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Help with tree ID

Posted by green_go z5a (My Page) on
Sat, Nov 23, 13 at 21:43

I bought this tree online and it supposed to be a Korean Mountain ash.
It looks nothing like Korean Mountain ash to me and I am not sure what I've got? It is a very vigorous tree, in just one season it sent shoots almost 6 ft tall.
Please, check out the pictures below and help me to figure out what it is.

 photo DSC01226_zps165bc65d.jpg

 photo DSC01227_zpsb5edee1e.jpg

 photo DSC01231_zpsbb6d270d.jpg


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Help with tree ID

It has the look of a Common Hazel.


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RE: Help with tree ID

  • Posted by beng z6 western MD (My Page) on
    Sun, Nov 24, 13 at 9:08

Ahh....Paulownia-vine?


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RE: Help with tree ID

I see no real resemblance to Sorbus alnifolia (Korean mountain-ash) or Corylus avellana (common hazel). It appears to me to be Paulownia.


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RE: Help with tree ID

Leafs looks like paulownia, but what about the buds?


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RE: Help with tree ID

  • Posted by beng z6 western MD (My Page) on
    Mon, Nov 25, 13 at 9:18

Huggorm, I was kinda joking w/my guess. I agree -- the terminal bud doesn't look at all like paulownia, unless it's sprouting in the pic.


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RE: Help with tree ID

Without doubt this is a Tilia. Most likely T. x euchlora. Definitely not Paulownia.


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RE: Help with tree ID

The bud that appears to be sprouting is not the terminal bud. And, I don't think we're getting a very good look at the terminal bud; we're seeing it from a rear angel. I'm not at all convinced that it's Paulownia, but I'm also not at all convinced that it's Tilia. In all but the last picture, many of the leaves appear to me to be opposite (and, if so, not Tilia). Of course, in the last picture, they appear very much to be alternate (not Paulownia).

T. x euchlora leaves that I've seen are MUCH smaller (around 3"-4") than those in the pictures. We don't have a lot to go by for scale in the picture, but, if, you use the trim in the last picture and guess that it's 3/4", that would make the leaf in the last picture over 10". Also, many of the leaves are clearly lobed.


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RE: Help with tree ID

The incision at the point of attachment of leaf/petiole seems too deep for Tilia. Also, for that genus, I'd expect the base of the leaves to be a little more asymmetric. Is that a reddish stem coloration? Hmmm?

+oM


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RE: Help with tree ID

OK - how daft a suggestion is Morus nigra?


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RE: Help with tree ID

green_go,

Help us out some here if you can. You posted pretty good pics, but some even better ones would really help us out.

If you happen to have taken one of the underside of one of the leaves, please post that. Take a look and see if the leaves were opposite (directly across from each other on the stem) or alternate (leaves on one side come off the stem in between where the leaves on the other side are). If you can, post a close up of the buds. Finally, can you give us an idea of how big the leaves were?

We can surely figure this out if you can give us some first-hand input.
______________

Where's Resin? We need a giant spotlight with a tree shadow in the middle (think Batman) to get his attention.


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RE: Help with tree ID

I don't really think it's paulownia either. In a specimen this age, were it paulownia there should be distinct white lenticels on the young bark. There isn't. Also I remember when mine were that small, the leaves were quite enormous. Actually the juvenile leaves are larger than those of a mature tree. The poster needs to hop back on and supply some information. Are the undersides of the leaves pubescent? Are the leaves opposite or alternating, can't tell by the picture. A mountain ash...........it isn't. I get nervous when I see nursery stock online unless I can attach the name of a legitimate, inspected nursery to it. There are regulations in every state I know of concerning moving nursery stock interstate as to being true to name.


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RE: Help with tree ID

I can tell you exactly what it is.

An EYE SORE!!!

Every time I click on this topic I want to walk over there and pull it out of the ground LOL

Good luck with an ID =) I am rooting for ya!!


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RE: Help with tree ID

Thank you for trying, guys.
Unfortunately, no more pictures this year - it is all frozen here now, no leaves.
I don’t think undersides of the leaves were pubescent.
I don’t remember if the leaves were opposite or alternating, but I can go on the weekend and check the position of the buds if they are opposite or alternating.
And leaves were pretty big, but not huge - the largest maybe, the size of a hand (average woman’s hand, not man’s ). If I find dry leaves still in the yard, I will take more precise measurements on the weekend.


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RE: Help with tree ID

"Unfortunately, no more pictures this year...no leaves."

I realize the leaves are no longer there, but, if you had your camera, I bet you could get a close-up of the bud area and include a decent size patch of bark.

"...but I can go on the weekend and check..."

Ah, was hoping it was just out in the back yard.

"And leaves were pretty big, but not huge..."

How wide is that piece of molding/trim?

This is interesting that we have pictures as good as the ones you made and are still having issues with a positive ID.


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RE: Help with tree ID

Wow...quite a mystery. I agree it doesn't look like the typical species of Paulownia which is a weed in the eastern US. Those are always bolt upright when young. But I wouldn't rule out it being another species. There are only 2 nurseries where the OP could have mail ordered a Sorbus alnifolia, one of them is Forestfarm and they offer 2 rare (for now!) Paulownia species.
Closest thing it resembles in my garden is actually Idesia, from the Salicaceae. Those are similarly whippy when young, as is the related Poliothyrsis, (I have both) However neither of them look exactly like this, and I can't find anything else hardy in the willow family that looks exactly like this. Leaf shape and stems just don't seem right for Linden but I wouldn't rule it out either.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.forestfarm.com/products.php?params=plantNameGenus:Paulownia


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btw

"Where's Resin? We need a giant spotlight with a tree shadow in the middle (think Batman) to get his attention"

Thanks for the laugh!


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RE: Help with tree ID

Might just be some artifact of the photo, but those stems almost look squarish to me!

Green, when you can, by all means provide us a pic of the terminal bud and surrounding area. We should then at the least be able to confirm or rule out Tilia.

This is kind of fun!

+oM


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RE: Help with tree ID

  • Posted by beng z6 western MD (My Page) on
    Tue, Nov 26, 13 at 11:27

I'm bamboozled. It isn't paulownia (that has opposite or 3-whorled leaves) -- tho a paulownia leaf-mimic. Maybe some kind of weed or perennial/annual?

This post was edited by beng on Tue, Nov 26, 13 at 11:31


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RE: Help with tree ID

"Maybe some kind of weed or perennial/annual?"

I have been thinking along these lines since the topic first appeared! But why waste the energy on on those buds if not to flush out with them next year?

This post was edited by j0nd03 on Tue, Nov 26, 13 at 12:28


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RE: Help with tree ID

This thing has bark. It's woody, not a herbaceous perennial or annual.

Clearly the Morus nigra notion was too daft to contemplate.


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RE: Help with tree ID

Is this an ebay buy, or from a legitimate nursery? Email them the pics and ask them what in the hay they really sent you. If it's a legit nursery, they'll know. I've run nursery crews, and have run into help who were illiterate, and also those who don't pay attention, and watched them not even notice when they move from one variety to the next, and continue to stick labels into pots with their minds off in outer space, until they run out of whatever label they happened to have in their hands. Then please pass it on to us. I'm curious.


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RE: Help with tree ID

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Tue, Nov 26, 13 at 15:59

Stem structure (including buds), stem orientation and leaf details not Paulownia. Arching, tapering stems and bulbous buds like Tilia, but don't know which Tilia would have quite that kite-like leaf shape, buds quite that big and protruding*

Could be some less familiar E Asian thing that isn't jumping out at us because it is less familiar. China in particular has a lot of genera and species that are not what many of us have seen repeatedly.

*But see at link below

Here is a link that might be useful: Bing PIctures of Tilia Buds

This post was edited by bboy on Tue, Nov 26, 13 at 16:04


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RE: Help with tree ID

I think it's a pole bean, fordachrisakes!

+oM


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RE: Help with tree ID

+oM, I'd give a dollar to see you say that on a video or something. ROFL.

When it's cold, rainy, and about to snow, what else are we to do except postulate on what this mysterious, woody, possibly oriental pole bean thingy is?


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RE: Help with tree ID

The tree is on my backyard, it is just difficult to find the opportunity to take pictures during the week: in the morning, I am usually in a hurry to get into my car and depart to work and when I come home from work, it is already dark outside. I will make more pics of bark and buds on Saturday. Found one more pic, but not much details either:
 photo DSC01230_zpsb717678b.jpg


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RE: Help with tree ID

Well, that does help a little. Looks like the leaves are definitely alternate. It was a toss up, at least for me, with the other pictures. So, Paulownia is eliminated, for sure.


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RE: Help with tree ID

Just a wild guess here. Actinidia
Kiwi Vine?
Mike


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RE: Help with tree ID

See, we're edging towards a vine of some type. I know lots of trees show up with silly bamboo stakes, etc. but this thing needs that support, indefinitely I'd guess!

Uh...some kind of grape?

+oM


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RE: Help with tree ID

If we are talking vines, the genus "aristolochia" might be worth mentioning. But I still like beng's "paulownia-vine" most, LOL


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RE: Help with tree ID

I will put money on it being Tilia. When young and vigorous, the leaves can be bigger and of different shape than what you see on older trees. I grow both Idesia and Poliothyrsis and it isn't one of those. A close-up of the buds will confirm it is Tilia. Who wants to put money on this?? :)


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RE: Help with tree ID

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Wed, Nov 27, 13 at 13:03

Possibly one like Tilia platyphyllos. The boldness of the leaf outlines (including heart-shaped bases of some leaves) could be due to juvenility; there are also variant cultivars grown, with abnormal leaf outlines - although I have no particular one in mind that I know to exist and would also fit this specific instance.


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RE: Help with tree ID

Green, you're in Z5. Next year's buds should be completely formed and visible. Next opportunity, let's see the terminal bud, and put this thing to rest!

+oM


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RE: Help with tree ID

What about sambucus, is there any elder cultivars with non-compound leafes?


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Here are some more pictures:
 photo DSC01316_zps59b0c916.jpg
 photo DSC01315_zpsfb2f88c4.jpg
 photo DSC01310_zps49d453ba.jpg
 photo DSC01309_zps60bbd80d.jpg
 photo DSC01304_zpsa8f3d893.jpg
 photo DSC01303_zps7138e211.jpg
 photo DSC01302_zps55c70ee3.jpg


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RE: Help with tree ID

I'll stick to my original assertion that this is Tilia. It is a little unusual in that the leaves were a bit larger and slightly different shape for most, but fits for the genus overall.


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Yep, I'd say that settles it.....to genus.

+oM


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RE: Help with tree ID

It sure look like tilia. I have never seen such vigourus growth from that genus though, but it might be normal for a hybrid


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Well, if I planted a mountain ash and found out I got a tilia instead, I wouldn't be disappointed. They're nice trees.


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RE: Help with tree ID

Thank you for narrowing it down. I went to the nursery catalog where I got the tree from and the only Tilia they are listing is 'Redmond' Linden. I wonder if this is what I have….


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RE: Help with tree ID

More or less, it does look like "Redmond", a decent American linden cultivar. We plant lots of those as street trees.

I can't say for sure if this is the case here, but Am. linden generally produces lots of suckers at the base of both live trees and cut-down stumps. If the latter, that amount of growth is not at all unusual.

+oM


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RE: Help with tree ID

Your pics show what commonly happens when the scion (Redmond in this case) dies and the rootstock sends up aggressive shoots to replace the lost top growth. Impossible to say with the pics, but if it is so, your remaining tree would not be Redmond but whatever rootstock they used (probably our native t. Americana). Show us an up close pic at the base of the tree :-)


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RE: Help with tree ID

...in which case, you may want to let just one stem grow and cut the other at ground level. This is a very sucker-prone species, so you will need to occasionally remove more, but it's not a difficult task. And FWIW, regular basswood, AKA American linden, is every bit as good a tree as the named cultivars, IMO. All linden have a tendency towards a conic overall growth form but in the cultivars, this has been exaggerated to what I consider an unnecessary degree. A matter of taste.

+oM


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