|
| Okay, I've spent so much time, including many threads on here, thinking about a tree for my front yard. The space is the approximately 18' between my front sidewalk and my neighbors property line. It is a fairly small city-lot, but not a super skinny row house or anything. It is a western exposure that gets hot afternoon sun.
I like the crabapples and similar, but they don't get quite tall enough. I would like the tree to eventually provide a bit of shade against that hot western sun. The tree that is the perfect shape is the cleveland pear at the local nursery. 30' high and 15' wide would be absolutely perfect. But everyone on here hates pears. What is an alternative tree that that will grow to be about 30' x 15' -- taller than wide yet not giant like the sycamore in my back yard. see picture link below. the property line is at an angle so it is a bit hard to get a sense of it. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Front of house
Follow-Up Postings:
|
- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Tue, Oct 4, 11 at 12:46
| But everyone on here hates pears. ==>>> thats the understatement of the year ... lol ... i would go with redbud .. nice purple early flowers.. and gorgeous heart shaped leaves all summer ... grows pretty fast.. so i would not go above 4 or 5 feet on a transplant.. should be rather cheap ... the foo foo variegated ones are not as fast growing .... check out the link for many pix it is the earliest blooming tree in my garden.. and brings much joy when it seems to flower.. just after snow melt ... though it will take a recent planting some time to get to the flowering stage ... it might outgrow the spot in 20 to 25 years ... ken |
Here is a link that might be useful: link
|
- Posted by toronado3800 Z6 St. Louis (My Page) on Tue, Oct 4, 11 at 14:23
| Yeah, my ideas are the generic "redbud, dogwood, Japanes maple" assuming the site drains reasonably well. For dogwood i notice cornus kousa is gaining popularity over the native cornus florida which apparently struggles places besides my yard. |
|
- Posted by civ_IV_fan none (My Page) on Tue, Oct 4, 11 at 14:26
| Ken - Thanks! The nursery also has eastern redbuds, and some decent looking ones. My concerns - the spot gets zero morning sun and 100% hot afternoon sun with its western exposure. I understood that the redbud likes a semi-shaded environment with morning sun (woodland edge kind of thing). Also, redbuds seem to be wide and short. Could I train it to be taller and less wide? |
|
- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Tue, Oct 4, 11 at 16:33
| nope.. you gots it bass ackwards ... mine are in full blistering sun .. in mineral sand.. all day long ... they are shade TOLERANT ... and can cope in shade ... and are a well known understory tree ... so they can tolerate shade of a high forest canopy .. but it does not equate that that means they require that.. or cant cope with sun ... you are seeming to think its an either/or proposition ... its not ... no plant is really all shade .. e.g. hosta ... can be grown in full sun ... but they will look like heck by mid summer.. but they will grow faster and bigger in full sun.. given enough water ... put them in too much dark shade ... and they will wither away ... its a TOLERANCE thing ... i will repeat ... any bigger than a 4 footer ... is a waste of money .. and will be harder on getting the tree 'established' ... unless they want to sell you a 6 footer.. at the 4 footer price.. just to get rid of it for winter ... over the years.. just keep trimming the branches upwards ... for height ... i dont know how you make a tree wider ... a redbud will get wider than your house .. so i dont know what your plan might be ... and NEVER top a tree to keep it shorter ... my daughter wants me outside.. i will post you some pix tomorrow.. or later.. or just forget.. lol ... ken |
|
| Why don't you just get an oval or columnar tree? Do you have any wants or requirements? There are so so many options. No tree will stop at 30 x 15 so the best you can do is get a slower grower and select for habit as I mentioned above. When young, eastern redbud is more of an upright tree but then starts to get wider...in fact as wide or wider than tall. Ken is right on the sun. I have my redbud in morning shade and all day sun in the afternoon (western exposure). Its looks happy to me. People (because dumb $ss nurseries) always focus on light requirments when in reality you need to be concerned about hardiness, soil type and drainage (among other things). People in the lower Midwest or south may have a different opinion. A Princeton Sentry Ginkgo would be quite nice...but again depends on your wants. If you don't like yellow fall color or no flowers you're out of luck on that one. I tend to favor season long character over flowers or even fall color over flowers. |
|
- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Tue, Oct 4, 11 at 19:42
| they want to shade the house and porch.. columnar will not work .. ken |
|
| 15' wide won't work then...one or the other! |
|
| This is a nice list of columnar and fastigiate trees. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Morton Arb Suggestions
|
- Posted by civ_IV_fan 6a (My Page) on Wed, Oct 5, 11 at 8:28
| thanks everyone. you all got me to thinking. i made a short list - any thoughts? american smoketree now the trick is local availability. |
|
- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Wed, Oct 5, 11 at 9:04
| planted 4/2000 .... from a bare root 6 footer ... pix from may 2 ... usual bloom time ken
|
|
| Mexican Plum grow to about 30' high, up to 20' wide. It puts on a display of white flowers and has some color on fall foliage and is drought tolerant. Mine has grown at 2' for a couple of years, this year will be more like a foot with the drought. I have pasted a link. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Mexican Plum - Arbor Day Info
|
| I'm partial to Princeton Sentry Ginkgo. Not sure if the others are really a good fit. Cross Canada Red Chokecherry off the list. Perhaps you should go looking and then report back with what is available. |
|
- Posted by civ_IV_fan none (My Page) on Wed, Oct 5, 11 at 13:42
| ken - your redbud is beautiful. my options are a more mature one for a nursery for about $90 or an immature one from lowe's for like $15. i am really intrigued by the ginkgo. i am being obsessive enough to do some quick graphic simulations of what they might look like in my yard. see the link below. it was hard to get the scale right, any thoughts on that appreciated. the red is redbud, and the two yellows are gingkos - one represents the autumn sun and the other princeton sentry |
Here is a link that might be useful: Front yard after-tree mockups
|
| Good luck on your pick. I just so happen to be considering the Princeton Sentry ginkgo for a tight space myself. I did want to throw in a couple of quick points on the redbud. First, they can start to look bad in afternoon sun when temperatures are fairly high (maybe 90 degrees or hotter) for an extended period in the summer. This may not be an issue where you are, but it is here in Alabama. I've seen many exposed redbuds start looking pretty ragged come August. Secondly, I would support some others here that say to stick with the small, cheap starter tree. I planted a 6-inch bare root "stick" a few years back and had an 8-foot tall tree in about two growing seasons. Again, it was Alabama, so yours probably won't be quite so aggressive. |
|
| Here is a 60 year old speciman in the Milwaukee area. Imagine how that thing will light up in fall! The other one is one that I just planted this spring...it hadn't fully leafed out when I took the pic. Its about 18' off the house.
|
|
- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Wed, Oct 5, 11 at 17:00
| i wouldnt spend more than 15 bucks ... BTW... redbuds can drop a lot of seed ... i roundup the beds.. so its not a big deal for me ... the lollipop ginko is too big.. but there is that scale issue you mention .... in my z5 MI.. ginkgo is REEEAAALLL SSSLLLOOOOWWWWW .... dont know where the property line is.. but they all seem close the the walkway to the porch ... is that requisite?? 8 weeks near 100 with drought in z5 Adrian MI on sand soil ... just south of ann arbor.. no leaf scorch on 'est'd' redbud ... ken |
|
- Posted by civ_IV_fan 6a (My Page) on Wed, Oct 5, 11 at 19:33
| Ken - I'm just not so good with the mockups. It will actually be planted closer to the porch. Like perhaps 8 feet in front of the porch, centered at about the left side of the front left window of the house. I am a little concerned about the tree framing the house wrong. Also notice the too-close planted dogwood on the left side of the house. I have found the ginkgo, redbuds, moonglow and bracken brown magnolias, and also an autumn brilliance serviceberry locally. Any thoughts on the serviceberry? I want a tree, not a bush. |
|
| It can sucker, it is finicky, it is susceptible to many diseases and insects. But it is gorgeous when its happy. Ken why are you pushing a large leaf Redbud in front of that house....not the right tree!lol! Redbud are for naturalized areas. Kind of like that you have for its placement. You need a smaller leaf tree that is stately and shapely. The house will likely fall apart before the tree gets too big. 30 year width on Princeton Sentry is about 15'. |
|
| Would a paperbark maple work in your space & climate? Might need supplemental watering, but still... I'm not sure how wide a canopy spread they have, though. Richard. |
|
| FWIW, Here in Northwest Arkansas, we have our Paperbark in full sun, and it has been VERY happy. Same with Acer triflorum. But I do suppliment water, as I want them to grow fast as possible at this time, and it is working. Redbuds here are also very happy in full sun, and are often planted in landscape islands of parking lots as well. If they can take the landscape islands, then they can handle your yard. Another option would be Chalk Maple Acer luecoderme. Problem with it is that it seriously under-utilized, and it's pretty much impossible to find significant sized trees. They can grow fairly quickly though if happy enough. I have two second year seedlings in pots that added 2+ feet this year. Arktrees |
|
- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Thu, Oct 6, 11 at 9:34
| Ken why are you pushing a large leaf Redbud in front of that house....not the right tree! ===>> i agree ... if he is planting it 8 feet from the house .... it would need to be about 20 feet .... unless one of the variegated leaf ones would stay smaller.. i dont have any experience with those ... why am i pushing it.. BECAUSE I HAVE PIX OF MINE ... lol ... and its the only tree in my yard that remains somewhat restricted in size ... that actually gets large enough to give shade ... its extremely hard.. to 'fit' a tree in there ... based on footprint.. yet shade the house ... OP .. for a very slow growing .. supreme tree ... that will never give you shade .. research: Acer pseudoplatanus 'Eskimo Sunset' leaf front is variegated.. and the backs are a maroon red ... but it will be pricey ... if interested.. contact a high end nursery .... and see if one can be ordered in for spring delivery ... odds are.. you arent going to be 'finding' this without ordering it ... i paid 75 bucks for a 2 footer 7 years back [well.. it was 3 feet.. and then when i planted it .. it was only 2.. lol]... this is the prime locale of your miniscule front yard.. investing in a statement plant is worthwhile ... i have pix of this one too.. lol ... check out below ... also consider a tricolor beech .. though many will complain of what it looks like in august.. the pink tissue fades to a parchment color.. and in hot summers burns right off ... ken ignore the dwarf.. he infests my whole garden .. he is worse than a woodchuck.. lol ...
|
Here is a link that might be useful: link
|
- Posted by civ_IV_fan 6a (My Page) on Thu, Oct 6, 11 at 10:20
| Ken - The 8 foot thing was just a guess. I was thinking with a 15 foot crown, the would be 8 feet either way. I can definitely move it a more appropriate distance from the house...what might that be? |
|
| Have a friend down here who has planted eastern Redbuds on the south side of his house. The tallest is about 20' currently and a nice little tree, hadn't realized that til then that they actually made tree size. We planted an area with 400 trees for the US government down here that went out of warranty in May 2011. So far an estimated 200 trees have died with the heat and the drought of this summer. The one species that we have not lost a single tree was the eastern Redbud. |
|
| CIV, in a very similar setting to yours I have a young Pterostyrax that performs wonderfully. It's got nice branch structure, big leaves that give good shade, and is just flat-out pretty all year. No fall colour of note, but the leaves stay on late and then fall fast. Would this, or a Styrax obassia, be hardy for you? The other tree in my front yard, like yours a postage stamp, is a Heptacodium. I thought I was planting a shrub, but I kept limbing it up and suddenly it was a tree. It's taken many years, is now a good size, and is a bee magnet, wonderful to watch from the upper story window. Drawback is that it's messy; I have to clean little flower petals and bracts up beneath it so the sidewalk doesn't get too slippery. Karin L |
|
- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Thu, Oct 6, 11 at 12:33
| i had a very old redbud planted by the original owner .... that petered out at about 25 years [which is short lived for a tree] ... and its trunk was about 18 inches diameter ... and it was probably no more than 20 feet tall .... but 20 - 25 feet wide ... thats my only experience with its potential ... thinking outside the box ... have you ever considered a outdoor window shade .. mounted on the porch .. on the neighbor side.. which i presume is sunset side ... which you could just pull up and down when you want to sit out there??? being that it is mounted under the roof.. it might only last a couple hundred years.. check out the link ... once you solve that problem ... then your tree choice expands exponentially ... as i said.. anything that is going to provide the shade you want... is going to simply be too big for what little planting space you have ... did you not see the pix??? ken |
Here is a link that might be useful: link
|
| If you can find em' and you have decent soil moisture, I like the Paperback Maple and Acer triflorum suggestions. Probably the Paperback maple much more so. Its my favorite little tree. Oh did I say its my favorite little tree? Here is the one I transplanted last fall (hence the dwarf leaves). They are quite variable in habit/branching...the one I have is more "squat" and branched low. Perfect for off the corner of my house. There is a beautiful speciman in Janesville, WI for $75...perhaps there is a WI lurker that sees this message.
The Tricolor beech is always a favorite of mine too. Its vibrance wears off so it looks quite dark starting in late summer. Remains much much lighter in shaded conditions though. |
|
| I actually have some photos, I just realized, though they are taken from the porch so are into the canopies, not capturing the full tree profile from the ground. Both were taken in September. Pterostyrax, circa 4 years old: Heptacodium, circa 12 years old: My neighbour has a forest pansy redbud and though I was jealous when she got it, in the intervening years I have come to regard it with indifference. I think you have to know what you like in a tree, especially when you are seeing them up close. The redbud to me is somewhat sterile, and stagnant. It doesn't move a lot with the wind, the flowers are meh (maybe this one isn't situated well), there is no insect or wildlife interaction, and it has kind of a "designer plant" vibe to me - maybe that would not be the case with species varieties. I also cannot abide trees that have 4 days of flower interest and then nothing - our street tree is a flowering cherry that I could say goodbye to without regret tomorrow. For up close tree-planting, you have to consider things like bark, foliage form, foliage movement, fragrance, the development and emergence of buds and seeds... all things that you will be looking at every day. I find that these two trees are holding my interest, and in the case of the heptacodium increasing it, every year. Your needs, and thus your trees, will be different, of course. That said, the paperbaRk maple that Whaas has suggested is also a good option, and maybe easier to get and hardy. By the way, the other thing you have to come to terms with on a small lot is rapid tree turnover. Like, maybe 20-30 years, if that. We've been here nearly 20 years, and I am already taking out shrubs and conifers that I planted early on, and I suspect even the heptacodium will have to come down within 10 years. If that side yard is yours then you have more space than I do, but other than that your house and yard are uncannily like mine (straight walk to centre door, porch with two windows; only diff is I have a peaked roof where you have the dormer). Karin L |
|
| I sure love Seven Son Flower as well! This one was a bit stressed as a "newer" transplant that I fell behind in watering, but how can you not love the White Flowers in August and the red bracts in September?
And yet another one I'd recommend is Aesculus x 'Homestead'. This one might be tough to find but it has the ut most superior foilage of any Aesculus. Since it hangs on longer than most Aesculus (and stays scortch and fungus free) it develops nice orange fall color. I damged a branch to the right hence the big gap there.
|
|
| Here is an attempt to post a picture of my house and yard. As you can see, it's tricky! A straight shot shows nothing but greenery, since there are two or three really big shrubs and the street tree involved. Also, I've done black and white because the house is a rather distinctive colour and I'm a bit shy about posting it. If you go straight up from the front bumper of the black truck, you see the canopy of the Pterostyrax. Hmm, I see the neighbour's pink Buddleia, right at the house corner, is the same height! From this angle the Heptacodium canopy is directly in front of the top triangle of the house. It is actually planted beside the central gate and grows mostly to the east (left) side due to competition with the street tree. When I come home on a hot day in summer, the phrase that always runs through my mind is "shady glade." It is not just shaded, but also cool. Even though the trees are by no means massive, they, together with a large shrub or two, make it a really pleasant place to be. The house faces north, but since it's short the front yard does get quite sunny in summer, and in the afternoon, the sun from the west (Pterostyrax side) can still be quite forceful. Hope that helps :-) Karin L |
|
| Though I admittedly did plant a 'Forest Pansy' redbud this year, I would never, ever, ever, plant another eastern redbud unless I planned on my full time job being decimating seedlings. Because I *don't* roundup, I have a seedling nightmare every year. I cannot begin to tell you what a PITA it is!!! I have 4 full sized (at least 20') redbuds to contend with and they are breeders. lol I agree w/ ken that they can take full western sun, understory shade...you name it. The only thing they aren't into is soggy soil. They are a short lived tree...which is why they're such prolific seeders. Some thoughts:
|
|
| Paperbark Maple is a good idea. Pawpaw Styrax obassia Styrax 'Emerald Pagoda' Parrotia 'Vanessa' Taxodium 'Peve Minaret' |
|
| Yesterday I saw a tree that must be an Oxydendrum - in full bloom with reddish leaves. Wow. That's next on my list for the back yard! Karin L |
|
| I have 3 Cornus kousa, Korean dogwood. Two of those are 20 ft tallx 20 ft wide, 15-20 years old. You can control the shape by pruning. They are disease free, are situated in full sun and in partial shade. They are profuse bloomers in June, people on the street ask what they are. This year after a real big show of white flowers, they decided to have a lot of red splashy fruits. As long as they plaster the soil, no problem with me, but they made a mess of walkway and driveway, needing daily sweeping for a month. I just pruned hard one tree, hopefully next year there will be less mess. Bernd |
|
| Yes, if you have even slighly acid soil and are in zone 6 Oxydendrum is a must. I sure wish I was in zone 6, so many other plants I could be growing. |
|
| Good lord, whaas, where would you put MORE stuff? You gonna buy vacant lots and make your own arboretum? LOL... actually that would be pretty cool... j/k man, I think your place looks awesome ;-) Any other good sources of sourwood other than Arborday? I want to give it another shot without losing ALL 4 specimens sent to me due to a joke of a hacked up tiny root system. |
Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum. If you are a member, please log in. If you aren't yet a member, join now!
Return to the Trees Forum
Instructions
- You must be a registered member and logged in to post messages on our forums.
- Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review the contents and make changes.
- After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
- It is illegal to post copyrighted material without the owner's consent.
- HTML codes are allowed in the message field only.
- No advertising is allowed in any of the forums.
- If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
- If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.