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Trees for Missouri & Kansas

slimwhitman
13 years ago

A group of 17 tree experts from Missouri & Kansas have developed a preferred tree list. If you live anywhere near those states, you might be interested in downloading it. Find it here:

Here is a link that might be useful: Great Trees Link

Comments (21)

  • Dan _Staley (5b Sunset 2B AHS 7)
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I just got back from SMA in Albuquerque, and I'd just like to say I wish more LArchs knew at least a little about plants, it would help us a lot. Surely you can push ASLA to get back to teaching horticulture in university and make it a requirement for the letters after your name.

    Nonetheless, great list and thank you very much for the excellent list, which is actually here and I'll pass it on around these parts. Did I mention it was a great list?

    o Do your folks find that the Acer get chlorosis in the areas of study with alkaline soils (or is this the reason they are lower on the list for 'adaptability')?

    Dan

  • slimwhitman
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for the kind words. I agree with you that landscape architects rarely know plants well. The first group I presented this info to was the local ASLA chapter. I was amazed at the attendance (70+ showed up!) My state no longer requires plant i.d. for licensure. Pretty sad.


    I spent a ton of time getting the database together and fine tuning the questionnaire. It took another full year to get 17 responses from the best arborists/nurserymen/educators in my area. Some needed monthly "reminders". It took them several hours to fill out. But it was totally worth it. Most tree lists are created by "committee" and end up with some garbage on them. This list was 100% numerical averaging of expert opinions to get the "best of the best". I was quite pleased with the results. The process is what sets this list apart from the rest.


    As for the maples...we have trouble with red maples here. They are still overused because they transplant well, but we find that the typical high pH clay soil stunts them so badly that a white oak tends to grow 3 times faster than a red maple. Can't tell that to a tree salesman, though. He likes selling those red maples. A.fremannii does better, but those are just well formed silver maples with good fall color ;)

    Sugar maples are much better trees here, though still have trouble in below average soil. It seems that the Caddos do excellent in non-irrigated soils, but poorly when irrigated.

  • cacau
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I concur with all the above--a fine set of lists created by some knowledgeable folks. Most of the favored tree species on the list would do well in the Denver area, but the majority of LA's here, and even most arborists would look at many of them and say, "those are exotics, they'll require too much care, and besides, we don't know where to get them, and even if we knew where to get them they'd cost more than the usual stuff and we'd have to pay freight on top of it; our bottom line can't tolerate it."

    And that kind of narrow thinking, unfortunately, is hard to argue with, especially in times of shrinking budgets in both the public and private sectors. The result is the repeated planting of the same overused 30 spp. and cultivars that everyone learned back in college. "That's how we do it out here"--Less expensive trees + higher ratio of establishment + lower aftercare = more profit + usually a satisfied client. There's enough blame to go around, from designers to arborists to nurseries to clients.

    To Slimwhitman: how much of the above is applicable to the arboriculture scene in KC? I know KC is a more benign environment for trees than here, but is this list going to push the comfort zone of professionals there? Are people going to be scratching their heads about Eucommia ulmoides and Acer triflorum?

  • slimwhitman
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cacau- You are right, there are a lot of trees on the list that are rarely planted. I only included trees in the study that could be found through a Monrovia or F.J.Schmidt type provider. The really weird stuff was left off the list (plus I would have not been able to get enough expert responses on them). In the back of my mind, my goal was to be able to provide a list that landscape architects and city foresters could use when specifying trees. One that would get them to think outside the box and promote/specify great off-beat trees and diversify their urban forest. All these trees can be had as long as the contractor has a few months to find them. Currently, all I see being installed here is ash, red maple, freeman maple and a few common ornamentals. I think we can do a lot better than that. The sheer number of ash still being planted is amazing, considering EAB is known in SE Missouri.

    Right now, I am setting up winter presentations to local city tree boards to get them to update their (terrible) preferred tree lists (river birch as a street tree?). I have created an entertaining 1 hr presentation and it looks like I will be able to present it to some state-level forestry/planning conferences.

    One of my ultimate goals is to be able to sell the “process” as a service I can provide to cities, regional planning agencies and regional nurseryman associations. I would administer the database, contact (and nag) local tree experts, and then develop a tree list for that metropolitan area based on the local expert opinions. I have gotten some interest for this service from a group of Denver nurseryman. One thing worth considering is that each expert’s opinion is valuable, but are based on that one person’s experiences. Being able to numerically quantify his/her opinions and average them together with other expert opinions is what really makes the list valuable. All my expert participants were very glad they participated in this study.

  • Dan _Staley (5b Sunset 2B AHS 7)
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Every tree in the Denver Basin and on the Front Range is an exotic save for plains cottonwood, box elder, green ash, a couple willows and pondo. I'd say 99.475% of arborists do not think 'exotic no', and we struggle to find good trees to expand our palette (and to find them at suppliers). This simple fact is why I like the list and IMHO the small trees is a nice improvement over what we do here. I'm intrigued by the Acer saccharum ‘Autumn Splendor’ et al. and will seek them out to look at.

    Thanks again for this work.

    Dan

  • arktrees
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Dan,
    Just a bit of information for you. Acer saccharum ‘Autumn Splendor’ is being planted locally by our small botanical garden (Botanical Garden of the Ozarks), and have only been in a couple of years, but they are doing well here (not the same as Denver) with a very nice orange color. Also note the link to the Arkansas Plant Evaluation Program website showing 'Autumn Splendor' and "John Pair" in their 2003 plating trail. More detailed information could probable be obtained from Dr. Jim Robbins. Again, it's not Denver, but it's data.

    They also planted Pacific Sunset Maple in the landscape islands in the parking lot, and several of those (in the larger islands) have grown as much as 5'/yr (yes feet) after 1-2 years in the ground. they appear to be VERY tough trees.

    Arktrees

    Here is a link that might be useful: 2003 Plants/ Arkansas Plant Evaluation Program 2007 Final Report

  • cacau
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Slim, may I suggest you remove Juglans nigra from your list of long-lived trees? Right now the Thousand Canker Disease seems to be on an inevitable path to decimate the North American population of black walnut. I was in KC a few months ago and was amazed at how common black walnut is in your urban area; here it's probably a bit under one percent of the urban forest and is now under heavy siege from TCD.

    Regarding Fraxinus spp. here, what you say is surprising; I guess people here got the message about EAB earlier. Though the EAB situation was already clearly ominous before spring 2009, I've seen very few ash planted here within the last two years and nursery offerings have dwindled correspondingly. As far as Acer x freemanii cultivars, their use has increasingly been discouraged by some municipalities here including Denver. And about the last of your "overplanted in KC" trio, A. rubrum is still going fairly strong here but its greater weakness locally seems to be sunscald rather than anemic growth.

    I wish you a lot of success in your endeavors. Pushing to expand horticultural horizons usually falls to a small percentage of the active professionals as well as to the independent gardeners who are driven more by passion for plants than by efficiency or monetary return. Even among professionals unbound by inertia and who are relatively knowledgeable about the alternatives, economic considerations so often thwart their best intentions. The trouble is, it's the professionals who are responsible for choosing a very large fraction of the trees being planted. That's what makes forums like this one so valuable--there are many people here who have the time, money and interest to experiment, usually on their own property, and we can share the info on what's working. Along with the people here, we customarily look to institutions such as arboreta, botanic gardens, university faculties, etc., to pioneer this kind of change, but not all the institutions come through for us.

    Just look for example at the interface between plant nurseries and their customers--a kind of negative reinforcement often occurs. Customers may not recognize new plant offerings and so a nursery--if it tries something different--at the end of the season is stuck selling them at cost or even destroying them. On the other hand, the customers who do eventually learn about and desire something different often find the nurseries saying they tried carrying the items in the past but couldn't move them.

    Breaking these logjams of horticultural habit is something we all ought to promote. I look at the example of Japanese maples (speaking strictly of A. palmatum and its cultivars) here as an example. Ten or fifteen years ago, the conventional wisdom would've been that it'd be pointless to attempt growing them here. However, gradually the demand for them built up, largely because of experienced local gardeners reading about JMs and other gardeners moving here from areas where the trees were more common--A. palmatum never having been a focus at the Denver Botanic Gardens or any arboretum in the region. Small specialty nurseries responded little by little by supplying the plants, initially at a considerable premium to other ornamental trees. As people got their JMs established (and there was a learning curve), demand continued to build so that some of the medium-sized nurseries began carrying them, with an added benefit that retail prices have now declined to some extent. At this point I can think of about 50 established JMs growing within a half-mile radius of my house. Granted, this is not a tree that can be grown in every soil, exposure, microclimate, etc. in our region, and they're likely to need more "babying" at first, but A. palmatum should never have been written off as it was for so many years.

    On the other hand, A. palmatum is not a likely candidate for roadside planting or in any other difficult site. However, I believe there is a parallel in terms of tougher large shade trees that have much wider applicability. Referring just to oaks, except for inertia and perhaps a small cost differential, there's no reason Quercus ellipsoidalis, shumardii, velutina, and alba shouldn't be making a significant contribution to a diverse urban forest here, and those are not species that are nowhere near as fussy as Japanese maples. I specifically point those species out because Schmidt, the nursery you mentioned, seems to be supplying these en masse...but to whom? Someone is purchasing them, but they don't seem to be showing up here. The same is true of other Quercus spp. that could be used here because there are growers out there producing them, but again, we await the trees' arrival.

  • Dan _Staley (5b Sunset 2B AHS 7)
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cacau, someone at SMA this week relayed that authorities stopped a truck at the CA border that had ash firewood with EAB in it. Its coming, altho out here we have enough problems with lilac ash borer... I second A. palmatum and we have a nice one on a mound in a protected spot & it seems very happy.

    Dan

  • cacau
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Dan, that EAB report sounds totally believable. I think EAB skipped many miles already to appear a year or so ago near a campground in SE Missouri, and the same thing may have happened in WV. The wood transport problem is a monster as we now see also with Thousand Canker. It wouldn't surprise me if EAB is in CO already. Most campgrounds here are at elevation where there's nothing for an EAB to eat, but I think there are also some campsites at Chatfield and Cherry Creek Reservoirs in the metro area. Those state parks have now been ringed with suburban development where EAB would find many tasty ash treats. I wonder if the state parks have had the ash cleared out as a preventive, or whether that would even make any sense. I seem to recall from the early days of EAB concern that they could only travel about a half mile on their own.

  • Dan _Staley (5b Sunset 2B AHS 7)
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The mile quarantine, cacau, didn't work in MI and that's how it escaped. Its only a matter of time. The latest Journ Arbor has a paper that found two-year control with injections and that will ensure not every tree dies.

    Now I should make plans on how we can get another ornamental tree in the yard...

    Dan

  • brian_zn_5_ks
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I recently took a call at the nursery from a contractor looking for trees. Red maples, pears - and 3" caliper Spring Snow crabs...I immediately realized he was working from an LA spec list. 30 years ago somebody learned that if you wanted a fruitless ornamental in a landscape, you spec'd Spring Snow - a nasty, disease prone selection that should have been phased out of the trade 31 years ago...

    Every one of us in the pipeline - grower, nurseryman, contractor, designer - should be learning from our experiences with these outdated and limited old tree lists. But it is going to be a very slow process. It can take an extremely inconvenient time to get a reasonable plant substitution approved in large projects - which means that the nurseryman isn't getting any trees sold, subcontractors aren't getting any trees planted, and crews aren't getting paid - so we just keep giving them what they ask for...

    Ah well. Robert, I salute your very valuable work, and hope that in time we'll see some changes in those spec orders...

    brian

  • Dan _Staley (5b Sunset 2B AHS 7)
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It is important at plan review to ensure plant material is appropriate. When I practiced planning in WA, I did it all and asked for material to change before approval. Here in Colo one town I worked for had a hort degree working in the Utility Dept as well, so inappropriate material rarely made it in the ground, except for the common occurrence of the nursery not having the stock you want.

    At any rate, I'm already passing the list around.

    Dan

  • slimwhitman
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Brian-
    Good remarks. Sounds like the junk that my office was producing before I came and whipped the plant pallet into shape. We were spec'ing tons of Spring Snow Crab, Red Maple and Ash like we had no choice. Thing is, most LA's take few if any hort classes and when we get in the real world we are more concerned about grading/drainage design, wall details and paving layout to get too into researching what trees to use. LA's spend a lot of time figuring out where the trees go, but do not understand the trees well enough to take it to the next level. It's really too bad. In time, I hope to educate my local brotherine and get them to use the trees on the list.
    One problem is that we are not well woven into the tree expert circles(arborists, extension agencies, educators, good nurserymen). We only cross paths with a few commecial contractors (often low bidders) and we ask them what the best trees are. They typically know trees about as poorly as we do. They judge a good tree by how well it lasts through the 1 year warranty period (hence red maple & ash).
    I also remind my fellow LA's to go back to their projects 5-10 years after it was completed and to bring their planting plans with them. That way they can see where/how they failed and where/how they succeeded.

    Dan-
    Plan review? Around here that is a joke. I know of no city staffers in any of the KC metro cities that have a hort bone in their body (there might be a few, but they are not involved in plan review). Most cities only care that you meet plant count and sizes. The remote chance that someone compares your planting plan to the city tree list would probably be a bad thing since many city tree lists are full of really bad trees and missing many great trees.
    Thanks for passing the list around. I like hearing that my efforts are appreciated and going to good use.

  • Dan _Staley (5b Sunset 2B AHS 7)
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm quite sure there are few planners with hort training, else these cr*ptacular landscapes wherever you go wouldn't happen. Sigh.

    Dan

  • terri_ks
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I took this list with me to "The Great big tree auction" and bought 4 trees at the Kokopelli nursery in kansas city. I am going to the auction again tomorrow. They have a lot of trees on the list. I did see people buying ash and red maples where some of the better unknown trees were not selling for as much

  • whaas_5a
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Great list...thanks for sharing. Alot of those trees are great choices for SE WI, yet rarely used in the landscape.

    Maackia amurensis...what a great little tree.

    Do any of you have any pics to share of your projects or even your home landscape for inspiration?

  • slimwhitman
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    terri_ks - Glad to hear you could use the list. Be sure to forward it to others. As for the tree auction, the nurseryman selling most of the trees in that auction is a participant in the study I conducted. He is a real plantsman. That is why you are seeing lots of great trees in the auction.

    Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.treeauction.org/

  • terri_ks
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    2 more auctions this Saturday. The great big tree Auction and SpringHill tree farm. It is very sad how the housing market is affecting growers

  • Toronado3800 Zone 6 St Louis
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Funny about the ash being sold if you are refering to white or green ash. The Gateway Arch landscape redesign is talking about replacing their near monoculture of ash entirely in a year or two thanks to emerald ash borer.

    Guess that comment about 1 year survival rates being all that matters is true.

  • terri_ks
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The last auction is today and 10% will be donated to the Master Gardeners. They are supposed to have hard to find varieties today. I am going for a Yellow wood tree. Inventory on the web site.

  • slimwhitman
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    FYI... I added an evergreen list last year.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Great Trees