since mechanical manipulation will only spread seed and root sprouts.
As well as all of the above problems, again the main threat is Very bad especially for tender small native endangered or threatened plant species that would normally grow in the sunny spots of a forest, but are shaded out fast instead.

Also In spite of statements the Chinaberry will keep away mosquitoes, observations have failed to show the truth of the statement, and have not been proven all the way, and in high mosquito areas people are quite as liable to be bitten while sitting under a Chinaberry than any other tree. And it there was an effect on mosquitoes I doubt it would be a strong one, most likely very small.

They do resist and stop pests form their selfs because they contain toxic compounds inside of them, but like the mosquito thoughts, if stopping pests were true I doubt it would be a strong one, most likely very small IMO.

They might take up good amounts of CO2 but there are likely many trees that equal it or exceed it in CO2 absorption.


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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

The poster immediately above has at least another posting name.

What does that mean?

I think, snasxs, that you don't have the same understanding as most of us do when we use the term "invasive" for plants. In my area, for example, there are areas where there are acres and acres of Ligustrum sinense (chinese privet). The plants are so thick and dense that little else grows there. Usually what is there are vines that can scramble above the privet. All non-climbing plants have been suppressed by this relative mono-culture. There is quantitative proof - studies and papers galore.

Certainly the farming and housing activities of humans have consumed way too much of the native flora and fauna. Humans are quite invasive!


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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

1. "Along road sides .. Chinaberry has the ability to grow rapidly and displace the native vegetation"

Do you have any scientific proof for this remark, especially the word "displace"?

2. "Through prolific reproduction .. shade out other species"

Do you have a list of species shaded out? Again, absence of any scientific data.

3. "The leaf litter produced by Chinaberry causes the soil to become more alkaline".

Is there any quantitative report? Maybe the concrete used in construction contribute 99% of the change of PH?!

4." Mosquito repellent" does not equate "kill all mosquitoes within 10 yard of the tree"!

Lets see your scientific background, I give you an opportunity to construct an experiment showing Mosquito repellent property of a tree.

5 And for esh-ga: this post is about Chinaberry; NOT the Chinese privet.


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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

Fortunately I am not in an area where Chinaberry has become invasive yet, so I am using privet as an example of what "invasive" means. But I think you know that because I said "for example".

Chinaberry is starting to invade my metropolitan area now and hopefully will not reach where I am for several years. When it gets here, it can do battle with the current invasive trees, Tree of Heaven (Ailanthus altissima) and Mimosa (Albizia julibrissin).


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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

There is Tons of scientific proof snasxs, about how invasive plant species can displace, out compete, and shade out native species. Just search some on the web, it's easy. I'm not going to go through all of it, waste of time, because of you who have not learned about invasive plants. Read all about it by goggling "invasive species" to learn all about them. You can also search "Chinaberry invasive" or "Melia azedarach invasive" ;-)

I didn't say anything about kill all mosquitoes, what are you talking about? (you changed a lot of what I posted), I just posted about how there is not much eveidence to fully support the claim of it repelling Mosquitos, and if it turn out true it would likely only repel them a tiny bit. ;-)

Contact the University of Florida about the quantitative report Impacts:
http://aquat1.ifas.ufl.edu/node/266

Some more info:
Chinaberry is listed as a Category I species by the Florida Exotic Pest Plant Council. This means that Chinaberry is invading and disrupting natural communities in Florida. It also is reported to be invasive and disruptive in 11 other states, including Hawaii and Texas. Chinaberry seeds are readily dispersed by birds and a single tree in your yard can cause a thicket of Chinaberry trees that shade out native species in the woods around your property. If you have a Chinaberry tree on your property consider cutting it down so that birds will not disperse the seeds. Please encourage others to eliminate this invasive exotic from the landscape.

All parts of Chinaberry tree are poisonous. Eating as few as 6 berries can result in death. Birds (including mockingbirds, robins, and catbirds) that eat too many seeds have been known to become paralyzed.
http://www.floridata.com/ref/M/meli_aze.cfm

Even some more data:
http://www.invasive.org/library/FLFSNoxWeeds/chinaberry.html
http://www.gainvasives.org/weeds/chinaberry.html
http://www.evergladescisma.org/species/subinfo.cfm?sub=3049
http://www.nps.gov/plants/alien/fact/meaz1.htm
http://www.texasinvasives.org/Invasives_Database/Results/Detail.asp?Symbol=MEAZ
http://plants.ifas.ufl.edu/parks/chinaberry.html

I don't have to show any background or construct an experiment, waste of time. The point is there is not enough scientific evidence for what you said, your the one that needs scientific proof for your remarks. ok? ;-)


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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

Esh_ga and tree,

I dont think the council you referenced has insisted your quoted text. Can you find a reference from their site stating that? Lol! You did not quote from the council backed by UGA but from Floridata which is NOT an official site. The quote from Floridata could be misinformation. I hope you understand these scientists and politicians change really fast. Floridata may catch a changing phase.

It is NOT that Chinaberry has NOT become invasive yet in your area. This view is scientifically incorrect.

Chinaberry is brought to the US by a French botanist in the 1700 pretty much before Chinese privet. The plant is NOT really invasive; despite the wide-spread use as street trees by city planners throughout the US for hundreds of years.

"Chinaberry is not listed on Floridas Noxious Weed list, nor is it listed on the Federal Noxious Weed List."

Quote from http://aquat1.ifas.ufl.edu/node/266


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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

You just like ignoring the facts snasxs, you know Chinaberry is a invasive in at least some states lol. ;-) And you can't change that fact no matter what you say.

I've seen 50 too maybe 100+ Chinaberry trees all in one small area of a field and along the woods here. Tons grow all along fences rows. lol it's obviously invasive in many areas here.

U.S. Weed Information:
Melia azedarach L.
Chinaberry tree
This plant can be weedy or invasive according to the authoritative sources noted below. This plant may be known by one or more common names in different places, and some are listed above.
FLEPPC Florida Exotic Pest Plant Council. 1999. Invasive plant list (19 October 1999). Florida Exotic Pest Plant Council. Florida.
SEEPPC Southeast Exotic Pest Plant Council. 1996. Invasive exotic pest plants in Tennessee (19 October 1999). Research Committee of the Tennessee Exotic Pest Plant Council. Tennessee.
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=MEAZ

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It is not listed as a Noxious Weed in Florida, but it is A Category II invasive in Florida which means it has the potential to becomes the worst of the worst a category I, yep it's not a Federal invasive (yet a least, could become a Federal invasive in the long term with the help of persons like you). lol ;-)

FLoridata (below paragraph) was correct (which they usually are) in saying it was a Catagory I there page was updated in 4/26/04 So they used the 2003 list. It was a Cat I in 2003 but was bumped to a II in 2003 and as remaind there in 2007.
http://www.fleppc.org/list/list.htm
So again Chinaberry has the potential to becomes the worst of the worst a category I again.

Chinaberry is listed as a Category I species by the Florida Exotic Pest Plant Council. This means that Chinaberry is invading and disrupting natural communities in Florida. It also is reported to be invasive and disruptive in 11 other states, including Hawaii and Texas. Chinaberry seeds are readily dispersed by birds and a single tree in your yard can cause a thicket of Chinaberry trees that shade out native species in the woods around your property. If you have a Chinaberry tree on your property consider cutting it down so that birds will not disperse the seeds. Please encourage others to eliminate this invasive exotic from the landscape. All parts of Chinaberry tree are poisonous. Eating as few as 6 berries can result in death. Birds (including mockingbirds, robins, and catbirds) that eat too many seeds have been known to become paralyzed.
http://www.floridata.com/ref/M/meli_aze.cfm

This was correct it may have shown Noxious type of habits in 2003 but was eradicated from areas in FL bumping it to Cat II in 2005, not totally sure.
Invasive and Noxious Weeds of Florida: It shows Chinaberry
http://plants.usda.gov/java/invasiveOne?pubID=FLEPPC

Invasive and Noxious Weeds of Tennessee: It shows Chinaberry
http://plants.usda.gov/java/invasiveOne?pubID=SEEPPC

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Chinaberry:
Rounded Invasive Species Impact Rank: Medium
I-Rank Reasons Summary: Melia azedarach used to be widely planted for ornamental or for harvest for its medicinal properties. It has since escaped and naturalized which has caused at least one state (FL) to ban it, although it is still sold elsewhere in the US. It appears most often on disturbed soils, however it can invaded floodplain and marsh communities, and can crowd out native species.
http://www.natureserve.org/explorer/servlet/NatureServe?sourceTemplate=tabular_report.wmt&loadTemplate=species_RptComprehensive.wmt&selectedReport=RptComprehensive.wmt&summaryView=tabular_report.wmt&elKey=152741&paging=home&save=true&startIndex=1&nextStartIndex=1&reset=false&offPageSelectedElKey=152741&offPageSelectedElType=species&offPageYesNo=true&post_processes=&radiobutton=radiobutton&selectedIndexes=152741

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Invasives are like a slow chain reaction at first that increases speed many times over as they become more and more established and widespread.

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Chinaberry being poisonous (to humans and animals), invasive, spindly, I don't think it's a good yard tree at all IMO.
So you have to admit Chinnaberry can be weedy, and invasive, and can be dangerous to humans and animals by all the poisonous parts) p. ;-)
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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

fledgeling_,
I agree the China's forest are very diverse, and there being moist pathways from tropical forest to temperate are's probable helps in introduce new species/families of plants. The temperate area's of North America are on the same landmass as tropical area's, however there are more dessert area's blocking the migration. As far as "relic" groups and species, the answer to that is probable glaciation. North America, and Europe were mostly covered in glaciers a few thousand years ago, and area's not covered had radically different climates, than they do now. Much of China may very well have escaped similar effect, or had pockets for survival. The ginkgo for example was found in a mountain range in SE China. As the climate changed they could have migrated up and down in elevation to stay in a favorable zone. In addition the ginkgo is adapted to survive much colder temps than is would likely see in the same area as it was found. So this also supports the island of survival. Much of what has been introduced originates from the mountains, which could partly be due to the same effect. However it is also the area's least cultivated/populated. Lastly, the Franklin tree (Franklinia) is an apparent case of surviving remnant from the ice ages of North America. Was found in one small area of Georgia along a river, and nowhere else in climate USDA zone 8. However it seems to be much happier ti climate USDA zone 5 or 6. It was also apparently lost in the wild shortly after its discovery. Very interesting story if you care to research it, and very nice little tree at that, but can be on the sensitive side.


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RE: [images] Beautiful and fragrant - Chinaberry trees.

  • Posted by bboy z8 WA USA (My Page) on
    Thu, Oct 2, 08 at 14:03

Prone to water molds. It dying out in the wild due to being driven into to hot an area (with too many water molds) by glaciation seems plausible. Out here on the Pacific shoreline California has multiple trees that are clinging to the coast because the inland climate is now too hot.

In cultivation here in western WA (and in other cool summer climates) the Franklin tree has some trouble flowering, apparently wanting a hotter growing season.


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Clarification

  • Posted by bboy z8 WA USA (My Page) on
    Thu, Oct 2, 08 at 14:04

The trees in California are wild populations of other species of trees.


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