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| So I was in Sydney, Australia a few years ago and went to visit the blue mountains. Apparently they have a very rare stand of Wollemi Pine hidden somewhere in a secrete cove. Anyway I learned they are an ancient species of conifer dating back to 200 million years. Recently I found out that they are hardy to zone 7a. Anyone have one? I might give it a try in a south facing microclimate. |
Follow-Up Postings:
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| "Recently I found out that they are hardy to zone 7a" It isn't. It is only hardy to zone 9. Resin |
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| There are a number of reports of hardiness to 10F (approximate z. 7b/8a). |
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| Not true its Z8 hardy anyone got a photo of the Kew one? |
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| Short-term results in a particular location does not establish long-term hardiness there. To be hardy in Zone 8 something has to be hardy below 10F, hardy in Zone 7 below 0F and so on. 0-10F, 10-20F etc. are the average minimum temperatures, not the coldest it gets in each zone. |
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| The way I understand it is that today, the Araucarians are unique to the "Antartic Flora". Could I ask someone to elaborate on the following from Wikipedia: The araucarians achieved maximum diversity in the Jurassic & Cretaceous periods, when they were distributed almost worldwide. At the end of the Cretaceous, when dinosaurs became extinct, so too did the Araucariaceae in the northern hemisphere. |
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- Posted by greenthumbzdude 6 PA (My Page) on Tue, Nov 13, 12 at 21:16
| I got the information about 7a zone from Dave's Garden. |
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| It isn't zn 7 hardy. The National Geographic Society was brazenly irresponsible to ever suggest it might be. A tree in DC sustained moderate injury after the upper single digits. A little colder and it would have died. Since such temps would occur in a bad zone 8 winter as BBoy points out, that argues for more like zn 8b or 9 as Resin said. Besides the trees are dying on the east coast even when the cold isn't killing them. Probably from a root rot that thrives in wet, hot soil. Consider the related monkey puzzle and how many hundreds of them, probably, have died on the US East Coast over the last 100+ years. They usually die in the summer when young. A few genetic outliers have bucked this trend, probably because of a random gene mutation that confers an ability to resist such conditions. But there's no "population" of Wollemis in which to find disease resistance. There is one, sterile clone. Therefore this is only going to be a tree for maritime and moderate summer subtropical climates. Seattle to San Diego, mild parts of Western Europe including the milder coastal parts of the UK, NZ of course, much of inhabited South Africa (J'burg is not very hot in summer, nor is Durban), coastal South America, Kunming, etc. Someone in Florida IIRC has successfully grafted it onto a more root rot resistant conifer. This might help, and it might not. Sydney, contrary to the impression of some Americans, is not at all like Florida and is more like Cape Cod in summer and Charleston, SC in winter...without the extremes of course, being basically frost free. And the area where Wollemi was found is inland and slightly elevated, and probably has somewhat cooler nights but still no worse than zn 9b in winter. |
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- Posted by formandfoliage 9b (Sunset zone 15) (My Page) on Wed, Nov 14, 12 at 9:14
| We have them here only in the warmest microclimates of the Bay Area. That may be coincidence, but I've only seen them in Occidental and Berkeley, on the warm side of zone 9 (Sunset 17). |
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| Specimens I've seen at Humboldt State University - home of a small but significant collection of rare species conifers, by the way - look as though the uppermost tops froze back in a recent winter. In a sheltered position between buildings, with a small grove of coast redwoods (native there) close by. In a town that is right at the ocean, will be getting maximum exposure to its moderating influence. |
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- Posted by salicaceae z8b FL (My Page) on Wed, Nov 14, 12 at 22:38
| Yes, i have it grafted on Agathis robusta. It is surviving much better and looks better than on its own roots, but the jury is still out. |
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- Posted by philinsydney1 (My Page) on Thu, Nov 15, 12 at 5:06
| There are some wollemi pines growing outside the Smithsonian in Washington DC. This photo is from 2009: http://www.flickr.com/photos/dctropics/4057402490/ |
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| Thanks for the update salicaceae. I don't think I'm being too much of a smart alec to point out that Washington DC gets just a little colder than z10 Arcata California! So, I doubt absolute cold caused the problem there at HSU. Maybe there was an odd freeze following a period of mild weather...but that's nothing it might not see in its native environment in the past few millennia. Any freeze is unusual in that climate...in DC, every average day in winter freezes at night. Maybe it was heavy ganja fume damage. |
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| Btw here's an updated picture, in 2011. If they'd made it that long, they surely survived last year's winter which was the mildest in 16 years. But still the 5 winters they survived up to 2011 were mild to average, not average to cold. These are on the south side of the "Castle" so very protected from drying winds. |
Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.flickr.com/photos/dctropics/6060234275/
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| Those are my photos. The Smithsonian wollemias have been in the ground for 5 or 6 years. This has been a string of very mild winters for our region, plus they are planted in the heart of the urban heat island so I doubt they have seen any temperatures much lower than the mid teens. I have no idea what their long-term prospects are but they have done well so far. Here are more recent ones from just a few weeks ago:
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| Hello Johnnieb The two Thujopsis in that last photo look different |
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| Sorry, Thujopsis and most similar genera usually fly under my radar. I didn't even see those plants when I was taking this photo! |
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| "I got the information about 7a zone from Dave's Garden" Wrote to them; it is corrected now Resin |
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| FWIW the original marketing literature from "Wollemi North America" - the company which tried to trademark the word Wollemi and then scurrilously threatened the Quail Botanical Garden for using it without "permission" - said the trees "could be grown in zone 7-11". I believe this was either repeated on the National Geographic website, or that there was a link to the defunct website for "Wollemi North America". In any case I remember a lot of people back then believed that they were hardier than they really were, both on gardenweb and on other sites, and I had to warn them they had been given false hope by the marketing scum. If you look at the price Nat. Geo was charging for what was basically a 2nd year rooted cutting, someone was making A LOT of money off these things, and I doubt most of it went to conservation. |
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- Posted by widdringtonia 8a (My Page) on Thu, Nov 22, 12 at 18:06
| I know this is off topic for the OP, but I can't let the comment about summer temperatures in Johannesburg and Durban go unremarked upon. True, Jo'burg doesn't get *that* hot. But it'll still regularly hit low and mid 30s (celcius, obviously) in summer. Pretoria, just a little bit further north, but at considerably lower altitude gets hotter. Of course the lack of humidity in Jo'burg makes a difference too. I'll walk around in Jo'burg in mid-summer with 30+C weather unphased, when I won't even venture outdoors in Raleigh, with the same 90+F temperatures and near 100% humidity. But to say that Durban doesn't get hot is a mistake. Durban has a true sub-tropic coastal climate. And it gets hot and humid... for most of the year. Durban doesn't even get frost, which Jo'burg does. Jo'burg has a nearly unique climate due to its latitude and altitude. I miss the climate there. Back to your discussion about Australian pines. :) |
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| USDA 7 is average lows of 0F-10F. This means that there will probably be some times when it gets below 0F in many locations so designated. Sometimes multiple degrees below 0F. To persist in these places as an evergreen tree, that does not burn up, defoliate completely or die back/down a specimen needs to be able to take such temperatures, without incident. |
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| I don't even know why I'm bothering with this triviality, but, I can't resist proving I was correct. As you say...Jo'burg doesn't get the combination of heat, humidity, and heavy rainfall that the US SE gets. It would not seem hot to someone from the SE, which is all I said. Nights in winter always average < 60F and it's at almost a mile of elevation. Dry heat is different and that's why many forbs and monocots from Australia cannot grow in the US SE. (or ones from Kwazulu-Natal!) As for Durban, yes, it is very muggy and the nights are warm. But the average monthly high for the entire year tops out at only 82F/27.5C in the summer. That's about as hot as Boston. Average high for, say, Charleston SC, is 91F/33C - and that's a "cool" coastal city in the SE. It would not surprise me if a Wollemi could survive in Durban and not in the US SE: they grow in Brisbane which is about as warm as Washington, DC, in summer but cooler than the US SE...thus closer to Durban. I mentioned Durban because Americans sometimes have the impression any subtropical-frost free but moist (not LA) city is going to be hellishly hot like Florida. The majority of them are not. |
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| Oops I meant "nights in SUMMER" for Johannesburg. Jo'burg is actually cooler in summer than North Carolina's mountain retreat town of Asheville. |
Here is a link that might be useful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannesburg
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- Posted by nikkie_in_toronto (My Page) on Tue, Nov 27, 12 at 16:35
| A bit off the subject, but I recently purchased one from the west coast to try in a garden in downtown Charleston, SC. It was suggested as a possibility to me on a different forum. Not a sure thing, just a possibility in that a lot of the gardens in Charleston have more protected "shady" situation and sandy/well drained soil. From a lot of the reading I have done, It seems like its a combination of the extreme heat on the coast and very poorly drained soil. I dont know what the long term survival will be; i'm happy with a few years if I can get it, but thought I would at least try. I've read about wollemia surviving in parts of the coastal south (south of DC), but curious if anyone knows any that may have survived for more than a few years and under what conditions those that survived are in...? |
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| Sandy soil seems to delay the inevitable. Sooner or later a heavy, warm summer rain will lower the dissolved O2 in the soil or whatever it is that triggers the outbreak of Phytophthora or whatnot - then it kills the plant. There's a reason we don't see the classic UK/PNW rhododendron hybrids in the coastal south, no matter how sandy the soil. It's obviously not that the winters are too cold, it's that the summers are too hot & humid. I just say this so that you don't have unrealistic expectations. I wish your plants that best but if you really want it to survive long term, the best chance is to do what Salicaceae did and graft it onto a subtropical conifer known to grow in the SE. |
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| BTW - I don't know how hardy Agathis is, but if it will graft onto that, I presume it will also graft onto Araucaria angustifolia. That grows very well in the South. I wouldn't call it readily available in the trade, but it's there if you know where to look. www.desertnorthwest.com sometimes has them. |
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- Posted by nikkie_in_toronto (My Page) on Tue, Nov 27, 12 at 23:10
| David...thank you for the information. I did sort of figure prospects werent that good, but its fun to try things.I have killed so many plants in my days. I figure that you win some and you lose some. I have collected various conifers "up north" and wanted to try a few in the South. I started out with this wollemia along with a cupressus cashmeriana and cathaya. I still am trying to find some other more unusual conifers that may be adaptable to the south that arent widely grown up north, such as metasequoia, taxodium and various juniperus that appear everywhere north and south. Would love to find some type of araucaria for charleston. |
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| What conifers do they have in the Raulston Arboretum? |
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| Help yourself: |
Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.ncsu.edu/jcraulstonarboretum/horticulture/current_plantings /current_plantings_advanced_search.html
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| nikkie wrote would love to find some type of araucaria for Charleston Can we assume that you mean Charleston SC? In that case check out the 36' high Arauacaria angustifolia in the Atlanta Botanical Garden: http://significanttreesofgeorgia.uga.edu/araucariaangustifolia.pdf Also, check out my gardenweb thread and see the beautiful Monkey Puzzle at Norfolk Zoological Park. |
Here is a link that might be useful: My Monkey Puzzle Thread
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- Posted by nikkie_in_toronto (My Page) on Wed, Nov 28, 12 at 10:20
| It appears that the best araucaria, would obviously be angustifolia. I have seen very nice specimens at Magnolia Gardens in Chstn as well as one of the public squares in downtown Savannah. Interesting list from JC Raulston Arb. I am surprised to see Calocedrus decurrens, Cupressus macrocarpa as well as Sequoia sempervirens. I started growing a few things in Toronto many many years ago, and eventually moved to the Cleveland Ohio area and have (over my many years) collected various cultivars of Cryptomeria japonica, Cedrus atlantica and deodara, Cupressus glabra, Sequoiadendron giganetum and others including Cunninghamia that were allegedly not "cold hardy" yet have lived over two decades for me here along Lake Erie. This will probably be my last garden, at this age, and is a totally new experience for me dealing with heat over cold. I'm certainly interested in learning and any information you all would have is so greatly appreciated. N |
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| >Help yourself< I wasn't asking for my benefit. |
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| NB that not every tree at the Arboretum is exactly thriving. I suspect Calocedrus has a southern limit on the US East Coast, and that limit is probably right around the NCSU arboretum. I don't remember what their plant looked like. |
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| by which of course I mean Calocedrus decurrens. The Taiwanese one will pick up where the Californian one leaves off, and possibly grow as far south as Orlando. |
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| >Help yourself< I wasn't asking for my benefit. I'm sure everyone else reading the thread felt welcome to follow my link. |
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- Posted by nikkie_in_toronto (My Page) on Wed, Nov 28, 12 at 14:11
| I read Sams monkey puzzle tree link. That is a beautiful specimen in Norfolk VA. I've heard of araucaria araucana doing well in the upstate of SC, but I am wondering what its southern limit is? I only have room for about 5 or 6 "large" specimens. I hear people say that they are growing a "monkey puzzle tree" as far south as NOLA, but I think they are confusing araucana and angustifolia or even perhaps cunninghamia... |
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| I'm a little surprised to see this tree in Norfolk. NB that that the botanical garden there DOES NOT have one, and they have certainly tried them. There was a guy named Fred Huette who tried a bunch of rare & exotic plants in the 60s-70s, and I have no doubt he would have tried some monkey puzzles although I don't specifically remember if his book mentioned them. A friend of my family knew him and I suppose I could always contact him to see if he remembers that some were planted. IN ANY CASE I think the Norfolk tree is one of the lucky survivors I mentioned. These trees just hate east coast conditions...end of discussion. The fact remains they do have an absolute southern limit on the East Coast (as well as a northern one, obviously), and in Charleston you'd be totally wasting your time with it in my opinion. They can die on you when they get up to 10' or so...that happened to a tree in Columbia, MD. Then you have a tedious prickly carcass removal job. Just get an A. angustifolia that far south. I think they are more picturesque when they got large anyhow, and they grow faster.
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| Here's a Parana pine I started from seed in 2000, 11 years later. This is in a zn 8 part of the Gulf South. As you can see the growth rate is excellent, especially since its first 3-4 years were in a pot that got passed-along several times! (this is a fair use of someone else's photo. I removed a person but you can see her arm) The seed was from Chiltern but they haven't had it in many years since then.
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| Nice and bushy. West coast ones I have seen were not nearly as striking as monkey puzzle, look rather more like Cunninghamia instead - as does yours. Biggest I have seen is at San Francisco Botanic Garden. Zonal denialists like to push this as a hardy species but I know of no lasting examples of any serious size at my latitude. A small one I planted on Camano Island a few years ago is still alive but creeps along. Jacobson, North American Landscape Trees (1996, Ten Speed Press, Berkeley) reports that one in Montecito was 67' tall by 1992. |
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| Thanks. Jacobson rocks. I love that book. I wonder how long it takes them to develop the upturned umbralla tops. A tree I saw in Sonoma County wasn't there yet and was clearly old than this one. |
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- Posted by nikkie_in_toronto (My Page) on Wed, Nov 28, 12 at 21:30
| Beautiful tree, David. I will definitely try that one if I can find a source for it. Thank you again! |
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- Posted by salicaceae z8b FL (My Page) on Wed, Nov 28, 12 at 23:58
Here is my Wollemia I grafted onto Agathis robusta. It is much bigger now..
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| "Here is my Wollemia I grafted onto Agathis robusta. It is much bigger now" Very weak-looking stem, though. It badly needs some more diameter. Etiolated? Resin |
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- Posted by salicaceae z8b FL (My Page) on Thu, Nov 29, 12 at 9:19
| Yes, the root stock was slow to catch up with the scion growth. After being placed outside in more sun and such, it is catching up, but graft inocompatibility may be an issue in the future? This photo was taken during the winter when I had it in the greenhouse, and at night. |
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| The yellow new growth might be a problem with minerals in the soil or water. |
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- Posted by salicaceae z8b FL (My Page) on Fri, Nov 30, 12 at 18:09
| Yes, we had some nutritional issues for a while - bad potting mix. It is green now. |
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| Here's the neat thing about the Wollemi and closely related Araucariaceae, they not only survived the breakup of Pangaea but managed to hang on after the K-T extinction event which drove the dinosaurs extinct and ended the Cretaceous. That's the fantastic part of their story which is missing from this thread. |
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| "they not only survived the breakup of Pangaea but managed to hang on after the K-T extinction event which drove the dinosaurs extinct and ended the Cretaceous. That's the fantastic part of their story which is missing from this thread" errr . . . . so did everything else that we see around us. No great shakes! ;-) Resin |
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| I've been reading A Natural History of Conifers by Aljos Farjon. Maybe an understanding of WP's native setting would be helpful. The Wollemi Wilderness consists of elevated plateaus of Triassic sandstone. WP's companions are coachwood Ceratopetalus apetalus and sassafras Doryphora sassafras . Contrast this with the 13 species of Araucaria growing on New Caledonia. The distribution maps of these species overlaps the ultramafic soils where nickel mining occurs. Araucarias growing in Chilean Cordillera's volcanic soils are likewise ultramafic however the elements in this case are Iron & Magnesium. Here is Table 4 from the book. This shows the ancient lineage of Podocarpaceae & Araucariaceae traced back to the Triassic which makes them unique among extant conifer families.  |
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| Last Thursday the BBC reported that Wiltshire College's WP is forming cones. As the species is monoecious I suppose this means it could actually produce viable seed? |
Here is a link that might be useful: BBC Article
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