Nice work Jon, but no Chimney Fire?

I'm going to pick up Big John and New Madrid in spring because of the more harsh winters up here. If it was a 2 year plant I might have pulled the trigger now.

Waiting for Kim to add the Prince of Darkness Beech.

Going to see if they'll pick up the Fire Water cultivar as well.

Prince of Darkness is there.

Says it's a hybrid...what with?

How does it compare with standard purple leaves F. sylvatica?

'Prince of Darkness', our selection of a deep purple F1 back-cross hybrid beech that combines the very darkest of spring and summer foliage with the resiliency imparted by Asian beech (Fagus xmoesiaca x F. sylvatica 'Atropurpurea')

For one the name is too cool...and how could you not own one with the name Hair Metal Forever! Ozzy surely has to be in your setlist.

That's half the reason I want one!

I'd presume it might have a bit more heat tolerance than straight F. sylvatica. I wonder if it has hybrid vigor?

I might have to buy one. I'll call it 'Ozzy'.

Now I can't decide - there are so many cool things there.

Is anyone familiar with the Q. x deamii? A White/Chinkapin cross? Supposedly it's "seedless". I've never even seen one of those in a picture.

My 'New Madrid' is an F3 seedling. Lucky (?asked?) whether they all come true to color; the answer is that a very high percentage, do. My F3 during spring is dark purple when it flushes, then goes green 2 weeks later then the second flush again is dark purple and then returns to green; I don't recall fall color. One thing though, It grows very quick!

I was on the G2 website yesterday and for them just starting up I was pleasantly surprised at the selections being offered. At Starhill Forest Arboretum... all (3) 'New Madrid' are seed grown.

Illinois fall colors are late this year, however I'm visiting Starhill this Saturday and will get a pic of (a) New Madrid & of many, many other trees and shrubs. I go once a year at the same time. Of course, in addition, if you have gone onto the G2 website, you will have seen Q.mac. 'Big John' too is seedless. Maybe not 100% but Starhill has been observing it for a good period of time, and it's never produced an acorn.

One last thing; I highly recommended the bur oak 'Rough Rider'. It has an excurrent leader distinguishing it from most all trees, and the bark is out of this world, and, it's footprint is small. It won't be a wide tree but I'd still give it a12' diameter if at all possible. More if you have the space.

Dax

Came in yesterday =)

The root stock is about 12-14" and the grafted section looks to have grown another 12-14" this year. Leaves are so nice and green, even my wife commented she thought it was pretty as is. She's gonna love it in spring...

I'll take pics of the roots when I plant it. It is in a 4" x 4" container.

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NICE!!!! Did I forget to tell you that you were supposed to ship that to me for "proper" inspection? ;-)

Wonder what they graph them onto? Wonder if there is difficulty in graphing as I've been told is often the case in oaks? Just thinking and typing at the same time.

Arktrees

I was wondering that too. White oaks are rather tricky to graft, but are generally successful. Red oaks are supposed to be EXTREMELY difficult to graft.

I'm actually kinda surprised that we haven't had to move to tissue culture for oak cultivars. Some Red Maples already have to be done that way, or from cuttings (but oaks rarely root from cuttings).

hair,
IME, the white oaks are no trickier to graft than simple stuff like apples & pears - but timing is a bit more critical; best results have been obtained here if grafts made just as the understock is beginning to unfurl leaves.
Have only done a few red/black oaks - using Q.rubra as understock. Did 'em just like I do the white oaks - a simple bark graft. Had good success - not 100%, but well above 50%. Two years out, no evidence of incompatibility, so... so far, so good.

Thanks, lucky - appreciate that input.

j0nd03- that little oak looks poised to grow nicely for you after establishment - I wouldn't be surprised if you get 2'+ per yr out of it.

Let us know how it colors up this fall, if it does (IME new transplants often don't color much for a year or two).

We REALLY want pics next spring, though!

I'm interested in the roots - that pot looks like a "normal" container from what I can see, granted, I'm using a smartphone.

When I emailed Kim she said they're all grown using Forrest Keeling's "RPM" method, which sounds similar to the Rootmaker/Smartpot type systems to get dense, fibrous root systems, but it must be a bit different, looking at that pot.

They might grow the plants with the RPM method but put them in these pots for shipping. Just a guess.

If it only grows 2' a year, it will be the slowest growing nuttall at my place. The two I had in the ground do 3-4'. Obviously, I haven't planted Ark's gifted tree or this one, but I am hopeful they fall in line and grow like the others =) Also, the nuttalls here have had nice fall color even the year of their transplanting.

Of course I'll throw up some spring pics! (Like you even had to ask ;) )

I'll take close up pics of the graft union sometime this weekend and post them. It looked good to me.

John

PS - Ark, if I haven't planted by the time we meet up this fall, I'll bring it and hang a "Look but don't touch" sign on it LOLOL

This post was edited by j0nd03 on Fri, Oct 11, 13 at 12:52

I think I'm going to pull the trigger on the New Madrid, but am also considering a couple others:

'Prince of Darkness' beech
'Taco' Bebb's Oak

The 'April Wine' buckeye looks cool, but I just know that in our climate, it would be a crispy, half-dead looking, scorched mess by mid summer.

Prince of Darkness is super. It's an upright weeper but wider than Purple Fountain and it appears viewing the ortet specimen that it will have more than a bit of width when it's up there at 30-50 feet. I'd be willing to wager it's 1/3 as wide as tall. I've give that tree 15-20 diameter feet at any rate.

John, I'm surprised they grafted it up that high. I'll bet though they used nuttallii as the seedling rootstock, or, no-one would ever graft that high up.

A simple way to remember what grafts onto what is:
reds on reds (all compatible)
whites on whites (all compatible)
cerris group on cerris group. occasionally you'll get takes putting cerris onto other whites, but it's best you keep cerris group with other cerris.

Have a good one!

Dax

I planted the New Madrid today. First video is the graft union. Looks good to me.

Graft Union

Second video shows the roots after I washed most of the potting soil away. I DO NOT think, check that, I KNOW they didn't use any sort of RPM system on the rootstock. J hooks everywhere!!! Not a nice surprise when I was expecting a superior root system... Keep this in mind when ordering from them...

Post Wash

Last video shows what was left after some root pruning. I pruned two of the J hooks as close to its origin as I possibly could. I was able to straighten the rest of the roots when I planted it with no problem.

Post Surgery

And the finished product

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Looks like the roots will end up fine, but I'd email them about it - esp since in my email exchange with Kim she stated they were all grown that way.

Good info, although I actually won't be ordering at least this fall, since the spousal unit put the brakes on further tree planting ventures for the time being.

One good thing about smaller potted stock, is that it is much easier to "work on" the roots than a 15 gallon rootbound mess, which I've dealt with before!

Maybe only at the liner stage, then moved to those pots for grafting??

Hair, I would bet this months paycheck that root stock has never seen any pot besides the one it arrived in.

Sorry to hear the your SO put the stop sign up! It's never easy to take but it is usually for the best. I am now I have my fourth "Last tree of the season, dear. I promise!" ;-)

Those roots give me a headache, John. That's precisely why I like to graft my own trees I must admit. When I buy understocks I prune them all perfectly and I carefully build a volcano inside a tree band pot, the same pot your tree came in and I spread the roots over the volcano and backfill. It's no different from how I plant any woody in the ground.

From an acorn, I get a tap-root that grows out of the bottom of the band pot and grows off to the side but at the end of the season I take the roots with media out of the band pot and clip the tap root off at the point where it is perfectly up and down, straight. Then I loosen the roots around the sides and this is what my root-system looks like:
(I know this will bore a lot of you, but this shows the root system before and after and from all four sides along with after clipping the tap root. This seedling was easy going. Most of my taproots grow out of the container and "J" across the bottom of the container which I said above - however is still an easy fix; very easy.)
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And, re-potted:
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I can tell you what happened to the root system on your purchased tree. It was grown in a 3" deep plug and the person removed it from the plug and put it into the band pot w/o UN-spiraling the roots nor clipping any were severely spiraled. In other words, they did nothing.

I know you are all thinking about my tree "how does he do it?!" lol ;-)

Dax

Well that was certainly NOT boring. I for one appreciate a good looking rootball, especially coming out of a such a tiny pot.That's an amazing difference between the two!

Your plants and friends who receive them are lucky you put in the extra time to do it right =)

Yep. Laziness should not be an option.

Dax

My F2 "New Madrid"
Three years of drought and still coloring up well.
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Dax

Gorgeous!

I got some pics today at the petting farm we took the kiddos to.

Hope to get more tomorrow around town then will upload some.

So, John, how is your New Madrid doing this spring?

Alright, hair =)

I have kind of slacked off on my picture taking with the new baby around so sorry about that!

New Madrid as the leaves just begin to enlarge taken 4-27-14

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Here are some current pics a month later taken this morning 5-17-14

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It is important to remember, nuttall oak flushes several times per year so the purple new growth against the green old growth should occur multiple times every year. I would say the purple of my New Madrid so far is not as purple as Forrest Pansy redbud or Grace smoketree FWIW

Here is a nuttall oak Arktrees gifted to me. IMO, it is even nicer than the New Madrid and has more pink/orange to the new leaves as opposed to purple of the New Madrid.

Pic taken on 4-27-2014 (all pics taken same dates as New Madrid above)

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And more pics taken this morning 5-17-14

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Nice pics - somehow I lost this thread and never saw your reply.

I am looking at buying this same tree. I have limited space and this is my only oak I can plant. Spring photos by j0nd03 are not acceptable. Have others here seen better spring color than this? There are other oaks I would prefer to plant if this is the best I can expect.

Hey there, slim! I have to agree with you it was not overwhelmingly impressive this spring but it is still a baby. I personally will wait until it is about 8-10' tall before deciding if it will get shovel pruned or not. I am considering moving it close to the other nuttall Arktrees gave me which is about 30' from my rapidly growing 20' species nuttall.

It did flush a second time in July FTR. Ark's gift did as well :)

Linked below you may see a grafted version of the ortet/parent tree as well as a photo of a sapling (F2 "New Madrid). At the end of row 3 and continuing.......

Dax

Here is a link that might be useful: Starhill Cultivars

Those pictures are exactly why the tree should not be judged until it is a little larger than the 1-2 year graft mine currently is. Thanks, Dax

Has anyone seen the parent tree or a 'New Madrid' with stunning red spring color? How does it compare to Bloodgood Japanese Maple at first flush? Is it even close to as brilliant as advertised? I have seen the photos online, but those are often color enhanced.

ortet Quercus ellipsoidalis 'December Red'
photo zoomed from a distance

Gorgeous, Dax.

When does it start turning color?

(and could I get some scionwood?) Would it graft to Scarlet Oak or Northern Red Oak reasonably well (since I have those)?

Graft of Quercus 'December Red' photo Oct. 24 2014

Hi Hair, definitely it will graft to rubra or palustris or coccinea, basically any red. Mine is on palustris. You're welcome to scionwood whenever you're ready. Shoot an email to me.

Two weeks ago it was green. I would guess the second week of October it starts to turn.

'December Red'

This post was edited by gardener365 on Fri, Oct 24, 14 at 10:52

Nice. Looks every bit as good as it's close cousin, Scarlet Oak, but appears to hold longer.

That's right.

I sent leaves and twigs to Morton Arboretum to have it ID'd properly. The place this tree is growing is in a tiny and I mean miniscule pocket of just a few trees... when every tree is leafless it stands there bright red for months. It's quite a tree. It's also taller than it appears to be. It's easily 25'+ and has a real nice shape compared to the others which are broad and not as tall.

Thanks,

Dax

Looks like a great tree!

Are you considering a patent or anything on it?

I'll keep in mind if I get scionwood (and, more importantly, get a graft to take) that it won't necessarily color well for a few years.

My climate is milder/warmer than yours, but since oaks overall color well here (Scarlets and Whites in particular), I imagine this would, too.

If you have anything interesting that would graft to a Swamp Chestnut oak rootstock, also let me know.

This post was edited by hairmetal4ever on Fri, Oct 24, 14 at 11:12

No, it's free for the trading.

I have several whites you'll be interested in. Let me know when you email how many chestnut rootstocks you have, or if you'd like me to graft anything for you, you can send the rootstocks to me and I'll care for them this winter and graft them come March-April.

Dax

I sent you an email through GW about an hour ago - if you didn't get it, let me know.

When you reply to my email we can discuss the white oaks and the logistics.

The coccinea trees are in 1 Gal Smart Pots and the Q. michauxii are in 1 Gal Roottrappers, all one-year seedlings (I sprouted the acorns this spring) If I could ship them safely then I might see if you could graft them - I'd rather not try bare-rooting them unless you think that'd be OK.

Nope the email didn't show up and that's a first. I've sent an email thru your page.

Dax

Dax, that December Red graft is looking GREAT! I wish I still had my graft. I have been too embarrassed to tell you but one random day in July of 2012 (nearly right after it was planted IIRC) I was out watering my trees and the December Red was GONE. Tag was still in the cage I had configured to keep critters out. I talked it over with Arktrees and abciximab (Patrick) from the conifer forum when it happened. Best we could tell a gopher pulled it straight down and ate it. I planted a white oak seedling in the same spot that fall and in spring/summer of 2013, the same exact thing happened; it flat out disappeared one day! Really weird.

I would love to try it again if you have extras and pay you or buy some rootstocks for you or something. Broke my heart when I found out it was gone. I immediately suspected it was the neighbor's kids (it was located 20' from property line) but they are well behaved. I talked to their Dad about it and I am pretty sure it wasn't taken by them/someone else since it was so small. Come to think of it, this same thing happened all the way across my property to an acer barbatum seedling I planted. Maybe I am in a Bermuda Triangle of sorts!!!Very strange...

Another plus to this selection, the leaves on mine emerged a very pretty red before turning green. This is a common trait with red family oaks but it was very noticeable on my specimen.

John

Got it and replied, Dax.

BTW did you double check your spam folder? I'm sure you did but I'm used to asking people that at work...haha.

Thanks!

Another question - do grafted oak scions grow slowly as compared to the normal seedling growth rate, or is it about the same?

It's the same hair. Influence of rootstock will determine vigor and sometimes weak seedlings (low vigor seedlings) are used accidentally I suppose is as good a word as any. That's why in any circumstance where something can be rooted it's always best to have a plant on its own roots vs. another foreign root-system & staying with same species when grafting is always the best route. But, it isn't necessary to use the same species as a rootstock.

John, no problemo. I sowed 30 Quercus rubra to use for rootstocks 2016-2017. If you can wait I'll graft you another then. In fact I'll sow a few more rubra's this year, yet since I have more.

Later on guys,

Dax

So in other words, slow for the first few years, then taking off fairly quickly?

In that case, I think that Q. coccinea, being fairly vigorous, is probably a good rootstock for reds, as would be Q. rubra, and michauxii or macrocarpa, which both seem (for me) to have good seedling vigor (even if macrocarpa slows down for the next few years) might be good options for whites.

gardener365, is it your cultivar Q. coccinea 'December Red' Pavia nursery are selling?

http://www.pavia.be/catalogue/show/q

Yes. I sent him scions quite a number of years ago.

Dax

How is your graft doing now?