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Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

Posted by hairmetal4ever Z7 MD (My Page) on
Wed, Oct 2, 13 at 11:44

I've seen some pics of the Starhill introduction of Nuttall's Oak, "New Madrid" - but cannot find it. Is it actually available commercially yet?

Has anyone else even heard of this? It's got purple-red new growth, and rather typical Nuttall fall color, looks pretty cool.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

The more I look, the more I like what Guy Sternberg is doing.

A few years back, over on the Conifer forum someone mentioned they had a Q. x bebbiana 'Taco II' - but I have NO IDEA where they got it? Do you have to be Guy's personal friend to get these clones?


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

I didn't want to bump you off the top with no helpful info BUT if you find a source for New Madrid, PLEASE LET ME KNOW

I have seen and heard of plain old seedlings having purple new growth not closely related to the New Madrid tree. I saw a purple leaved nuttall oak this spring at a native tree nursery and would have purchased it if it didn't look so sickly. Probably should have bought it anyways... My friend up in NWA saw several at a nursery near him this spring as well.


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

I will do that if I get some info.


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

FWIW there has to be something in the Nuttall genetics that makes purple/red leaved specimens (active growth, not fall color) pop up here and there...probably similar to what happens in Japanese and Norway maples.


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

This is the one my NWA friend bestowed upon me. I haven't planted it yet, but I will shortly. The leaves quickly went to a light green not long after this picture was taken. Pic was taken this spring.

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

Take care of my Oak baby, though I know you will. Just want to remind you that particular tree develops fall color LATE. In fact it was the latest of several that I had for a while, but good color when it did develop. One of the other ones I took to my family (from the same source and the same time as your tree) is one of the survivors. It is taller than I now, and had some colored leaves still on top.

Arktrees


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

How late is late? Thanksgiving?


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

hair,
Re-read my post. I was talking about the particular tree in the pic, nothing else. I did not keep track of when.

Arktrees


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

  • Posted by whaas 5a SE WI (My Page) on
    Thu, Oct 3, 13 at 16:14

Contact www.g2gardens.com and demand that they start selling these plants! Its a shame they aren't readily available on the market.

New Madrid is but one of Guy's intros. I got a baby from a contact in Missouri. The day after I planted it in September last year a f'ing rabbit ate it. Completely and utterly random as they haven't ate anything during the growing season prior.

Forrest Keeling is the exlusive grower for Starhill's intros from my understanding and G2gardens is the mail order. They are a different company but in the same town.

I have Chimney Fire, Birthday Candle and Wind Candle. Nice plants with good to excellent fall color.


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

Right now, their website, when you click "starhill intros" it says nothing is available, but under the 'Q' heading, under Quercus (using "all plants" link) I only see various species Oaks, including species Nuttall oak, and only one hybrid cultivar, a Q. x schuetti called "Kimberley".

I'm hoping it's just a matter of getting them ready for the Fall 2013/Spring 2014 season and they haven't updated it quite yet.


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

  • Posted by whaas 5a SE WI (My Page) on
    Thu, Oct 3, 13 at 21:31

Hey, at least I got ya in the right spot!

Call em up. The more calls they get the more demand they'll see is out there.

Already put my call in.


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

The 'New Madrid' ortet is growing at a rest area at New Madrid , MO. Almost was destroyed by MO highway department a few years back. Campaign was mounted to protect it, and the state acquiesced.
Seedlings (all?) come true to type, with red-purple foliage.
Not sure of a reliable source.

OIKOS was selling Taco Bebbs seedlings at one point in time.

Guy and crew at Starhill are having a bad time with oak wilt right now. Trenching and macroinjections to try to arrest it.


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

Wow, sorry to hear about the oak wilt issue. I hope they get a handle on it.

I was browsing the g2gardens website. Seems "incomplete" in a lot of ways - dead-end links, etc.

Most of the stuff they sell is available in "Step 2 RPM" which I take to be about the equivalent of a 1 yr seedling in a rootmaker type container with a dense root system.

There is a link to Starhill products but nothing shows as available.


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

WHOOMP! There it is...

Here is a link that might be useful: New Madrid Nuttall Oak


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

I might have made an inquiry too - so between me and whaas, they listened!

Looks like all the Starhill stuff is up now.


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

Did anyone order one yet?


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

Just went through the checkout process to see how much shipping would be. Came out to about $16 for shipping making the tree $46 shipped which IMO is very reasonable since this is the only place you can get it.

The size info is a "4 x 4 RPM" so I am guessing these are 1-2 yo seedlings in a 4" by 4" container?

I will probably pull the trigger on ordering one soon.

John


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

*Order'd*

I'll post pics when I get it =)


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

4 X 4 RPM is I believe a 2 yr rootstock/1 yr scion in a root pruning type container, that's my understanding.

I wonder if shipping to MD is higher...


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

D@*N!!! Wish I had a place for one. MUST KEEP MY BARGAIN WITH THE SIGNIFICANT OTHER........ :-(

Ok, John.... jealousy abounds.......

You know, you should have ordered two so that shipping per tree would have been less.... :-D

Arktrees


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

I thought "New Madrid" were seedlings and not an individual clone. Doh!

Not that it changes my interest in the order any at all...


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

Ark, I'm half tempted to drive up to MO and collect acorns in person lol

If only I knew the location...

And now I'll have two distinct colorful nuttall's thanks to you =) I'll give you acorns off of them when they start producing, promise


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

You know John, find the Missouri State Champion Nuttall Oak (should be a listing somewhere) and you find the population your looking for.

Arktrees

P.S Your welcome. What are friends for? :-))


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

Off to Google...

Well, I'm pretty sure it's in the bootheel of the state since that is their only apparent native habitat in the state. Don't think I could talk the wife into that road trip lol... Maybe tempt her with ticket bribe to a Thunder/Grizzlies game but I don't think they play when the acorns need to be collected which should be very soon...

Toro is closer, maybe we could talk him into it???


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

  • Posted by whaas 5a SE WI (My Page) on
    Mon, Oct 7, 13 at 20:56

Nice work Jon, but no Chimney Fire?

I'm going to pick up Big John and New Madrid in spring because of the more harsh winters up here. If it was a 2 year plant I might have pulled the trigger now.

Waiting for Kim to add the Prince of Darkness Beech.

Going to see if they'll pick up the Fire Water cultivar as well.


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

Prince of Darkness is there.

Says it's a hybrid...what with?

How does it compare with standard purple leaves F. sylvatica?


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

  • Posted by whaas 5a SE WI (My Page) on
    Tue, Oct 8, 13 at 13:42

'Prince of Darkness', our selection of a deep purple F1 back-cross hybrid beech that combines the very darkest of spring and summer foliage with the resiliency imparted by Asian beech (Fagus xmoesiaca x F. sylvatica 'Atropurpurea')

For one the name is too cool...and how could you not own one with the name Hair Metal Forever! Ozzy surely has to be in your setlist.


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

That's half the reason I want one!

I'd presume it might have a bit more heat tolerance than straight F. sylvatica. I wonder if it has hybrid vigor?

I might have to buy one. I'll call it 'Ozzy'.


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

Now I can't decide - there are so many cool things there.

Is anyone familiar with the Q. x deamii? A White/Chinkapin cross? Supposedly it's "seedless". I've never even seen one of those in a picture.


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

My 'New Madrid' is an F3 seedling. Lucky (?asked?) whether they all come true to color; the answer is that a very high percentage, do. My F3 during spring is dark purple when it flushes, then goes green 2 weeks later then the second flush again is dark purple and then returns to green; I don't recall fall color. One thing though, It grows very quick!

I was on the G2 website yesterday and for them just starting up I was pleasantly surprised at the selections being offered. At Starhill Forest Arboretum... all (3) 'New Madrid' are seed grown.

Illinois fall colors are late this year, however I'm visiting Starhill this Saturday and will get a pic of (a) New Madrid & of many, many other trees and shrubs. I go once a year at the same time. Of course, in addition, if you have gone onto the G2 website, you will have seen Q.mac. 'Big John' too is seedless. Maybe not 100% but Starhill has been observing it for a good period of time, and it's never produced an acorn.

One last thing; I highly recommended the bur oak 'Rough Rider'. It has an excurrent leader distinguishing it from most all trees, and the bark is out of this world, and, it's footprint is small. It won't be a wide tree but I'd still give it a12' diameter if at all possible. More if you have the space.

Dax


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

Came in yesterday =)

The root stock is about 12-14" and the grafted section looks to have grown another 12-14" this year. Leaves are so nice and green, even my wife commented she thought it was pretty as is. She's gonna love it in spring...

I'll take pics of the roots when I plant it. It is in a 4" x 4" container.

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Image Hosted by ImageShack.us


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

NICE!!!! Did I forget to tell you that you were supposed to ship that to me for "proper" inspection? ;-)

Wonder what they graph them onto? Wonder if there is difficulty in graphing as I've been told is often the case in oaks? Just thinking and typing at the same time.

Arktrees


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

I was wondering that too. White oaks are rather tricky to graft, but are generally successful. Red oaks are supposed to be EXTREMELY difficult to graft.

I'm actually kinda surprised that we haven't had to move to tissue culture for oak cultivars. Some Red Maples already have to be done that way, or from cuttings (but oaks rarely root from cuttings).


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

hair,
IME, the white oaks are no trickier to graft than simple stuff like apples & pears - but timing is a bit more critical; best results have been obtained here if grafts made just as the understock is beginning to unfurl leaves.
Have only done a few red/black oaks - using Q.rubra as understock. Did 'em just like I do the white oaks - a simple bark graft. Had good success - not 100%, but well above 50%. Two years out, no evidence of incompatibility, so... so far, so good.


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

Thanks, lucky - appreciate that input.

j0nd03- that little oak looks poised to grow nicely for you after establishment - I wouldn't be surprised if you get 2'+ per yr out of it.

Let us know how it colors up this fall, if it does (IME new transplants often don't color much for a year or two).

We REALLY want pics next spring, though!


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

I'm interested in the roots - that pot looks like a "normal" container from what I can see, granted, I'm using a smartphone.

When I emailed Kim she said they're all grown using Forrest Keeling's "RPM" method, which sounds similar to the Rootmaker/Smartpot type systems to get dense, fibrous root systems, but it must be a bit different, looking at that pot.


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

They might grow the plants with the RPM method but put them in these pots for shipping. Just a guess.

If it only grows 2' a year, it will be the slowest growing nuttall at my place. The two I had in the ground do 3-4'. Obviously, I haven't planted Ark's gifted tree or this one, but I am hopeful they fall in line and grow like the others =) Also, the nuttalls here have had nice fall color even the year of their transplanting.

Of course I'll throw up some spring pics! (Like you even had to ask ;) )

I'll take close up pics of the graft union sometime this weekend and post them. It looked good to me.

John

PS - Ark, if I haven't planted by the time we meet up this fall, I'll bring it and hang a "Look but don't touch" sign on it LOLOL

This post was edited by j0nd03 on Fri, Oct 11, 13 at 12:52


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

I think I'm going to pull the trigger on the New Madrid, but am also considering a couple others:

'Prince of Darkness' beech
'Taco' Bebb's Oak

The 'April Wine' buckeye looks cool, but I just know that in our climate, it would be a crispy, half-dead looking, scorched mess by mid summer.


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

Prince of Darkness is super. It's an upright weeper but wider than Purple Fountain and it appears viewing the ortet specimen that it will have more than a bit of width when it's up there at 30-50 feet. I'd be willing to wager it's 1/3 as wide as tall. I've give that tree 15-20 diameter feet at any rate.

John, I'm surprised they grafted it up that high. I'll bet though they used nuttallii as the seedling rootstock, or, no-one would ever graft that high up.

A simple way to remember what grafts onto what is:
reds on reds (all compatible)
whites on whites (all compatible)
cerris group on cerris group. occasionally you'll get takes putting cerris onto other whites, but it's best you keep cerris group with other cerris.

Have a good one!

Dax


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

I planted the New Madrid today. First video is the graft union. Looks good to me.

Graft Union

Second video shows the roots after I washed most of the potting soil away. I DO NOT think, check that, I KNOW they didn't use any sort of RPM system on the rootstock. J hooks everywhere!!! Not a nice surprise when I was expecting a superior root system... Keep this in mind when ordering from them...

Post Wash

Last video shows what was left after some root pruning. I pruned two of the J hooks as close to its origin as I possibly could. I was able to straighten the rest of the roots when I planted it with no problem.

Post Surgery

And the finished product

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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

Looks like the roots will end up fine, but I'd email them about it - esp since in my email exchange with Kim she stated they were all grown that way.

Good info, although I actually won't be ordering at least this fall, since the spousal unit put the brakes on further tree planting ventures for the time being.

One good thing about smaller potted stock, is that it is much easier to "work on" the roots than a 15 gallon rootbound mess, which I've dealt with before!

Maybe only at the liner stage, then moved to those pots for grafting??


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

Hair, I would bet this months paycheck that root stock has never seen any pot besides the one it arrived in.

Sorry to hear the your SO put the stop sign up! It's never easy to take but it is usually for the best. I am now I have my fourth "Last tree of the season, dear. I promise!" ;-)


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

Those roots give me a headache, John. That's precisely why I like to graft my own trees I must admit. When I buy understocks I prune them all perfectly and I carefully build a volcano inside a tree band pot, the same pot your tree came in and I spread the roots over the volcano and backfill. It's no different from how I plant any woody in the ground.

From an acorn, I get a tap-root that grows out of the bottom of the band pot and grows off to the side but at the end of the season I take the roots with media out of the band pot and clip the tap root off at the point where it is perfectly up and down, straight. Then I loosen the roots around the sides and this is what my root-system looks like:
(I know this will bore a lot of you, but this shows the root system before and after and from all four sides along with after clipping the tap root. This seedling was easy going. Most of my taproots grow out of the container and "J" across the bottom of the container which I said above - however is still an easy fix; very easy.)
 photo BandPotOakRoots6Months001.jpg

Band Pot Oak Root System 6 Months photo BandPotOakRoots6Months003.jpg

Band Pot Oak Root System 6 Months photo BandPotOakRoots6Months004.jpg

Band Pot Oak Root System 6 Months photo BandPotOakRoots6Months007.jpg

Band Pot Oak Root System 6 Months photo BandPotOakRoots6Months008.jpg

Band Pot Oak Root System 6 Months photo BandPotOakRoots6Months009.jpg

Band Pot Oak Root System 6 Months photo BandPotOakRoots6Months010.jpg

Band Pot Oak Root System 6 Months photo BandPotOakRoots6Months011.jpg

Band Pot Oak Root System 6 Months photo BandPotOakRoots6Months012.jpg

And, re-potted:
Band Pot Oak Root System 6 Months photo BandPotOakRoots6Months013.jpg

Band Pot Oak Root System 6 Months photo BandPotOakRoots6Months014.jpg

I can tell you what happened to the root system on your purchased tree. It was grown in a 3" deep plug and the person removed it from the plug and put it into the band pot w/o UN-spiraling the roots nor clipping any were severely spiraled. In other words, they did nothing.

I know you are all thinking about my tree "how does he do it?!" lol ;-)

Dax


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

Well that was certainly NOT boring. I for one appreciate a good looking rootball, especially coming out of a such a tiny pot.That's an amazing difference between the two!

Your plants and friends who receive them are lucky you put in the extra time to do it right =)


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

Yep. Laziness should not be an option.

Dax


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

My F2 "New Madrid"
Three years of drought and still coloring up well.
QN New Madrid F2 photo AledoProperty20133269QNNewMadridF2.jpg

Dax


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RE: Quercus nuttallii (texana?) 'New Madrid' - source?

Gorgeous!

I got some pics today at the petting farm we took the kiddos to.

Hope to get more tomorrow around town then will upload some.


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