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| So the local village board has decided to have a much needed new sewer system installed to replace the 60- year old one that isn't holding up that well.
Sadly this has required the cutting down of some nice mature trees in the parkway. None on my side, but two nice red maples (with great form and color) were cut down yesterday. I had caught up with the village clerk last week and told her of my displeasure, but there's not much she could do about it at that time. The residents were only given about a week and a half notice that the trees would be cut down. Now the front of their house will be facing the harsh summer sun full-on. As they bought the house 4 years ago, and they liked having the trees there (that made the house more appealing), they are now very disappointed. Even though the trees were clearly in the parkway, their removal takes away from the aesthetic appeal and value of their house. The village's attitude sort of seems to be one of "since it's in the parkway, we can do what we want with it". I won't argue directly with that, but will question whether the homeowner can likewise complain about property devaluation. Does anybody know of any possible legal precedents for a situation like this? This is in Illinois, BTW. The attached photo shows them in the background, one orange, the other still green. There's a dying green ash hiding in the background, too. Thanks, vince |
Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Tue, Oct 30, 12 at 18:20
| an easement.. is an easement.. its not yours.. you have no rights.. and no recourse ... what more do you want ... Even though the trees were clearly in the parkway, their removal takes away from the aesthetic appeal and value of their house. ==>> they were provided a mortgage map at purchase.. they attained no rights in regard to trees NOT on their property ... if they paid extra for trees/view/aesthetic .. NOT ON THEIR PROPERTY ... well .. what can i say ... my good friend neighbors just sold.. they even advertised the lot as having a park like view ... but if i want to bulldoze it ... the new owner can not stop me.. nor presume that i will pay them.. for loss of the view ... now.. all that said.. maybe you can hook up a 20 foot maple to your bumper.. and drag a new one over for them.. lol ... ken |
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| In an easement it IS STILL your property, you instead give over certain specific rights to the city or whatever entity that bought the easement. Some cities will still try to avoid cutting the trees, sometimes even boring under them (which is very expensive BTW). The local city that values trees did just that on a sewer project that ran into several VERY LARGE Oaks. Much depends upon the local government and the attitudes of the people that live there. One of the local cities is all about their trees, as that is what the population demands, The next city north, could not care less, and they are all about the cheapest possible, etc. Needless to say, one looks great and has fared well on property values during the downturn, and one not so much. First thing to do is to pull the survey that they should have had done when buying. It will have should have any easements that were dedicated previously. Make sure they HAVE an easement there. Just because the city says they have an easement, does not mean that they do. Many many cities will try to bluff. If they claim an easement when you can't find evidence of one, make them produce PROOF. they should have that before ever starting any project. I know in my state it is required. Frankly, older homes often don't have easements as they were built at a time when they were not required. If that turns out to be the case, then you would have every right to sue them in most states. Also you can get as many people as possible and go down and raise hell about it. They really don't like that kind of attention. Tell them an easement does not give them the right to degrade your property values, and essence steal from you. Call media attention to it as well if possible. You should have also been give far far more notice than 10 days. Typically a public hearing is required for any project crossing private property even if there is an easement. I know of one home owner locally when they were cutting trees from easements to clear power lines, went down to the city hall and proceeded to explain to them that he was going to sue the hell out of them. Yes, he knew he would eventually lose, but in the mean time, he would hold up the project, and cost them lots of money and bad press. Guess what, they found a compromise. Lastly, if there is an easement, measure everything to make sure the tree was in the easement. If it was not, then you got possible grounds there as well. In short, don't lie down, and don't take their word for it. All this is my opinion and I have no direct legal background. I do know something about how these kind of projects are handled here in my corner of Arkansas as there have been many public and legal battles over this kind of stuff. Arktrees |
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- Posted by toronado3800 Z6 St. Louis (My Page) on Tue, Oct 30, 12 at 20:58
| Huh. Wonder if EAB is getting that ash? The situation does suck. I dunno what kind of sewer work needs done but I imagine properties with leaky sewers but established trees have less value than any property w/o leaky sewers. Like the guys said, get your paperwork together and know your rights. Hold up sewer work for no reason and your neighbors may take legal action on you though. |
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- Posted by wisconsitom 4/5 WI (My Page) on Tue, Oct 30, 12 at 21:19
| Farmboy, if it should turn out that there is legal recourse, and I'm passing no judgement on that, a table exists by which the value of "amenity trees" can be precisely determined. I'll not be at work tomorrow (Wed) but if I should happen to see that you are carrying this further, I can learn the precise name of that booklet and forward it. I think that, as has already been said, it all comes down to the attitude that prevails in the community. We do tons of projects that impact trees, and we bend over backwards to make sure all input is gathered from all stakeholders (No cheap innuendo please!). And it pays off hugely. Just depends on what kind of place you want to be. I agree that not much advance notice seems to have been given here. +oM |
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| Something I forgot to mention yesterday. It may not be the city, it could be the contractor. Contractors are notorious for getting outside the easement and doing damage (i.e. cutting out trees) because they either are not paying attention, don't care, or they think it will make their job easier. They also will have not second thoughts of lying about it, lying to you, or bluffing. If it does turn out to be the a contractor problem, then please make it hurt them. The only thing a contractor is usually worried about is $$$, and you take big chunks out of their pocket, and they will change their practices. Arktrees |
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| Farmboy1, I was curious about your thread as our extension service has a publication called 'Ornamental Tree and Shrub Evaluation' used to determine the value of larger trees. I began to read through it and found a logical formula, but the value basis for charging per square inch was from 1997! So, after looking around found this link to a Purdue University publication that had the same basic formula, but with square inch value based on the installed cost per square inch of a smaller tree of the same species quoted by a local nursery. Interesting approach. I don't have any thoughts on the legal ramifications involved in your situation but thought you might find interest in this publication. If judged by this method I sense that tree was worth some big bucks! hortster |
Here is a link that might be useful: Purdue evaluation
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| That's a very interesting read hortster. At the very least it gives an idea of the values of specific tree types. I was a bit sad my pin oak is only an 80 and my green ashes' are only a 60! ;) |
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- Posted by strobiculate none (My Page) on Thu, Nov 1, 12 at 3:25
| interesting read, really not sure about how subjective the entire process is. I find this amusing. we have lots of conclusions drawn...but basic facts, which may be pivitol, haven't been made clear...such as ownership. since so much of this question regards legal technicalities, remember what lawyers say about free advice. and there may be difference between ownership and a demonstration of harm. ark, I gotta ask...how many contractors do work for you, and then should you need more work done, are suddenly too busy organizing belly button lint to come back? construction of any kind and trees are not good bedfellows. my best advice is to plant something else as quickly as possible. |
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| strobiculate, I am not going to tell you what I do, however there is a reason I wrote out the long posts I did. Where I work we deal with these kind of issues FREQUENTLY. I can also tell you that contractor screw up these things constantly. And if you don't think they won't lie about it, well I just can tell you they will in a heartbeat. There is a reason that on any project of any size that "construction observers"are employed. Their whole job is to watch the contractors and make sure they do exactly what they are supposed to be doing. Do their job right and honestly, and these thing would not be needed. I also made it clear this is how it is in my corner of Arkansas, but after thinking about it, in adjacent states as well. Arktrees |
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| bsmith717, the more I review the Purdue approach the more I question it. The KS version lists pin oaks as 80% in eastern KS, 70% in central, and 60% in western (pH gets really high out there). Green ash is 80% eastern, 90% central and 100% western! And of course EAB will change the percentages on ashes if you are in an affected area. Same could be said for Asian longhorned beetle and its prey. It would be tough to keep the rating system current. hortster |
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| Wow, thanks for all the discussion and great advice! This is the kind of information that many homeowners and village boards should be aware of, but is difficult to find. Just too clarify, the trees were cut down before I made the post, so it's too late to save them. They were on the other side of the street two houses down from me, in front of a neighbor's house. The neighbor's wife was wondering if they had any recourse. I need to read through everything in more detail and will have more comments when I have more time. Ark, I know exactly what you're talking about with the contractors. Thanks again, this is very interesting, I think, for many of us! vince |
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- Posted by strobiculate none (My Page) on Thu, Nov 1, 12 at 21:04
| ark, I do not doubt your perception. I can tell you that homeowners are jerks of equal magnatude and every year there are more that I would not work for again, even if the outcome of turning down the job is fire ants eating my eyeballs. because people are basically self centered (expletives). my business is nearly entirely word of mouth. the only "advertising" I do is a single line entry in the yellow pages. and if a potential client calls whom I have never worked for before, I get them to tell me stories about the different people who have worked for them before. if the stories go as you describe, i'm too busy. because no matter how good I am; to you, i'm just another a@#hole. and you don't pay enough for me to work for you, regardless of the price. I do not need to be told how squirrelly contractors can be. but to imply that homeowners, or worse, municipalities (anything dealing with committees is worse), are not an equal bag of nuts is like my left foot (just not right). |
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- Posted by strobiculate none (My Page) on Thu, Nov 1, 12 at 21:22
| based on past experience, the are two possible courses of action. the one followed most commonly is: find a local nursery, get a price for two trees to be planted. get city to pay for it. or hire someone, most likely an arborist with more patches and certifications than you knew existed, to do an evaluation of the value of the trees in question, and the corresponding drop in property value. you may also need a real estate appraisal. get a legal eagle to pursue the case for the biggest check you can get. and for the value judgement: everytime I have been involved in this kind of deal it's left a rotten taste in my mouth. the people that go for option number two are strictly about the money. each and every time, I can tell who is going to go for option number two in less than a two minute phone conversation. |
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| strob, FWIW, my parents (both of them) worked as sub-contractors for 30+ years roofing houses. I know how people can be. But they were honest and did a good and fair job. Made nice money for hot hard work, and NEVER had any trouble staying busy not matter the economy.I know all about it on both sides. Have worked for construction companies, and have worked on the other side as well. It is more than my perception. I can't give too much detail, but I know contractors that cut trees that should never had been touched because they decided they were in the way, or they gave a chainsaw to an untrained worked and told them "go cut those trees down, and they cut them ALL down. I know of contractors who did not bother to read the plans and the specs to pour a very deep shaft and was not going to put the REQUIRED items in place that is STRICTLY required by code, contract, and specifications. They "claimed" that they had not seen it in the plans, when it was clearly spelled out in many places, and clearly shown in multiple drawings. Reality was, they were trying to take a short cut and the construction observer caught them. Again, construction observers would not be required if they could be trusted. To be sure there are good contractors, and sub-contractors. The guy that put in our flooring was first rate. Smart, knew what he was doing, made sure his guys were doing it all right, asked questions, and offered suggestions. Then trusted us with his original estimate because he couldn't find it anymore. Our Gutter guy was first rate as well, and by far the least expensive. But there are as many that you can't trust an inch. And anytime we have anything done to our house, someone is here keeping tabs on what is going on, but staying out of the way and letting them do their job. Arktrees |
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- Posted by strobiculate none (My Page) on Fri, Nov 2, 12 at 16:51
| gonna go chew my bananas. and sharpen my chainsaw, while the soundtrack to young frankenstein plays in the background. |
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