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| Eventually in a couple of years I plan on buying several acres of farmland. I would like to recreate eastern old growth virgin forest. How would I get the trees to grow to their max potential in a short amount of time? What kind of trees and shrubs should I plant? I have always been fascinated by historical accounts of massive trees that used to exist in eastern forests. |
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- Posted by alexander3 6 (My Page) on Thu, Dec 22, 11 at 23:42
| Sounds like the project of a lifetime! Are you looking to do this in Pennsylvania? If so, what part of the state? Lots of trees to choose from, but I believe American Chestnut used to be a dominant species in the eastern forests. Of course they were all but eliminated by chestnut blight. I believe there are American/Chinese chestnut hybrids that, after a few generations of backcrossing to the American parent and selecting for blight resistance, are 15/16 American, but have good resistance to blight. I'd certainly look into getting some of those in there. I'd also look into getting a couple of each of the most dutch elm disease resistant cultivars of American elm. Your local library or bookstore probably has a book about the trees of Pennsylvania. In terms of getting them to grow as fast as possible, pick some good land! In addition to that, look into native nitrogen fixing shrubs and trees that you can plant along with the others. They'll continuously add nitrogen to the system, which might speed things along a bit, although I have a feeling I might get some disagreement about that. Alex |
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| It sounds to me like you are approaching this project with the wrong expectations. Old growth forests occur only after a LONG period of time (hence the name). Planting a bunch of fast-growing junk trees or pushing growth excessively (which you can only do to a limited degree) is not the correct approach! If you are in a hurry, I'd suggest you look for well-established forested land and work with/preserve that. |
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| Agree with Brandon. I don't think your expectations are realistic. |
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- Posted by mainegrower Z5b ME (My Page) on Fri, Dec 23, 11 at 5:53
| As brandon7 and famartin have pointed out, time - as in centuries - is the crucial element in old growth forests. That does not mean, however, that reforestation of farmland would not be a worthwhile project. You'd be creating something of real value for the future and supplying valuable habitat for wildlife in the shorter term. Your County Extension Service and/or state forestry department would be your best source of information about species of trees adapted to specific areas. An old growth forest could have been dominated by evergreen species or mixed hardwoods or a combination. As far as growth rates, slow growth produces superior trees. Old growth timber is so valued precisely because it grew slowly producing denser wood. The American chestnut, btw, accounted for about 20% of the Eastern forest before it was effectively eliminated by blight. |
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| Start with early successional colonizing species appropriate for the habitat. As they grow, you may want to start introducing other habitat appropriate species (instead of letting them come in naturally). If you're looking for rapid restoration, you may want to remove some of the colonizing trees to make room for the climax species. Introducing shrub and ground layer species will also help the biodiversity mix. There are whole books written on restoration....too complicated to describe in a single post. |
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| Old growth stands here consist of a mix of trees that shot up and those that are stunted, often due to the presence of the larger trees that got a break and were able to grow large. The large size is a result of being able to make vigorous growth for a long period of time, even if they are growing slowly later in life. And I'm talking about individuals of the same species, on the same site, not cottonwoods vs. conifers. The biggest, most prime conifers are typically those that happened to end up near year-round sources of water (and nutrients) that enable them to grow more rapidly and larger than those on adjacent drier ground. In my region proximity to open water also confers a degree of fire protection that may be significant during some burns, trees quite nearby being lost to blazes that do not kill the stream-side specimens. |
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| In general plant hardwoods by creeks and washes/bottomland/lower elevations. As elevation rises mix in conifers. At outer/upper layers plant conifers. This will approximate the patterns found in nature. Plant trees slightly close together - say 8-10ft. After these trees have closed canopy go in and manually thin. This is what timber companies due to naturally force growth or hit the maximum growth potential of the trees. Observe the tree species found in your area to see which ones to plant. Order seedlings from state forestry dept. or from a commercial vendor. Typically down in Z8 north Lousisiana, a canopy will close after cut-over in about 12-18 yrs. As mentioned above, throw in a couple of centuries for that real old growth look, but this will give you a plan that in 10-20 years will have your young forest a shady place, and looking somewhat natural. |
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| I'd start with buying the oldest woods you can buy and then selectively thin from there to enhance what you're striving for. I've been planting trees on ten acres since 1978 and I'm not even in sight of an old growth forest, and I had some pretty big trees to start with....still do. I just garden around the big ones and use them to add a dimension to the garden that I couldn't have had if I'd bought farmland. You have an admiral goal, but impractical as far as I can see if you just stick with an old growth forest theme. Mike |
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| Sit back and wait 2,000 years, and you'll get one! Resin |
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- Posted by jocelynpei 5/6 (My Page) on Fri, Dec 23, 11 at 14:36
| Well, although the best time to plant trees was 500 years ago, the next best time is now. Get a piece of land and see if it has any shelter upwind. If it does, that will save you a bunch of time. If it doesn't plant arcs of spruce or alders so that the open end of the arcs face the lee side. Inside of each arc, plant some high value hardwoods. Ask forestry in your area what grows naturally. The American Chestnut Foundation is breeding resistant chestnuts, but they are not far enough along to offer them to the public. To breed some for yourself, you will need several american chestnuts and at least one chinese chestnut. You can mail oder seednuts or started seedlings. If you are interested in chestnuts, let me know and I'll say more. |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Fri, Dec 23, 11 at 17:02
| DUDE!!!!! you got this bassakwards .... what the heck you buying FARM land for.. buy a darn forest ... [and dont tell me no farmers have treed property ..] crimminey.. you gotta tell these dudes everything ... riddle me this batman.. how are you going to grow 200 year old oaks in your lifetime... how about you buy some land with 100 year old oaks already on it??? Merry Christmas .. and HAppy New YEar ... ken this one came with my property ... and this one i planted a decade ago |
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- Posted by wisconsitom 4/5 WI (My Page) on Fri, Dec 23, 11 at 17:20
| GTD, you've gotten a variety of responses, all of which contain elements of truth. If I'm not mistaken, I believe you are 1) Motivated by a desire to "help nature" as it were. I recognize that because I'm the same way! 2) I also believe you are a relative novice at this sort of thing. No shame in that, we all have to start somewhere. For example, you said you wish to create not only an old growth forest but a virgin one at that! Think about that for a second or two. Nevertheless, there is much you can do. I'd start by looking up articles and studies on forest succession. If you really are inspired in this direction, you will learn a lot. All while looking for your land. If I'm right that you don't wish to simply "enjoy" nature but that you wish to enhance it in some way, starting with an open piece of farmland is legitimate. Better yet, find a piece having both existing woods and adjacent open land. There will be your seed source for colonizing some of that land. Finally, while some here have rightly said that it takes a long time for true old growth, there are many, many interesting and delightful stages along the way. Additionally, particularly among the conifers, there are fast-growing species that are anything but junk, and which will continue their fast growth rate long into the future, all the while gradually taking on characteristics of old growth stands. I have a section of my land that is full of Thuja occidentalis-called by it's common name-northern white cedar by most. These trees are magnificent and the ground under them consists of ferns, mossy old stumps, and fallen trunks. Yet these stands date only from the drought years of the 1930s, when fires raged through the area, clearing the way and setting the table, so to speak, for what is there now. Again, I applaud your having this goal. Now for the real fun part......learning! +oM |
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- Posted by greenthumbzdude 6 PA (My Page) on Fri, Dec 23, 11 at 18:43
| When I said old growth forest I meant the appearance of one in a short amount of time. I know that it would take several centuries for it to become true old growth forest. I want to buy and reforest farmland because I want a clean slate. I want to be able to control the types of species I plant. There has got to be ways to grow slow growing species like oaks and hickories at a faster rate right? Are there any faster growing cultivars? |
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| You can push the rate a little with proper fertilization IF the native soil in your area is not ideal. You can irrigate during times of drought and carefully monitor soil moisture, and that could be beneficial. Proper planting will help some. BUT pushing growth too much will be detrimental to your trees. You wouldn't feed your normally growing kids human growth hormone would you? |
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| Think about how an old-growth forest forms. It goes NATURALLY from old field, to successional trees, to sub-climax trees to climax trees. That's a process which takes hundreds of years. Now, maybe you can speed that up by planting climax species from the get-go. The exact species vary by region, but in Pennsylvania they involve Hemlock, Sugar Maple, Beech, etc... all trees which naturally reproduce in the shade. You still have to allow them all time to grow large. You can probably, realistically, cut the amount of time down to 80-100 years from nature's hundreds, but that's probably about as far as you can cut it. |
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| If you wait for it to happen naturally the invasives will move in also. I would plant a bunch of what is native and would have popped up before the invasives and be happy with it. |
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| GTD, your topic has sparked alot of interest and I think that you have honorable intentions. If you're in either the Ohio or Susquehanna watersheds you will be eligible for the CREP program especially if there are wetlands, streams, springs, etc on the property. In our area if a forest hasn't been disturbed for 120-150 years it may be considered Old Growth. You likely have such forests near you, visit them, make some of your own observations. "several acres of farmland" I'm assuming that money is no object, right? That's good because monitoring and maintaining a restoration is alot of work. Jap honeysuckle, multiflora rose, Asian bittersweet are big problems AWA white-tailed deer. Meet with other land owners who have done restoration work, I'm sure that they will be happy to talk with you. |
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| While I agree with the comments about old growth and virgin forest, it is very pleasant to go out and spend a day among the trees cutting out the vines that you do not want and pruning the trees so they grow the way they are "suppose" to I applaud you intentions. |
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- Posted by jocelynpei 5/6 (My Page) on Sat, Dec 24, 11 at 12:54
| If it's the process you want to enjoy, have a look at what we did. [IMG]http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq314/JocelynClarke/newwoodsro adalmosthalfwayback.jpg[/IMG] this is 2004 [IMG]http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq314/JocelynClarke/wolfvillet allestone-1.jpg[/IMG] this is 2011 |
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- Posted by jocelynpei 5/6 (My Page) on Sat, Dec 24, 11 at 13:00
| Wrong immage link, here, try these. 2004 http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq314/JocelynClarke/newwoodsroadalm osthalfwayback.jpg?t=1324748889 |
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- Posted by jocelynpei 5/6 (My Page) on Sat, Dec 24, 11 at 13:03
| this is in 2011, 7 growing seasons later. [IMG]http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq314/JocelynClarke/wolfvillet allestone-1.jpg[/IMG] |
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| jocelynpei's pictures. 2004
2011 |
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- Posted by mad_gallica Z5 Eastern NY (My Page) on Sat, Dec 24, 11 at 15:12
| The first thing to do has to be a field trip to Cook Forest to look at the real thing. Then decide what aspects of that can be replicated in a reasonable time line. I've tried at various times to find online photos of old growth forests there, but haven't been successful. It is probably a experience that is hard to get from a small picture. Rather like the pyramids, a good part of the experience is scale. However, the things I remember best is the wide spacing between the trees, and the absolute lack of anything but leaves at ground level. Having been there, I definitely understand the biologists idea that old growth forest is a sort of biological desert. There really isn't much there for non-arboreal life. There are no vines, definitely no shrubs, no persistent perennials (I do expect some spring ephemerals - this is their habitat too) just nothing for any animal that can't climb to the canopy. |
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- Posted by wisconsitom 4/5 WI (My Page) on Sat, Dec 24, 11 at 20:50
| Yet a huge number of song birds need precisely this type of habitat. Additionally, when one weighs the "hidden" world of fungi and other soil and humus dwellers, old-growth is king. I think that when you hear somebody describe such a forest as a "biological desert", there's a hidden agenda at work. For that matter, I have not heard them described as such. OP, while the above post is correct that at maturity, old-growth stands can often have considerable spacing between the trees, that does not mean that planting trees that far apart will lead to a similar looking stand. Rather, a tangle of low branches and short, stocky trunks will develop, utterly unlike what you might be after. You really need to study forest succession. It's fascinating and eventually, you will realize that your presence, armed with things like saws, herbicides, etc. means you can in effect skip some stages. I don't want to say too much more because you really do have to start to "see" the forest in a way you might not be accustomed to, and I can't make you do that. +oM |
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- Posted by jocelynpei 5/6 (My Page) on Sun, Dec 25, 11 at 11:11
| Thankyou arktrees. I am only semi computer literate, grin. As far as old growth goes, plant something, anything, now, and learn as you go. Our woods burnt in 1945, and my Dad took me planting in 1955. I've been planting ever since. The forest goes through different stages, then, if the woods is big enough and you need some cash, you can patch cut. Patch cuts are sheltered and moist, so you can change the species mix inside them. Our woods come up in poplar, white spruce and balsam fir...a few red and black spruce. Lately, the beech have moved in by themselves, and I've seen that and figured the woods is ready for red oak and sweet chestnut. The sweet chestnut in the near to foreground in 2011, was planted in 2007. It's about 12 to 14 feet. There is a lot of pin cherry now, short lived, but it makes a sheltered spot to plant hemlocks and cedars and more red spruce. The uncut parts have some yellow birch that we planted, after we noticed it starting to move in on its own. Keep an eye on your woods and you'll see when it's ready for the next step. When you plant the next step depends on how much shelter that stage of sucession needs......and you can hurry it up a bit rather than waiting for the indicator species to move in. |
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| On a vaguely related topic, I always thought it would be neat to get a bunch of seeds from every tree species in the world, spread them out on a big plot of bare ground (i.e., several acres at least), and just watch to see what sprouted and survived. ;) |
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- Posted by greenthumbzdude 6 PA (My Page) on Sun, Dec 25, 11 at 16:05
| Cook Forest is said to be the last true old growth forest in PA. The problem I have is that most of the forest consists of hemlock and white pine and the soil is very different from where I live. I am in a very fertile area with neutral soil. Hemlocks or white pine dont exist in my area at all. The most dominant tree is black walnut and there are no old growth stands of those left anymore so its hard to know what that forest would have looked like. |
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- Posted by jocelynpei 5/6 (My Page) on Sun, Dec 25, 11 at 16:27
| So plant some black walnuts, some other hardwoods, and don't worry about getting it "right" as nature will fix your mistakes over time. Look up "forest associations" on Google, to see what else grows with black walnut. That will give you a starting point, and the rest is up to nature. Have fun with it, I know we sure have. grin. |
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| Where are you located in PA, anyway? |
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- Posted by jocelynpei 5/6 (My Page) on Sun, Dec 25, 11 at 16:53
| Here is a link for you, about the deciduous forest zone, which is probably what is going to grow where you are anyway...if you do nothing and have a couple hundred years to wait. http://www.marietta.edu/~biol/biomes/tempded.htm |
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| Thousand cankers disease was recently found in Bucks County, PA. Planting black walnuts anywhere around there is very likely to be an exercise in futility. |
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- Posted by wisconsitom 4/5 WI (My Page) on Sun, Dec 25, 11 at 21:57
| Also, Green, be aware that what is growing in your area now may or may not reflect the composition of the forest in that area when it was first felled. White pine and hemlock are both abundant in regions having neutral soils. There are such stands very near to where I live. In fact, conifers were selectively logged, to the point of extirpation, across wide swaths of N. America due to their utility for so many purposes. An entire tanning industry was supported in my state just to take advantage of hemlock bark! Inspiration is the key to me. Figure out what you really like about certain kinds of forests and this will guide you in what you need to learn. +oM |
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| There is a small plot of woods about a 1/4 mile from me that looks like an example of what was NATIVE to my area in Pa, there are probably some shade tolerant invasives I can't see, but nonetheless, it's a couple areas of Beech, white and red oak, hickories, maples and others I can't think of off hand, I hope nobody clears it, ever. |
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| You could always go miniature. Mike
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