Shop Products
Houzz Logo Print
bart_2010

Beginner's question

bart_2010
9 years ago

My garden as of yet is mainly a rose garden, on a steep slope in a woodland in the Appenines of Tuscany, Italy. I'm branching out, now, getting into trees, but I must admit it's a little daunting. Roses are so easy to move,and even the huge ramblers grow like climbing plants,so I've gotten the jist of placement ,but trees? They start out so small, and get so big, and moving them is not an option once they reach a certain size...any tips for a beginner, to help me visualize and decide on placement of trees? in particular, I'm talking about two evergreens that get very big: cedrus deodara and cedrus libani. Thanks for you thoughts, bart

Comments (11)

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    9 years ago

    Bart, without actually seeing the site, it's difficult to get very specific about placement :-)

    These are trees that get big (maybe very big) and like a lot of sun -- this should be your primary guide. Site them where they can grow to mature size without concern for any structures. And where they won't obscure any views you may have. And as both have the potential for specimen quality, I'd consider planting them where each will shine individually, so not in the same area. Maybe even on opposite sides of the garden.

    Any chance of photos of the areas you are contemplating? Or the garden as a whole?

  • Toronado3800 Zone 6 St Louis
    9 years ago

    Now it will be decades if you have a large area, but also think about the shade they will provide. In this case, will they grow to shade your flower bed if you plant them here vs there.

    With trees I like buying small. It makes the planting easier and if you need to move them a year down the road it might set the tree back but they won't be sooo big you can not handle it.

    Good luck and post pictures!

  • bart_2010
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    This is frustrating; I've posted twice on this and on Conifers and though it says my message has been posted, neither have come up...

  • bart_2010
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Well, here goes again. Sad to say, I'm not good on photos; not only do I fnd it tedious ,frustrating and time-consuming to post the photos,I find it hard to use my cheapo digitalcamera; liked my old-style reflex Nikon so much better.But I do appreciate your comments,and here I'm posting my original message from Conifers forum (hopefully). Especially I'd appreciate comments on the question: how far to space the cedars from the border of the woods. If a c.libani gets to be 25 meters wide at maturity, ought I space it about 12 meters away from the edge of the woods? Secondly, please comment on the cherry tree question. We are talking about very long-term plantings,and i could use some guidance...Here goes...
    I'm going back and forth as far as placement goes for my new baby conifers. First of all,I'm a bit perplexed about placement for my two cedrus: deodara and libani. It's hard, because now they are so small, but I realize that they can get very, very big,so I think they must be placed on the edges of the cultivated,garden area of my woodland,where they will be able to be seen in their entirety,but won't block the view or the sunlight which the roses in the central are of the garden need.Furthermore, the land in question has a very sharp slope; say about a 45 degree angle. How far apart should the two trees be,if I were to decide to place both at the foot of the slope? How much space should I leave between these new trees and the deciduous ones already present? How fast do they C. libani and c. deodara) grow? I have a mature native cherry tree that is a cloud of beauty in spring when it is in flower, and I'd hate to block the view of that, but also wonder if this would actually be an issue: if the cedrus grow very slowly, and a cherry is not especially long-lived,it might be decades before the evergreen would be large enough to hide the cherry,which may or may not still be alive...any comments would be appreciated; I am new to trees, and am finding it challenging to figure out placement. Thanks, b

  • sam_md
    9 years ago

    hi bart,
    Cedar of Lebanon seen here is at least 150 years old. The reason it grew into such a beautiful specimen is because it has plenty of room and full sun. The spread is about 80' wide and CofL can get wider than that. The tree is also in scale with the large mansion in back.
    My only advice to you is to give your cedars plenty of room.
    {{gwi:437911}}

  • bart_2010
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    That is indeed a beauty! However,on the Belvedere in Enna, Sicily,there is a large GROUP of what I seriously think are Lebanon cedars all planted close together; it must be about ten trees in a sort of park. They were planted during the fascist reign,so they'd be about 80 years old. The effect is beautiful; the trees are much less dense than the one pictured,with no lower branches,and the effect is extremely sculptural. Likewise, I see in my own town that they use C. deodaras right and left, in public plantings,to shade a parking lot ,and spaced VERY close together ,less than 2 meters!!!!! Thank you for your comments, so much; even just discussing the matter is a big, big help bart

  • bart_2010
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    OK, I found a goof spot for C. deodara and planted it. Only things nearby are a native spirea and a Leylandii that I put in last year to help screen out beetles,but both can be sacrificed once the cedar starts getting really big. Still wondering about a spot for C. libani...bart

  • Sara
    9 years ago

    Bart I'm glad you asked this question because I have been wondering the same thing. My wish list is too big for the spaces that I have, so difficult to decide with so many great choices.

    Sam_md what a beautiful cedar!

    Sara

  • bart_2010
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Yes, it is hard,especially because with these trees that get so big you have to really work hard with your imagination,trying to picture how a landscape might be in 20 plus years. I admit I don't much understand some people's insistance on seeing pictures of the site in question; at least in my case, I seriously don't know how I could photograph my landscape to give and idea of what it's like in 3 dimensions, since we are not talking about a flat suburban lot surrounding a house,but a sharply sloping woodland with clearings where the soil is very thin and rocky and has suffered much from erosion over the course of the years.A photograph would only show a strip of scruffy land, backed by trees; I don't see how I could get across the depth,or the grading of the slope.Even in Sam_md's photo of a mature tree we can't see what it's actual placement in the landscape is,so it really does depend a lot more on thought and imagination than plantings of smaller things does. Best wishes,bart

  • Sara
    9 years ago

    I like pictures, too, but I agree that depending on the site/location that it can be difficult to get a good photograph to depict the surroundings and truly portray your landscape. Please keep us posted as to your decisions and progress. :)

    Sara

  • bart_2010
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I like pictures, too, Sara, but apart from the objections already expressed as to their informative value, I myself am one of those people that does not find herself very at ease with the digital world. I find my cheapo digital camera hard to use, and am never sure of just what i'm actually photographing (liked my old-style reflex Nikon SO MUCH BETTER.) Then,even if I did by chance get a decent, expressive picture,I find the whole routine of putting the little thingie into the computer, selecting the photos,trying to post them only to find that they are too "big" for GW, so then they must be down-sized or whatever the lingo is,etc, etc, etc. irritating and time-consuming. I'm grateful to those who don't suffer my limitations,but also can't see bending over backwards to do something that i don't enjoy. I'm really grateful to the people that are willing to share their knowledge and opinions however.
    I found a spot for C. Libani. I'm not as pleased with it as the one I found for C.deodara; I'm worried that the area is too rocky and the soil too shallow. But there are so many criteria to consider for this tree: it needs space, sun, gets huge so can't be placed where it might interfere with the nearby villages' telephone wire or block the view or the sun for the rose garden. What's more, I read that when mature, this type of tree can sometimes just "drop" a huge limb, even without bad weather to provoke it, so maybe better avoid placing it near a drive-or walk way...I figure that the improvements I did on the soil (lots of organic matter and kitty litter) will help the baby tree to get started,and then the roots hopefully will find their own ways through gaps between rocks, etc.,though I hope to continue building the soil over the years as well. After all, these trees come from a meditteranean , mountainous climate,so hopefully they don't really necessarily need very deep, fertile soil.
    The fact is, when I start out with a new type of plant, I always feel very cautious; I know with roses I used to space them very widely, only to find that they couldn't flourish this way,and my garden remained empty and ununified. Even with Italian cypress trees, when i started out with them 2 years ago, I was awful nervous about placement; this year I find myself planting my 7 new babies with an almost happy-go-lucky attitude...bart