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longtee81

Root Surgery Question on Princeton Elm

After removing about 5 inches of soil (4 at planting last fall, and the other inch this summer), I discovered this very strange circling root. This was a B&B tree but appears to have the same circling issues as a tree grown in a pot (as it most likely was at some point in its life).

I am looking for any suggestions on what I should do. I didn't want to do anything this first growing season, and was thinking that now or possible in the Spring might be a good time to act. I have a few pics with roots that appear to be circling. I marked it up with letters to make it easier to comment on, but I think "B" is the biggest problem and I think that has to go. How likely is this tree to survive and should i remove, leave it alone or dig it up and plant something without these issues?

Thanks for the help!

Comments (20)

  • longtee81 (Zone 5a)
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I should note that this is the 2nd tree I have had issues with from the same retail/wholesaler. I had another tree this summer with even more severe issues that I removed. (they didn't end up replacing it and offered me the same tree for 1/2 off and said we could hope that it doesn't have similar issues). needless to say I passed on that opportunity.

    http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/trees/msg0720383429502.html

    I took a picture of that tree after I dug it out and was quite surprised with the severity (and the amount of roots).

    Thanks for any suggestions!
    Steve

  • wisconsitom
    9 years ago

    Long, I think you have a pretty good notion of how this happened. The question is, what, if anything need be done about it. Here is where it gets sticky: For certain, the root you marked with 'B' is a classic example of a potentially girdling root. Thing is, not all tree species have a problem with this type of root formation. For example, one study showed that sugar maples and silver maples both developed as many, if not more girdling roots than do Norway maples. Yet it is only in Norway maples that we commonly see issues develop as a result of these formations.

    So I'm afraid I don't necessarily have a good answer for you. In some species, it seems the roots can simply fuse together, thereby precluding any troubles with sap flow, etc. Elms may well be such trees. I'm thinking I might opt to do nothing. I know that sounds wrong, but I think this elm might just not care one bit about having such a root formation present. anyone else know-do elms typically have issues with such root formations? I've been at this a long time and I quite literally have never once seen an elm come to its demise due to girdling root. Granted, that may be due to the fact that around where I live, elms died by the millions of Dutch elm disease. Yet, I maintain, I've not heard one thing about this with elms of any type.

    +oM

  • j0nd03
    9 years ago

    I'm with Tom on this. I might remove B for peace of mind but I think with this species it won't be that big of a deal long term to leave it as is. The important thing here is that the weird root formations are below the root/trunk interface. I think the roots will fuse but I have nothing scientific to base this on.

  • wisconsitom
    9 years ago

    I didn't see your second post when I wrote the above. That photo is typical of plants remaining in standard, non-"rootmaker"-style pots, for far too long. Nevertheless, you still might be able to just leave the new one alone, the comments about root self-grafting being the operative factor here.............unless it isn't, lol!

    +oM

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    9 years ago

    this is why.. i learned to avoid the instant gratification of large transplants.. in favor of smaller trees ...

    which i can unpot.. and unwind the roots ...

    the years you have already wasted.. could have turned a 3 to 4 foot tall transplant into a 6 to 8 foot tree ... etc ...

    i dont know what to suggest... cut off b ... wing it.. if it dies.. it dies.. but i cant give you any odds on that ...

    and after seeing the second pic .. i dont know if its worth worrying about it.. if the first is as bad as the one in the second pix ....

    ken

  • Embothrium
    9 years ago

    I wouldn't depend on either tree to make a satisfactory, lasting specimen.

    If the used car industry was operating on the same level as the woody plant production system we'd all be getting offered cars with frozen engines.

    Expensive grafted stock in particular is highly likely to be sitting on terrible roots. But at least in that instance there is some possibility of slowly burying the union over time and getting the scion to produce its own roots.

    When a kind of tree is one that is likely to do that.

    Of course, with combinations where the stock is supposed to be conferring a particular benefit such as dwarfing of the scion or protection of the scion from soil borne pests or pathogens that option is not available anyway.

  • longtee81 (Zone 5a)
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks all for the very helpful feedback!

    It has been a frustrating journey to find a nice elm tree. Ken has made me a believer in smaller trees and I have learned seek out and enjoy the progress of watching a smaller tree grow vs. having the instant gratification. I did try to locate the smallest stock that a local nursery was able to get and unfortunately what was done was done. In my early days, I think a lot of what drove me to buy larger trees was the belief that it had been trained by a professional and would not have the structural issues that a smaller tree would without proper pruning and guidance.

    I was able to replace the tree in the second pic (where you can see the bare roots), and did so with a 2 gallon tree ordered from an online site (they didn't have any smaller stock). What I found was even more shocking than the first (See link for video). They ended up replacing it with a different variety that had healthy roots, so I was happy from a customer perspective. The picture shows what it looked like after trying to repair. I still planted it, but am not sure it will survive.

    Steve

    Here is a link that might be useful: Smaller Tree (2 gallon) with issues

  • Embothrium
    9 years ago

    I am sure part of the problem is shoppers who balk at trees with the tops and pots in something more like the correct size relationship. Containers with enough capacity to not be holding hopelessly deformed root systems make the tops look dinky.

    Perceived value vs. actual value.

  • rina_Ontario,Canada 5a
    9 years ago

    Steve

    Do you mind if I ask a question about the roots of your tree on another forum & refer to your photos here?

    Rina

  • longtee81 (Zone 5a)
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Hi Rina, please feel free to link here anytime :)

  • wisconsitom
    9 years ago

    These root anomalies are exactly the problem with containerized production. We've discussed that issue many a time here. There are a number of attempts being made to circumvent this problem of circling roots but not all growers are on board with these new technologies. Plus, none of them are completely free of their own set of issues.

    The problem of growers, and especially retail outlets, not being able to sell trees with a proper root/top ration is akin to that same group of people insisting that a 4-foot pine or spruce be sheared up to some idealized version of what some consider to be the proper appearance of those plants, requiring subsequent correction when the buyer places these plants into their landscapes. Sometimes only time will fix the problems, other times there is more that can be done. But it's all unnecessary and not in sync with modern treecare thought. This too is emblematic of private installers and retailers. In my region, private contractors continue to lag behind-way behind-modern tree installation thought. One must pretty much stand on their necks to get them to do it correctly. Stubbornness and chauvinism abound...."we've always done it this way" being the operative principle. That's also why plants with root systems like this are still being foisted on the market.

    +oM

  • RugbyHukr
    9 years ago

    "I think a lot of what drove me to buy larger trees was the belief that it had been trained by a professional and would not have the structural issues that a smaller tree would without proper pruning and guidance."

    Do not look for proper structure and training from the common nursery (there may be exceptions). Nursery trees are usually not cared for in that manner. They are pruned for space management and ease of transport. It is my experience that the common nursery tree needs training over the first several years of its planted life after purchase.

  • alexander3_gw
    9 years ago

    Elms are known for forming root grafts with neighboring trees...one of the ways Dutch Elm Disease can spread through an alee of elms so fast.

    My hunch is that this tendency also would make them less susceptible to the problems associated with girdling roots, but I would be inclined to remove "B".

    Alex

  • wisconsitom
    9 years ago

    Bear in mind, wherever root surgery is performed, new roots will grow at roughly 90 degrees to where the cut was made. In this way, research has shown, attempting to remove girdling or potentially girdling roots can often lead to new girdling roots a few years down the road.

    I've yet to see conclusively that cutting any root on any tree species, to fix this problem, actually does any good. And I've been looking at this stuff for a long time. I remember being at workshops where somebody would have a tree's root system all dug up, with the goal being to "correct" this sort of thing, only to learn later that that particular tree had later been removed. I guess what I'm saying is, this root surgery is on pretty shaky ground, pardon the pun.

    +oM

  • Embothrium
    9 years ago

    I have no frame of reference for this concept of cut roots growing at 90 degrees and producing additional problems on specimens no longer being blocked by container walls. Roots always grow away from the center of the plant when not deflected by uncrossable barriers. All of my experience aligns with this, including having new root tips pop out of container-formed root shapes at planting time. Bonsai have the roots trimmed annually as a maintenance procedure, why does this not produce an incredible confused mess over time? In some cases the time being hundreds of years?

    Carl E. Whitcomb wrote in Establishment and Maintenance of Landscape Plants (1991, Lacebark Inc., Stillwater) that when study trees are dug up later and found to still have circling roots researchers are looking at the hardened, older roots that were already present at planting time. If most of a tree is still going around in circles some time after planting it is because it wasn't corrected at planting and was in such poor condition at planting that it did not make many new roots growing away from the center of the plant - or in any direction - after planting.

    We can see how new roots grow away from the center even when much of the old roots are deformed by looking at the second picture right here on this thread.

    This post was edited by bboy on Thu, Nov 13, 14 at 21:35

  • wisconsitom
    9 years ago

    "We can see how new roots grow away from the center even when much of the old roots are deformed by looking at the second picture right here on this thread."

    But in that case, we have no reason to think those initially offending roots had been cut. Means nothing in so far as my original statement.

    And while I can't dig up a source at this time backing what I said, I can relate years of looking at large tables erected at Wisconsin Arborist Association conferences and workshops wherein a great many failing trees had had their root systems exhumed for our viewing pleasure. Not all of these specimens had anything to do with girdling roots, but among those that did were examples of exactly what I point up-old cuts intended to "repair" the problem, leading directly to new instances of the same problem once again. Further, even if, as you say, roots are programmed to grow away from the plant's centerpoint, that in no way means they won't be lying in exactly the right spot to impinge on other plant parts as they grow and expand. Not buying it, B.

    +oM

  • longtee81 (Zone 5a)
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I think I will remove B. Any suggestions on timing? I am struggling between letting it recover from the transplant shock so it can start to establish before removing or taking care of it early. It was planted in the Fall of 13 so I am thinking now or in the early Spring would be a good time.

    Good link below (shows mostly mature trees though)

    Here is a link that might be useful: Good Article on Girdling Root Removal

  • Embothrium
    9 years ago

    Recent study.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Pruning Roots Affects Tree Quality in Container-Grown Oaks

  • longtee81 (Zone 5a)
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Excellent study bboy!

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    9 years ago

    . Ken has made me a believer in smaller trees and I have learned seek out and enjoy the progress of watching a smaller tree grow vs. having the instant gratification.

    ===>>>

    yippee....

    another convert to reality ... lol ...

    and the only way to do it .. IMHO ... is to mail order bare root stock .... mailing limiting size ... and then you can see the roots ...

    its the pots themselves that are the issue ... so either avoid the pot... or unpot.. and bare root them yourself....

    besides... pruning a 3 foot tree .. is a 5 minute ... twice a year job ... and is NOT rocket science ... and just a small investment in some good hand pruners.. and a pruning saw ... and usually.. by the time you need a ladder ... you are basically done ... [it usually takes you longer to get rid of the trimmings .. as compared to the actual pruning]

    ken