Resin

Actually, this is what I wanted -- I didn't want a Leyland screen that would get enormous after a relatively short time.

HOWEVER, I think large trees when dug and planted properly can be much better. I am always observing trees that are planted by commercial establishments, etc. Yes, there are a lot of failures, but I have seen 15 to 20 feet tall trees planted at a new mall (white ash, sugar maple, London plane, red oak, etc.) here and they are doing beautifully, in fact growing faster than most of the smaller trees I had planted at the same time. Mine will never catch up--not even close, and these trees are gorgeous in every way. I hate to admit it, but I am envious. If I had the money to spend on them, I would find out who planted these trees and have them come here are give me an instant arboretum/forest.

Yes, I know it is fun to nurture your own little trees--there is nothing quite like that pleasure, but....

Oh, yes, as for the green giants. I planted three this spring that were about 4 1/2 feet tall. They averaged three feet this first year. I doubt a 12 inch one would have grown as much.

--Spruce

Spruce, if you go to an "average" nursery and get small trees (note we're not talking seedlings, but in the case of GG's, maybe 2' tall) and larger trees (say 6') and plant them out in similar conditions, the 2' trees will almost always pass up the other trees given time. There are a few reasons for this, but the biggest is probably that the percentage of root reduction is much greater on the larger trees. Normal nursery stock of trees in the 6' and greater range usually have a significant percentage of their roots removed. This doesn't mean they won't grow, it just means that on average, smaller trees with most of their root systems can have a big jump on larger trees, missing 90 something percent of their roots. Then, their are emergency cases like Digsdahlia's where instant big trees are a must.

For me the bottom line of the bigger tree/smaller tree for planting issue is whether or not transplanting the larger tree will result in an unusual degree of transplant shock or some permanent damage. Here are a few of the factors:

1. Transplant shock. If this can be controlled, the larger tree is better. The long-term effects of transplant shock vary to some degree by species. Some trees weakened by transplant recover remarkably well. I have transplanted many, many Norway spruce of all sizes and with more, or less, of the roots lost. These trees recover fast as if nothing ever happened.

At least some of the oaks do not do so well. I have not transplanted very many oaks compared to NS, but I have seen them really lose vigor for a long time after a bad transplant. Some are best cut back and allowed to regrow from sprouts from the base. So here the smaller tree has some real advantages.

2. Is the larger tree pot-bound with girdling roots. I will take a small bareroot or dug tree any time.

3. In trying to dig and/or plant a tree that is large there is some risk of permanent damage. Cut roots can admit fungi, roots may be left tangled under the root ball, the leader may be broken, and sometimes excessive transplant shock can cause a tree with no vigor to its growth to grow crooked for a few years. Etc.

4. Can you handle a large tree and really transplant it properly? If not, I would say that even if the tree suffers no real damage that is permanent, the excessive transplant shock sets the tree back the equivalent of two to three years growth.

I was for a long time an advocate of smaller trees and most of what you say seems like a quote of things I have said in the past. Maybe now, because I am getting a bit "long in the tooth," so to speak, looking hard to find reasons why I can plant larger trees.

But for me there is a "catch 22." As I get older and lose my once considerable brute strength, I can't handle trees as large as I used to.

--Spruce

In my experience the growth rate of Thuja 'Green Giant' varies greatly depending on rate of soil drainage and how much winter sun/wind exposure it has to endure.

I planted eight Thuja 'Green Giants' in a row along and infront of my neighbor's termite infested deteriorating privacy fence. Out of all the one gallon potted 'Green Giants' that were about 18 inches tall when I planted them two years ago, only two have failed to grow just, taller than the fence. The smallest of the trees is planted at one end where a deep layer of builders sand was left when the neighbor's house was build. There is also a different neighbor's fast growing red tip photenia roots on the other side of a privacy fence which intersects the bad fence in that area. I have not been able to water the tree daily and so the tree seems to stuggle more from lack of the water and nutrients which either drain away or are robbed too quickly. I have been trying to compost around the area, and in my opinion that is the only thing which keeps the tree alive. One other smaller tree planted on the oposite end of the row has taken longer to establish. Its trunk has thickened nicely but it has only this fall begun to show a nice start of new top growth. I think the reason for its slow establishment is due to the fact that it was a replacement of an originally planted tree which died when my DH cut the bark badly around the trunk,
while he edged the yard. In addition this replacement tree I planted started out as a 4 feet tall potted tree and it is taking longer for its roots to establish enough for it to begin the more agressive 5' a year top growth.

My 'Green Giants' which are now growing at a rate of 5 feet a year are planted in an only 6 inch deep topsoil. Beneath that is a very dense and heavy clay hardpan. The only good thing about that is the fact that the native clay found in our are is a very dark color and full of nutrients which the roots can access when ever the soil gets a soaking rain or watering which softens the hardpan clay.

Any help would be appreciated.

T. x plicata is also a mistake for T. plicata. T. plicata is used for 'Green Giant' but it is a hybrid and not a pure T. plicata. Other hybrids are often sold as forms of pure species instead of as hybrids.

T. plicata x T. standishii 'Green Giant' is now commonly available here. Anyone thinking there is a benefit to planting this hybrid (outside of conifer collections) over a pure T. plicata in this, the native region of T. plicata need only go to a nursery where they have both displayed side-by-side and see which is the more attractive and pleasantly aromatic of the two.

Large potted stock is almost always root bound and for that reason alone, the smaller stock is preferable. If possible, always knock the pot off of the root ball of any nursery stock you intend to purchase to check the condition of the root system. If there is a mass of circling roots, don't purchase the plant.
My .02
Mike

I dunno Ron, it's hard to imagine anything more fragrant than my GGs. Just working around them brings out the strong orange aroma. The dried foliage makes a great pot-pourri for indoors.

Maybe straight plicata is even more so, but GG isn't lacking in that respect.

I'm not sure a vigorous form of T. occidentalis, such as T. occidentalis 'Aureospicata' would not actually be better for the same situations. In fact, T. 'Green Giant' was mistaken for a T. occidentalis cultivar for quite awhile.

Resin

My trees get a lot of morning shade and plenty of west sun. They seem to be well sheltered from winter winds. I have not yet and will not start until next spring fertilizing them. Since they are planted on a slightly higher part of the hard pan clay with shallow sandy topsoil lot, I did hand water them almost every day during the first two summers and at least 3 times a week in the winter. Only this last summer did I cut back on watering them so often, and opted to begin deep watering less often. Early on this last fall we had a dry spell which made them show some browning, but after noticing that I began to deeply water them with the lawn sprinkler. We also have recently received some nice slow soaking rains and the trees no longer show any early signs of browning.

I know that in the same 3 years, nursery growers could have gotten them to grow taller and more full. Instead, I wanted mine to focus more on root and expanded trunk girth development more than height.

The first year planted my trees they grew about 1 foot, the second year they grew about 1 and 1/2 feet, and this third year they have grown about 3 feet.

From now on, since I will be fertilizing them in the growing seasons, I expect them to begin growing in the 5 feet a year range for at least the next 5 years. After that it remains to be seen how much they continue to grow. I think it is a reasonable goal to ultimately see them grow from 40 - 50 feet tall, and because of their planting spacing maybe only spread about 12-14 feet. Not sure how long their ultimate growth height will take.

The upright fan leaves of these trees seem to shed snow thereby preventing enough snow to collect and weigh them down or break them off. Even freezing rain seems to have trouble building up on the leaf structure enough to weight them down.

One thing to remember with these trees, is you can trim them and the branches should continue to grow out, but any branch you cut or is broken completely off will not grow back. At the point a branch is removed the trunk remains bare. So if you see browning leaves, do not cut them completely off rather give the tree proper care and time to let the tree green that branch up again. The greening will show slightly and hardly noticeable at the beginning of this recovery process.

Remember too that the roots of this tree are fine and if kept water logged will easily rot. So especially while the tree is young, try your best to keep the soil moist while also properly drained. Soggy feet shocks the tree just as quickly and much as dry roots shock the tree.

Katrina1, Thanks for the tips! Holy cow! You haven't fertilized them at all in 3 years and they are that big already?! I am SO anxious to see mine grow like that now!!! Believe it or not, we have nearly the EXACT same situation. Mine are along the north side of a 6 ft privacy fence as well. There are other trees surrounding them that provide some wind protection too. However, where we live (on top of a mountain), it gets VERY windy sometimes, and our soil is chock-full of shale. But where mine are planted there is some good topsoil on top of that. So I am keeping my fingers crossed. I haven't been watering them much at all since planting them last month because we have been getting so much rain -- it rains at least once a week lately. I am getting tempted to put some Miracle Gro on them but not sure if that's necessary (or if it's a good thing or bad thing). Do you have any photos of your Green Giants you can post? I would love to see them! I go out every couple days to check if they are growing believe it or not (I know, I am nuts. LOL!). These are so skimpy though that it seems very hard to image them EVER filling out! How far apart did you plant them?

As is, they are not wide enough to create the screen affect I am wanting. In fact I was tempted, early this summer, to plant a staggered row infront of them. Resisted that temptation though, because I know in time they will spread enough, and then I will be glad I did not thicken the planting area with an added row.

As for the growth of mine and yours. My subsoil is a hardpan dark and fairly fertile clay. The better draining top soil consisting of the same clay mixed with a more sandy topsoil that is only, at most, about10 inches deep. My point, however, is that my trees most likely get more nurtients than trees planted on a mountain region would if there are lots of rocks and boulders not to far down in your planting bed. If so your area's drainage could be considerably faster than mine.

If those factors are true than you most likely should water more frequently than I, and definately apply slow release fertilizers that work well for evergreens. I am wondering if Osmocote or if the Espoma fertilizers, which indicate they are good for evergreens would be a better choice to use on them than Miracle Grow. I know that my acid loving broad leaf evergreens such as Holly do better with the Espoma "Holly Tone" than they do with miracle grow.

On the other hand, for one of my Green Giants planted almost 9 months later than the others and in a spot where more builders sand was left and thicky spread, I am considering lightly working in around the base and layering over the root area about 4 inches of nutrient rich compost. Something has to be done for that tree, because up to now; even though it is still alive, it has only grown a few inches yearly.

It is good your trees are protected from the drying winter winds as well as you describe. Hopefully that keeps the folliage of your trees from turning a rusty brown in the winter like it turns for my friend whose are planted along the south side of her privacy fence. If your trees keep their green better in the winter like mine do, they will be much prettier. I also think that because mine do not winter stress is the reason mine are growing faster and look better than my friend's, I just mentioned.

Any way I can tell by visual inspection if they are indeed Green Giants vs the non-hybrid source plants?

They have started "bronzing" from the cold as I read most Green Giant's will do.

Thanks!

Freedm2, Do the plants have a nice scent to them? I noticed that the Green Giants I have smell wonderful!

Dax

Thuja occidentalis 'Hetz Wintergreen' (Eastern White Cedar)

It was good that the backyard that I planted these two staggered rows in was deep enough to accomodate there mature spread as they mature.

the smallest I could get from the nursery were 4 foot tall, 7 gallon GGs in black nursery pots. I planted 6 in the first row and about 5 feet away from aand along a low chain length fence. Then staggered the other 5 in a row 4 feet in front of the first row. I expect them to nearly be spread together in about 3 years, and also to be about 10 feet tall then. The reason I do not expect them to grow taller than that in 3 years from now, is that the soil where they are planted seems to drain quite fast.

It is not sandy soil, but still drained quicky from the holes I dug for planting these trees. GGs like well draining soil, but also seem to need lots of watering episodes before they grow the best.

I have found that letting water drip from tiny holes in the bottom of a five gallon bucket seems to be the best way to water them, if one does not have drip irrigation installed.

In both Spring and fall of 07 they responded well to the Osmokote I gave them, by filling out their top growth better. Since I did not give them Osmokote this spring in 2008 their newer top growth is once again looking pretty thin.

At 9 to 10 feet tall they still have not grown together enough to provide the solid screen I would like.

Basically for people who really want a solid screen created with these trees, I would suggest planting them in an area deep enough where two staggered rows could be planted.

If there is not enough room for that, then instead plant more narrow growing potential trees which can be planted in staggered rows and can be planted much closer together when first planting.

The 11 Thuja Green Giant trees I planted and described in my Aug 07 response to this post receive strong north and south winds. I had to stake them because they otherwise keep getting blown over and uprooted. They have not grown in height much, in the almost 10 months since they have been planted. Still, they seem to be filling out nicely and are not showing a tendency for thin top growth.

I am surprised at how hard of time they are having. It seems like their roots systems are taking a long time to establish firmly enough in the ground for them to not be so easily uprooted and/or blown over by the strong winds.

The 50 GG I planted in in april 2006 are still all alive. Those in full sun have done the best. Those in shade have done little, but continue to show signs of growth. I have not fertilized them as of yet, but thinking maybe it might be time for a boost.

vizmark@yahoo.com

norwood ... the damage pictured .. is or might be two things ...

first.. sunburn .. is your yard EXACTLY the same sun as the place you bought them from? .. probably not ... nothing you are going to do about that ... unless you can rig up some shade ...

second ... is there water in the root zone ... whatever your watering protocol ... dig a small hole.. and insure that water is getting down into the rootball zone ... and then draining away ... too much water is as bad as too little ... there is no magic number of hours.. since only you have your soil.. and only you can figure out if the water is getting where the water is needed ...

the best time in north america to plant is early spring. or fall ... not july and august .... simply due to the heat.. and the potential problems you are seeing... if properly watered.. no matter what superficial problems you see.. they will survive.. if zone appropriate ...

a good layer of mulch to keep the soil cooler and damper would be money better spent, rather than fertilizer ....

and... from a bit further upon the replies... you really didnt expect 1 to 3 feet of growth the second year .. did you???? as noted.. patience ...

some further thoughts. and pix of my GG at the link below ...

good luck

ken

When planting shrubs in defined areas such as beds the height that looks right is 1 1/2 times the width of the bed or space at that point. A 2' wide strip looks good with shrubs 3' high in it, and so on. Above that you are starting to get into Too Tall and Overgrown territory. A 30'+ x 10' conifer hedge along a property line can be quite overpowering unless in a large and open area.

You should enter your comments on Garden Watchdog. That would be the most effective way to spread your message!

You should also check Garden Watchdog BEFORE placing your orders. Thuja Garden's rating is OK but not super. Next time order from a nursery with a great reputation. There are plenty of them out there.

the backyard is completely open. i need to plant the trees along the north side of my property.my neighbors both have a deck from their split ranch and look right into my backyard. i also want to make sure the trees are providing the screen throughout the winter.

any suggestions on the better tree for my situation and where to purchase?

I have read hundreds of posts thus far on this site regarding leylands, little giants, white pines, excelsa cypress etc. but I wanted to present my unique situation (how much coverage, location, timeframe etc.) and get feedback.

I really want something fast growing which has led me to the trees above. Leylands look pretty (from pics) but also scare me (from some of the pics you all have posted!). Thuja little giant seem to be a good choice and I haven't seen any real drawbacks except they won't grow as fast as Leyland? White pine was another fast grower I've seen but I'm not as crazy about the pyramid shape (less coverage up top which is where I need it.) Excelsa Cypress was something I saw but I don't really know much about it.

I will run the trees at least 30 feet wide along the property line to cover the garage from various angles but will likely want to run them another 30 feet to the left along the fence to cover up their house and backyard and pool area. I am willing to pay for at least 6 footers (maybe more) since the view is so bad. So based on the fact that I want fast screenage at least 18 feet tall, I live in PA zone 6, and I don't care what they look like 20 years from now, what would be your suggestion? Thanks!!

i would not plant a tree that can get 50 feet tall within 50 feet of my septic

you can research the accuracy of said comment yourself .... why would i waste time giving you an inaccurate answer??? lol

ken

i would not plant a tree that can get 50 feet tall within 50 feet of my septic
******

Ken, I think this issue is often exaggerated. In VA my septic was surrounded by 70-90' trees right up to the edge of the field -- an 80' Chestnut oak was 10' from the tank itself. The system never had a problem in 23 yrs, and was "cleaned" for the first time just before I moved.

The "bad" reputation for trees near septic systems comes mostly from the root-invasive trees like weeping willow, etc.

Rain2Fall