what are your goals UNDER the tree ...

if you plant a maple.. eventually.. 20.. 30.. years down the line.. you will NOT be able to garden under it at will ... it can be done ... it will just get harder and harder .. with root competition ...

otherwise.. as a hosta gardener ... i tend to suggest any of the other dozens of oaks available ...

ken

Hi ken, thanks for the response.

The trees will be in my front yard and really just be there to look beautiful and one will shade the front of my home too. No planting planned but you never know, it wouldn't stop me from getting something if it was "ungardenable" under it! :)

The main thing I'm concerned about (after reading so many sources of info and one or two specific threads here) is planting a new tree in the vicinity of the Bradford Pear I will likely be felling due to old age/uglyness. Perhaps it was you that was against it or maybe for it but there was a thread where someone wanted to plant a tree directly ontop of a tree that was cut down two years prior. I hadn't though about the old trees roots causing an issue but now I'm not sure. The tree to be chopped is a ~35' Bradford Pear that's 12'-14' in trunk diameter. It's ~25 years old and getting ratty plus the nail in the coffin for me is the fire blight that's making it that much more haggard in appearance.

I wish I could be more original or exciting but after researching different trees I think the autumn blaze maple would be a great tree to plant in one or both spots I have. One thing I'm not sure on pertains to its production/lack of production of seeds/whirlybirds most sources say that since its a lab created var they don't have any but one or two sites say they do. What's the true word on this?

bsmith, I wouldn't worry much about the whirly bird samaras unless you plan on sitting in an easy chair under it and leaving your coffee uncovered for hours.

Really any tree has SOME kind of seed and the samaras come and go as quick as anything.

To be exciting you could go with a Dawn Redwood (Metasequoia). They are pretty polite when limbed up, have good fall color, and quickly decomposing foliage after it falls. Their flowers and acorns are small so they won't be much of a pain.

Nyssa sylvatica (black gum) is a favorite of mine and very polite but I have had difficulty transplanting them.

.......

Sugar maples are slower growing but should be considered.

........

No ash, see EAB

........

I would think ten feet from a dead Bradford would be plenty. You might find a root or two but can they really have that much wood in the ground?

Something I noticed, I had a big ash stump ground out the other year, there is a large "weird" woody area in the yard where I wouldn't expect anything to grow. On the other side of the yard a few feet from where I left a trunk to rot/look cool I am planting pumpkins and gardening. Sure it will rot eventually just like all the stumps near all them other trees in the forest are rotting.

I would think an expert with a chainsaw could get a stupid Bradford stump near flush with the soil. Over a few hours I did similar to a fireblight having apple tree with a sawzall several years back.

Dawn Redwood:

Here is a link that might be useful: Other thread with more pics

forget about roots.. rotting roots.. etc ...

just plant a new tree far enough away from the BPear ... so that when 'it go boom.. me fall down' .. it wont fall on your new tree ... and when you are ready.. make it fall down...

you are going way to esoteric on peripheral issues..

get out chainsaw ... start such ... clean up mess ... dig hole.. plant new tree ..

whats next.. worry about a meteor falling on your new tree???

i hope this clarifies you new tree thought processes ... lol

and if you have no goal of gardening under a tree.. and are sure about that.. then your next choice is fall color ... which brings you squarely into maple territory ... among a few others ...

the dawn redwood is deciduous.. and glorious.. but do keep in mind .. it is nudie part of the year ...

ken

ps: sometimes too much information is worse that too little.. especially when it leads to paralyzing the decision process ... IMHO.. one of the biggest failures of the WWWeb ....

Here is a link that might be useful: link

bsmith,
FWIW, I certainly like the Autumn Blaze. There are reasons that is is so popular. However, I'm going to suggest and alternative. Look into Autumn Fantasy Maple. Compared to Autumn Blaze the leaves are larger, the tree is more spreading, has a darker more brick red fall color, buds out 7-10 days later, is not nearly as common, seems more drought resistant, and actually grows faster. It also seems to be less likely to have broken branches. We have one of each, and I certainly very much like them both, but I have to say I like the AF a bit better. It is also a Red/Silver maple hybrid. But since is isn't as common, it's a harder to find, but I would think you would not have too much trouble in the St Louis area.

If you are planting two trees, I would not plant two of the same. Perhaps for a second tree you could choose an elm, or soil permitting, Scarlet Oak, Kentucky Coffee Tree, Yellowwood. Much depends on preferences.

Arktrees

Do we know where you live or did I miss that?

Paperbark maple Acer griseum is a standout choice where it will grow. I will also throw in Sycamore (a personal fav). Great recommendations above as long as hardiness is not an issue. Whatever you select, I would recommend potted smaller stock around a 5 gallon container or smaller for quick establishment and faster growth initially.

John

I am an idiot. Your location is in the title. Herp derp

Both of my suggestions are hardy in St. Louis...

John

Absolutely, I'm going to break out my Stihl and cut the pear down. Not sure how much I can grind (if any) down but I'm certian ill be able to get the stump even with the grass.

I'm just over planning/thinking everything because of the situation with my wedding pin oak. Here's a bit more info on that. It was given to us in sept 06 and it was maybe 2'-3'. I planted it in oct of 06 in a spot of my previous back yard that didn't get a lot of water from lawn sprinkling. Plus I didn't (and am now just starting to learn a bit) know jack about properly planting a tree. I figured, hell it's an oak, they grow crazy around here just plant it. So for three years it grew a bit but was not flourishing. Then in July of 09 we moved and I transplanted it to my current house in the front yard. I'm still not sure if its planted 100% correct and I never put any mulch around it. Which I should have for sure.

So this brings us to the present. I have been telling my wife for months I want to cut down the pear. But she doesn't think it looks as bad as I do but also she doesn't know what fire blight is all about either. So tomorrow I have an arborist coming over to look at my pin oak and while he's there get him to tell me I need to get rid of the pear. That will make it easier for my wife to believe that it really needs to go. She thinks I just want to cut down a biggish tree with my new saw and put a nice new tree up!

I don't know anything about redwoods but ill check into them for sure. If they are bare 1/2 the year that may be something I couldn't deal with though.

Ill look into the autumn fantasy. It sounds like a blaze but even better!

I love sycamores. They grow giant near my house down by the meremec river, they have to be 120+ feet tall and their trunks are easily 10' in diameter. They are just a bit sparse in foliage though.

Also, it seems that the dawn redwood is a conifer which I'm not a big fan of. Conifers and their needles just rub me the wrong way. I like the transition from bare tree to lavishly leaved beauty throughout the seasons. Thanks for the suggestion though!

Looks like the Autumn fantasy is a bit smaller (max size) than the blaze. I read quite a few threads about them and just like any other tree, YMMV.

If anyone in my zone/conditions has grown/experience with the blaze and fantasy and could tell me their stories that would be very helpful.

Now I have found a few places online that sell the blaze already. They are 1" diam 5'-7'tall trees and are about $70/per shipped. I have a local nurseries that have 2"/2.5"-3" 12'-14'/12'-15' trees for about three times as much. What is the best buy and for what reasons?

You know a dawn redwood is no different than a deciduous tree per say right? Even though a conifer (because it cones) it buds out, gets fall color and drops its SOFT needles in autumn.

I could consider myself a tree nut and a DR is a must have if you have the space

If you go Sycamore, consider Platanus � acerifolia 'Morton Circle'. Another must have in my book. Of course I'm biased since I have one.

Every yard should also have at least one maple. If not you shouldn't be allowed to grow plants.

It still has needles though. Leaves are more my style.

bsmith,
Do what you like. But I did want to show you these from a personal experience.

John, this is for you as well since I was talking to you about this tree today.

First photo is our Autumn Fantasy shortly after being planted in 2008. Probable around 1" caliper and 7-8' tall.

{{gwi:444947}}

This is the exact same tree October 2011 in peak fall coloration. It was about 18' tall at this point, with a measured caliper of 5.37" 6" above ground level.

{{gwi:444949}}

That is GLORIOUS!

To each their own. Metasequoia is a love / hate tree. Not everyone likes maroon cars either.

Tulip tree? Liriodendron tulipifera or something like that? Big, the most under rated flowers in nature. The right one can have good fall.color.

Here is a link that might be useful: university site

Thanks for the pics AR. I just want a tree that is different then all the others in my area/neighborhood. There are a billion Bradford pears around here and all though I do think they are pretty I just dont want to mess with them anymore. There is a good number of very health Pin Oaks in my subdivision and on my street as well. My home is ~20 years old with some of the Oaks being a bit older then that so they are getting tallish and starting to fill out and expand their trunks. There is a subdivision down the street from mine thats about 5-7 years older than my subdivision and it is called Remington Oaks. Lining the entrance street of Remington there are 60+' Pin Oaks and again, although they are beautiful I'm just trying to do something slightly different.

The city I live in (Fenton, MO a suburb of St.Louis) really only started growing and becoming an upper middle class town about 20-30 years ago. Some of the older (40-50 year old) homes have Maples that were planted by the builders and thats about it. There are also some massive Oaks near the really old houses (70+ years old) that were here before the town was even founded. Those are gorgeous but I dont have that long!

My neighbors a couple of houses down have a Tulip tree. It's about 10 years old and is nothing I would say is that impressive, yet. I know its still a juvenile and thin in comparison to what a fully developed tree exhibits too. I have never really noticed the flowers, perhaps it was planted poorly or our soil just isn't the best for it.

It looks like the Autumn Fantasy is a bit smaller height wise when full grown compared to the Autumn Blaze. Can anyone confirm this? Also from what I have read on the AF they have a more globe like shape compared to the AB with its oval shape. Any comments on that? I have read people saying that the AB fills out nicely when it matures and the less globe like shape is during its younger years.

I'm really trying to take what I read from people experiences with a grain of salt because I have to believe that their soil/weather/care for the tree has quite a bit to do with the way their Maples are growing. I'm also under the impression that even if I were to purchase two AB/AF from the same source, they could grow differently and have their own specific trait differences that may be good or bad too.

I'm still waiting to find something/be told something that seals the deal on a certain tree...

bsmith,
Not trying to sale you on any, just give you relevant info. The globe shape of the AF, is what I was referring to when I said it was more spreading. I consider that a positive, as you get "effective" shade sooner, and that was very important to us. Which is exactly what we got. After 4 years, it is approximately 21-22', and is beginning to shade the patios nicely. Also understand that I fertilized this tree in spring before leaf out to optimize growth. I knwo of others nearby that were planted at basically the same time that are much much much smaller, that were not fertilized in our abused nutrient poor soil. Check the link below to Sooner Plant Farm. At that link they have a picture of the parent tree from which AF originated. I know this, because it appears to be the very same picture that is in the patent application for AF. The parent tree originates in central Indiana, and had survived many ice storms without damage.

For AB, IMHO, most that you now find are no longer the TRUE AB described the patent application. That would certainly account for the variable seen in individual trees. I still see some pl;anted that are very uniform in growth habit, but these are typically higher end plants from more expensive sources. I agree they do fill out as they reach max reported size, but I just prefer the less upright oval shape.

Also for whatever you choose, both of the above are certainly larger than Bradford Pear, but more than that, realize, that you are unlikely to the the max size tree except for a few of the very fastest growing trees. Most trees to get anywhere near their stated sizes require 50+ years.

Also, if you truely want less common, several of the other suggestions are better. Wildfire Blackgum, Yellowwood, Kentucky Coffee Tree, Cherokee Sweetgum, Lacebark Elms, and various large deciduous Magnolia's come to mind.

Arktrees

Here is a link that might be useful: Autumn Fantasy

I would be willing to spend the $ to ensure that I got a true AB. The two local nurseries wanted $140 and $180 for 12'-15' trees not that expensive to me for a tree of that size but I have no idea what I'm talking about concerning this subject.

I looked up all the trees you suggested and it seems they all have issues except the Cherokee. The wildfire like acidic soil which I have the opposite, the yellow wood seems to be all but available a slow grower and though rare which is a plus seems, meeh, the coffee tree is poisonous, and the elm is on many states invasive lists.

The arborist should be here shortly and will hopefully give me some info to digest.

Thanks again for the suggestions and keep them coming!

Ok, I mention soil as a concern, and you are just now saying you have alkaline soil, you never really talked about growth rate (btw Yellowwood I have seen about 2'/yr as the norm), I also asked about your preferences..... what else are you not telling us?

I'm done with the guessing game.

Arktrees

I'm so confused. You want something that isn't all that common that everyone doesn't have but Autumn Blaze Maple is one of the MOST over planted trees, especially throughout the Midwest.

Can you hone in on what leaf texture and fall color you want? That should really narrow it down. Plus what is the soil type and moisture like? That will narrow it down even more.

I apologize if those facts are already in this post.

Hackberry perhaps? It gets big, is at least somewhat out of the ordinary, tolerates alkalinity and dryness......what else need be said?

+oM

I never said I had to have an uncommon tree, only that if a suggestion were uncommon even better. As far as my soil having a higher pH I figured it was just pretty common (to people that k ew a lot about tree/this sort of thing) knowledge that my area has soil in that above nutral/alkaline range.

Sorry that your suggestions don't fit my needs AK but don't get upset about it.

I can see why these red/silver maple hybrids are as popular as they are. They just seem to shine in all areas.

I also found out from the arborist yesterday that my neighbors across the street have a sugar maple and text to them the other neighbors have a red maple. Those trees are about 8-10 years old ate dense as can be and are ~25' tall.

I also cut all the grass away from my pin oak, put done ironite and bone meal covered by humus&manure mixture then put a nice layer of mulch over it. Hopefully the oak will appreciate the nutrients and the mulches ability to lower the pH.

arktrees, impressed by the AF maple. Silver maple-like leaves & Red's fall color. Does it suffer in Arkansas heat?

My little selected silver maple seedling (from under an excellent parent tree) planted 8 yrs ago in stream-side gray muck finally got truly established & grew 5+ ft this yr.

beng,
The AF does not seem to be bothered in the least. I say that, but I am also in the hilly northwest corner of the state, and the climate is milder than much of the rest of the state. I have watered it and my other trees during the last couple of growing seasons, as I have wanted to reducer their stress and maximize growth so as to get shade ASAP. Just the same, the last couple of years have been far far from mild. So while at no time has it shown any stress, it has gotten water when needed as well. I have planted one at a friends house in the Arkansas River Valley, which is hotter and drier in summer, but it hasn't been there long enough for me to make a good judgement yet. It has grown as much as 4.5' in one season. I have read where some have planted these in south Texas, and the trees didn't have problems, though they did not have much in the way of fall color either. At least that was what I read.

As I have stated before, we have both Autumn Fantasy and Autumn Blaze. Of the two, I like the Autumn Fantasy a bit better due to the faster growth, more spreading nature, slightly less dense shade, and larger leaves. Also that there aren't a million and 18 oif them around appeals to me. It also seems to be more drought resistant, but that is just a gut feeling at this time.

Arktrees

Okay, so I'm set for for an Autumn Blaze and one other tree.

Talking with my mom just now she suggested a Tri-color Beech. I looked them up up briefly and they look very pretty. They also seem to be tolerant of soil that ranges from Acidic to Alkaline.

What does anyone know about the Beech?

If it is a good choice then I would plan to put the Beech in the front yard (between the sidewalk and street) near where the Pear tree was and then put the Maple on the front/side yard (between the sidewalk and the street.

Thoughts?

The beech is a finicky fella. If grown in the right spot it looks GREAT in the spring, good early summer and ragged after July. MOBOT, the park off Mexico Road just east of Mid Rivers and one other park in St Charles all have them. A good amount of shade seems to be preferred.

Other less fancy beech are out there which are less picky. If you have enough room where you can have seasonal stars go for a tri-color. In the spring they are among the most showy trees I have seen.

There are small tree versions of serviceberry. I grabbed one from Forrest Keeling this spring and it survived the drought and heat nicely for a new transplant.

Do you know when the best time to plant one is? It seems like the spring is when they do best/what is suggested.

If no one chimes in that actually knows I will hazard to guess since the European Beech is plenty cold hardy later this month or so would be ideal.

My pet theory is:

fully cold hardy trees should be planted in fall when possible since winter does not stress them much.

marginally cold hardy trees like japanese maples and crepe myrtles may do better with early spring planting since they suffer winter die back even when established.
I urge you to see the local one Tri-colors in person before making a decision. The internet is an excellent place for prime spring pics. Wonder if anyone has an August picture. This fella is such an attention getter in the spring I can understand planting it.

Here is a link that might be useful: MOBOT Page

So you think that due to it looking rather ragged in the summer months it may not be a good choice?

From what I have read (and the insistence of Ken here on the site in other threads) it seems as if watering/moisture levels are the main player in the plant looking good/terrible in the hotter months. So as long as I can keep it hydrated it should stay looking decent in the summer. Any comment on that one?

Another suggestion: Aesculus x carnea 'Ft. McNair'

I guarantee no one on your block has one of these! I was lucky enough to find a couple fairly large ones in full bloom in a botanical garden in Maine earlier this year. If you are really interested, I can find the pics on the camera and post them. When/if you look this tree up on a google search, the pics do not even come close to doing the tree justice IMO.

John

Here is a link that might be useful: Flower picture

Bsmith, just be aware of what the tri-colors at the Missouri Botanical Garden, the St Peters Rec Plex and I think its called McNair Park in St Charles look like now and in August thats all. I figure them places give as good of care as I am likely to be able.

Notice Ken lives a bit north of us as well. As japanese maples do better here perhaps trees which do not deal with summer well look better for him. I know my crepe myrtle might hate our winters bjt that southern tree was not bothered by what was a terrible summer here.

No offense intended. I am aware and I tried one! Tri-colors are attention getters.

This is one if the MOBOT trees in oct of 2010. It is in a pretty sheltered location.

Once again, notice in the link below I planted one. I just feel it is dishonest of nurseries not to post four pictures of their trees, one from each season. And I am long winded. Wanna talk politics? ;)

Here is a link that might be useful: previous discussion

J0nd03- that ft.mcnair is a beautiful tree. Ill have to see what the specs are on it as far as tolerances/preferences.

Tornado- no offense taken at all, I'm quite long winded myself (I am a car salesman!) and I love taking politics but unfortunately from what I have learned (perhaps its the area we live in?) most discussions about politics/govt matters turn into a pissing contest/yelling match because when someone has a differeing view than I yet cannot support their claims/reasons for their beliefs they get defensive and resort to un civilized behavior. I think it's hilarious but sure you have experenced it as well! ;)

I really appreciate the info your giving me. From what I have read/picked up from folks (a good friend of mine is a horticulture major/landscape business owner) these beech trees will maintain their vibrant foliage as long as they are kept hydrated. I'm site the tree in your pics gets pruned/pest control done professionally and regularly but I'm not sure about the watering part too much?

Kind if rehashing this thread.

Can anyone speak to how a scarlet oak would fair in my area?