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| Several universities have something to say.
My understanding after reading some further experimental data this morning, is that if the tree is planted high enough, diving major roots are cut where they inflect, and the root flare is cleared of roots growing on top of it or above it, that circling roots under the root flare from potbound root balls need not be altered. Slicing, shaving, butterflying, manually pulling apart the root ball, did not increase root growth and the opinion seemed to be expressed a few times that only circing roots around the actual root flare were detrimental. What is anyone's understanding or experience with all of the new experimental data in? This is pertinent in my case because I have a pot bound magnolia that just ain't teasing apart too easy, and it's time to make a decision. It's been soaking all night in a very dilute tea. Ordinarily, I'd bring it back to the nursery, it's not too late. |
Follow-Up Postings:
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| Pull it out of the water, skip the soaks and the teas in future. The time of the year is poor for cutting magnolia roots. If it is so dense you can't work it open, maybe just take it back. Growers are never going to stop churning out plants with crap root systems if they never hear back from consumers, via retailers. There is a long way to go, with retailers sometimes afraid to complain to prima donna growers with coveted varieties that are liable to just stop supplying vendors who complain. |
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- Posted by lou_midlothian_tx z8 DFW Tx (My Page) on Thu, Nov 3, 11 at 10:57
| Mackel, it's just easier to go to Chambersville Tree Farm and buy one grown in rootmaker or roottrapper bag. :) |
Here is a link that might be useful: Chambersville Tree Farm
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| Personally I agree with the info you posted...I've planted well over 1,000 plants now. More importantly I agree with Ron. Take it back for the two reasons he outlined. |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Thu, Nov 3, 11 at 12:42
| i am surprised there is a TIMING issue.. but will defer to BBoy on that ... and i absolutely agree on return .... regardless ... in your post.. i see some hesitation in just doing the job ... you dont have to TEASE anything ... its not a babe ... you pull out the hose ... AT THE PROPER TIME ... put a pressure noozle on it.. turn it on full blast.. and just blast all that stuff off ... i would suggest you will do more damage.. spending hours trying to tease out roots ... than just doing it ... you seem to be handcuffed by fear of hurting it ... and in my world.. the good of getting rid of the problems.. and planting it in unamended soil ... it going to be greatly offset by any shock of totally bare rooting it ... many peeps are simply horrified by how hardcore gardeners.. treat their plants .... and it seems .. the worse you treat them... the better they end up doing ... e.g. in my sand.. i can walk up to a 2 foot tree... nearly pull it out of the ground ... i then snip the broken root parts.. and replant .. total job.. 10 mins ... i am not concerned about spending 2 hours digging/teasing every root ... etc.. i just do it.. and 99% make it ... now... current science, since you mention it .. with potted plants.. says to plant in native soil ... a big wad of potting media... stuck in native soil.. has a greater chance of killing a transplant.. than worrying about all the tangled roots ... which makes a better argument for just blasting it all off ... and then cleaning up any problems with weirdo roots .... [there are different parameters for heavy clay soil and ball and burlap ... so add some facts if you need that discussed] .... my point.. if i really have one.. lol ... is it SEEMS.. and maybe i am reading extra in here.. is that you are WORRYING ... and if you can'T get past worrying .. you will probably do more harm than good.. i usually call that 'trying to love them to death' ... odds are.. anything the same nursery has ... is going to be the same.... so you either return it for the $$$ .. or just do it the right way ... i dont know how you are soaking it.. but full immersion of the roots is not a long term thing.. trees do not appreciate that much water ... so dont leave it soaking for too long ... good luck ken |
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- Posted by mackel_in_dfw (My Page) on Thu, Nov 3, 11 at 12:55
| It's a Teddy Bear and I can't find anyone with one in the five gallon size I bought. I got it from North Haven Gardens in Dallas. If I don't plant this cultivar now, I'll be missing out on months of root growth, the summers are killer here, looking to establish a tree before that sets in. Here, now is the best time to plant a tree. The soil stays above forty degrees year round. Zone 8a. So teaching them a lesson they deserve is good, but at this moment, I am rather looking for a definitive answer or discussion of, "do circling roots under the root flare make no difference to long term health of tree"? They aren't packed in, but rather intertwined. I spent several hours teasing them apart yesterday, cautious to not break a root. Time is the problem. The potting soil is gone, for I am spraying the root mass with a shower mist while it is exposed to the air. |
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| I've always wondered that too. You'd think over time the roots would choke eachother out but what I've been told is that its the survival of the fittest regarding the roots. Alot of folks don't know this but the roots can actaully fuse together as one as they do in nature. However, in theory if there are two main roots under the flare one could choke out the other and in time the other chokes itself out. Just typing out load. Good look barerooting a pot bound Mag. If you want to keep it you'll have to remove visible encircling roots and do what Ken said with the water blasting on a lower setting as it doesn't work as well with plants with delicate fiberous roots, you'll just damage all the new feeder roots. This is what I've done and my plants are doing well. Here are few from my previous home...they are much larger now.
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| Re: careful not to break any roots. I can't find my photos at the moment, but I have a magnolia story about root trauma. I planted a Magnolia "Butterflies" in a narrow bed, bounded by concrete on 2 sides and a fence on 1 side. Fourth side a shrub, also not easy to get at. My neighbour planted that evergreen clematis on the other other side of the fence. Not being overly assertive, I neglected to fend off the intruder and the vine nearly killed the magnolia. I decided to move the tree. Hard to dig up - came up with about a 1-gallon root ball for what might have been a 12 foot tree at that point. I put this in the ground. Didn't do well over the ensuing two summers; got leaves, but only small ones. Dug it up again. Put it in a large container; babied it more. Leaves have been bigger in the past two years, and I still have hope I may actually see a flower someday. Moral of story: no, you don't want to butcher the rootball like I did and have a traumatized plant afterward. However, if you break a root, you know, your tree may survive. I look around my city at the hundreds of very large trees and imagine who planted them. Ignorant homeowners, and who knows how non-native plants got to this coast 100 years ago and how long it took. I'd be amazed if many of them were not pot-bound or otherwise traumatized when planted. Yet there they are. I think the research you are citing makes good sense. Karin L |
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| You won't be missing out on months of root growth. Almost nothing happens during the winter. The big root growth time is the fall. After that new roots are made in spring, and there is some progress during summer. Intact root tips elongate in fall. Fall is whenever the top has stopped growing and set buds, be this August or November. This results in hormones going down to the roots, that prompt them to stretch out big time - the one time of the year this happens. New roots are made in spring, the result of those same overwintering stem buds opening up. This is mostly an event of initiation rather than elongation. Mauling of roots will be responded to in the most prompt and timely manner during this period. |
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- Posted by mackel_in_dfw (My Page) on Thu, Nov 3, 11 at 21:04
| I got home late, the roots are probably more spaghetti like, as in limber, than last night. Didn't have time to examine them too much or plant, so took out root ball and placed into freshly aerated ditute tea solution. I'm using a couple ounces of Garret Juice per five gallons of water. Also have a Robin Holly I pulled apart last night as well. Hoping to wake up very early tomorrow, it's going to be a bit chilly, and get er done. Dann, Wilma, where'd you hide that corn jug? |
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| I like to slice them vertically up the root ball 3 or 4 cuts usually does this. Plant and water in. I'm not really into Howard Garrett's new method of bare rooting trees and soaking the roots overnight. I find that Howard's world is like Amway. He is on top of his food-chain. I find that once he learns about a new tree, the next day he's the self appointed expert. It's really hard for me to buy into that way of thinking. |
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- Posted by mackel_in_dfw (My Page) on Thu, Nov 3, 11 at 23:07
| Well, the current science says, your way does not increase root growth over doing nothing. Or running it over with a truck. (Look, it doesnt' matter what Howard says. Howard is just a man. True science leaves out ad hominems, for they are a distraction, and serve to confuse the issue, while all along, the corn jug lies there, at just an arm lengths away, Dricha, don't tempt me like that man, I've been doing sooo good...) Where is your method mentioned currently in the "state of the art" at any of the universities? How about a link? There's got to be some reason you think this method is superior, could you explain it, like you're talking to a sober person, Doctor Icha... Thankyou man. How do you know I'm not Howard? Man, lay off the Howard, he's just a good ole boy who never meaned any harm... |
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- Posted by lou_midlothian_tx z8 DFW Tx (My Page) on Fri, Nov 4, 11 at 0:55
| Sorry Dricha, I have to agree with mackel. A lot of times, I found "mainstream" science to be wrong when I delve deeper into things. A couple things that I am much better at than with plants... saturated fat and cholesterol consumption causing heart disease... turned out to be totally wrong after 30 years or whatever of hyping... Another one... sun scare to avoid skin cancer... turned out to be 4 trillion dollar a decade screw up. Vitamin D we get from the sun is so much important for our health than realized. The truth is that we don't really know anything... Or maybe it's purely excessively greed... My 4th edition of Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism by Groth did say that vitamin D cuts down risk of cancer but I never knew much about the process behind it because it didn't go into that till vitamin D council website did. A pharma knew about it back in 1980s.. A few years ago, American Cancer Society tried to discredit it because it would lose a lot of money in investment. There's no such thing as "true" science in college unfortunately. It's all about $$$... |
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| Science is a process of getting things right. We don't always get things right the first time, but simply discounting science, in general, is a fools game for sure. Properly conducted science is THE way we learn things. Without it we're left with unproven guesswork and myth. I've consistently found that those that flee science ALWAYS do so for reasons other than seeking truth. |
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| Oh yeah, there's another side to that coin too... Very frequently (not 100% of the time) those that suspect science is incorrect really just don't know or don't understand the science. |
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| One last P.S. .... My statements above are not meant to imply anything particular about roots/rootballs/other people's opinions about these subjects. They are just general info/statement. |
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- Posted by lou_midlothian_tx z8 DFW Tx (My Page) on Fri, Nov 4, 11 at 8:46
| Brandon, You're a bit naive about the last statement. It's like you chose to take blue pill instead of red pill... |
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| Mack, at the end of the day what do you plan to do? |
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| I'm with brandon on this one. Almost always one or usually a combination of the following, they don't understand it, don't want to believe it, don't want to work enough to understand it, or don't WANT to understand it. If you don't believe in science, then give up you home, car, medicine, clothes, food in your house, internet etc. Every last bit of it is due to science in one form or another from the past or present. Arktree |
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- Posted by mackel_in_dfw (My Page) on Fri, Nov 4, 11 at 11:56
| Most educated people are not familiar with scientific method, anymnore. It got beat out of general useage woth political correctness. Scientific method is a method, not a set of facts. The facts stand on their own, because they are observable and without dispute. They are very much separate from science, however, for they may not be relevant in any given hypotheses, though they appear compellingly so... I'm planting the magnolia right now, it's as good as it's going to get. On a sixth of an acre, a tree that lives for more than a hundred years, I suppose, deserves some consideration as it makes it's final resting place, within a tightly correographed symphony of greemness, north winds, and western sum. Back to work, and sober is I. |
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| Mr. Mackel, I did not see your link to this study either but I could be blind. Mine is just based on experience. I plant high and prefer to have the roots radiate out from the base of the tree like a wagon wheel. Keep in mind that some species root graft and some seem to choke themselves like Chinese Pistache. It varies according to species. Commercially there are thousands of trees planted where the workers just did the hole put the tree in and stake them. Most of them make it in spite of the latest research which they could probably not comprende. And believe it or not I like HG but don't agree with him on everything. Keep up the good work! |
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- Posted by greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a (My Page) on Fri, Nov 4, 11 at 15:32
| In-ground trees and container trees are certainly different in many regards, however the pruning of woody, girdled, or circling roots does rejuvenate the root-system - whether the plant is going into the ground or back into a container. Pruning roots encourages the roots to branch and to grow new fine root-hairs. And new tissues are more efficient at performing their functions. This is how bonsai practitioners maintain large, old plants on seemingly miniscule root-systems - due to constant tending, the root-system would actually be considered "young," being comprised of refreshed, juvenile tissue.
Josh |
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- Posted by ghostlyvision 10 (My Page) on Fri, Nov 4, 11 at 19:35
| "Most of them make it in spite of the latest research which they could probably not comprende." ~Dricha As another doctor (Dr. Ian Malcolm) so eloquently intoned - 'Life...finds a way.' :D Good discussion, hope your tree thrives, Mackel. |
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| No Lou, actually I was looking at some of the posts, above what I wrote, and saw that someone could potentially try to read more into my post than what I meant to say. Rather than taking the time to go through some elaborate explanation of how to apply what I said, I figured it was easier simply to note that what I was saying was meant in a more general sense in response to what you said (and in response to similar statements by others in various random conversations), rather than to comment specifically on the core subject of this thread. My thoughts were aimed more at how we think than what we think on the subject. Oh, and I try to stay away from the pills. The red ones or the blue ones may either one turn out to be as hallucinogenic as a bad jug of moonshine. LOL |
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| Mechanical Root-disruption Practices and Their effect on Circling Roots of Pot-Bound Tilia cordata Mill. and Salix alba L. Niobe found it online. The problem with doing nothing is that many times a large circling root is right at the base of the trunk and sometimes a third the diameter of the trunk. In many cases they will graft in as the trees grow. It does not look right to me. Mechanically if it was bad enough, you would think one side of the tree might be less stable too. |
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- Posted by mackel_in_dfw (My Page) on Sat, Nov 5, 11 at 11:33
| There is a profound mortality rate of trees planted in the suburbs and cities in modern times, by homeowners and tree service companies, alike. The U.S. forestry department reports data that few urban trees make it past thirty years, they don't just get planted and somehow make it, anymore. That's a beautiful quote by the doctor, but not realistic, a cursory view of any major city and one can find the vast majority of trees improperly planted. Just a cursory view. In the past, I believe we lived in a much more agrarian aware culture, trees were plnated when much smaller than what they are today, and general plant, soil and tree knowledge was much wider spread among the common person and professional alike. Nobody questions that circling roots around the root flare, need to be cut. It's the rest of the root ball and it's condition, that I try to make the crux of this thread. |
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- Posted by mackel_in_dfw (My Page) on Sat, Nov 5, 11 at 12:22
| There is a profound mortality rate of trees planted in the suburbs and cities in modern times, by homeowners and tree service companies, alike. The U.S. forestry department reports data that few urban trees make it past thirty years, they don't just get planted and somehow make it, anymore. That's a beautiful quote by the doctor, but not realistic, a cursory view of any major city and one can find the vast majority of trees improperly planted. Just a cursory view. In the past, I believe we lived in a much more agrarian aware culture, trees were plnated when much smaller than what they are today, and general plant, soil and tree knowledge was much wider spread among the common person and professional alike. Nobody questions that circling roots around the root flare, need to be cut. It's the rest of the root ball and it's condition, that I try to make the crux of this thread. |
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