as far as i am concerned.. the whole tap root discussion is mythology ...

the tap is requisite when the seed sprouts.. to hold the babe in place ... i have seen acorns lifted an inch or two out of the ground.. while still attached ... see link

but .... soon thereafter .. it is just another root ... and can be severed at will....

if not.. there would be no field grown tree horticulture industry ... no transplanting of any trees... no forestry programs ... and no bonsai ... etc ..

there is an extremely rabid citrus forum .... as well as a fruit forum ... even a tropical fruit forum ... you never know.. where you will find the kernal if knowledge you need ....

though we are all tree peeps ... the fruit nuts do things much different due to the plants being a production crop .... that would include.. weird pruning... high fert'ing... etc ...

the key to success.. with any tree in a pot... is water management ... and that starts with the media... [of which the pot is simply a vessel for such .. it doesnt matter how fancy the pot is.. if you have carp media] ... and letting them NEAR dry in between waterings ... with the media allowing a great per cent of the water to flow out the bottom ...

and if you are doing this all in the house.. that will be a winter challenge for you ... more so.. in the great white north ...

good luck

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: link

With this particular tree, the tap root CANNOT be "severed at will". That is a guaranteed way to kill the plant.

This particular tree has a persistent tap root. It does not exist solely for the purpose of anchoring the seedling and then just goes away. It's a persistent tap root that continues to function even when the tree is rather large. If you cut it, it dies.

My seedlings show no sign of developing a fibrous root system, only a single, strong, straight as an arrow tap root that is about as long as the top growth is tall, with small roots branching out from the sides, but not developing much. These side roots don't even stick out as far as the upper growth extends sideways.

Whether that's some mistake I have made or a natural result of the way the tree evolved over the past several million years is rather beside the point. The issue is how to get a fibrous root system to develop, and the question is - what can I do to facilitate that? Preferably without killing it.

These are probably more of a shrub. If you've ever had an old-fashioned quince - the kind they grew for fruit - these are very similar in appearance. They are much like a shrubby tree that can be trained to take a tree form. They are severely pruned back to harvest the leaves in commercial settings. Practically to the ground. You would swear the tree had been killed. The top growth tolerates a LOT of pruning. The root system, in its natural setting, is far more fragile.

These are still small seedlings and will be permanently containerized. They will not develop as trees native to the US normally do, nor even as M. koenigii develops in its natural state. I have seen so many weak root systems on these plants in containers, even from people who have been growing them for years.

In it's natural habitat, I'm sure better side root development would happen over time - but that is time a containerized plant doesn't necessarily have. It is, in fact, NOT happening with these seedlings at this point in their development, nor have I witnessed anything I would call really good root development in plants people have containerized.

In the absence of further information at this point, I am going to try to rehab the seedlings I have at this point by potting the smallest into some Rootmaker 18s, and the larger ones into Rootbuilder II quart size containers. Assuming they do well from there, I'll pot them up into the 3 gallon Rootbuilder IIs and do some experimentation with root pruning - NOT "cutting off the tap root" - after they've been in those for a year or so. My theory is that if the tap root is naturally stopped and a fibrous root system has developed, root pruning will not kill the tree. The problem is to get the fibrous root system to develop.

I'm still open to other suggestions for how to handle the situation. Also for other methods to use when starting my next experimental batch. At least some of my 2nd batch will be started in Rootbuilder 32 propagation trays and then moved directly to some Rootbuilder II 3 gallon sizes (per information from the manufacturer).

But I'd like to try other sensible methods as well and see which plants do the best. I just don't know what some other sensible methods might be.

There is literally no reliable information on growing these that I have thus far been able to get access to in this country. I am occasionally tantalized by a reference to an article in a professional journal to which I can't get access - I no longer have access to a University search, database, or online journal access. Or references to papers written in India, for which I would also need academic access to get at.

I'm working on rectifying some of these problems, but by and large I suspect I will have to continue to experiment a LOT, because even where they grow naturally, people just don't grow them in containers - because they don't have to. And most of the available research is aimed at plantation growing and commercial concerns.

So every little bit helps.

peeps beg to differ with you .. see link

also copy past this link:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Murraya+koenigii&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=rcs#rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=rcs&q=Murraya+koenigii+root+system

i wish you luck in search of knowledge.. but i suggest.. you dont basically belittle peeps .. who gratuitously offer you help ...

your first reply sentence.. is nothing more than an insult ... and comparing it to the first sentence in your original post... i truly dont understand where you come up with the second ....

your issue is not this plant.. your issue is growing a tap root in a pot... and that is going to be one heck of a challenge ....

you seem to redefine 'zen' .....

i wish you well ...

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: link

I'm in agreement with ken.
There's nothing 'magical' about a taproot. It's a root...for initial anchorage, and, in 'strongly-taprooted' species, it serves as a 'reserve energy storage vessel', providing resources to push next year's growth, when (almost inevitably), the top is 'pruned off' by rabbits, deer, etc.
Mechanical taproot pruning or 'air-pruning', as in 'rootmaker' type pots or elevated bottomless containers, will inevitably result in formation of a more lateralized root system...which typically translates into higher transplant survival - and some evidence suggests...earlier flowering/fruiting.

Hi Zen,
This is a link to Go Native Tree Farm which grows hickories in tall pots. This seems to work for them.
Keep in mind, this is for production only. They will be eventually be shipped and planted in the ground.

Here is a link that might be useful: Go Native Tree Farm - Hickories

Sam,
That's one deep hole you'd have to dig to plant that sucker! I'd probably be pruning off the portion of the root that had exited the pot and grown into the ground.
If they'd have had those pots elevated, the taproot would have air-pruned when it exited the growth medium, and would have begun developing a nice, lateralized root system.

Hi Lucky,
They talk about planting the hickories in the text of the link. For large plantings they recommend a motorized auger.
One thing about Go Native Tree Farm, at a time when other growers shun hickories, they embrace them. They collect the nuts, grow the trees and sell them. You gotta respect them for that.

True dat - and being a hickory enthusiast, I do perhaps more than most run-of-the-mill tree peeps.
Have grown 'em in pots - ranging from 1/2 gallon milk cartons to tall pots (though I've not had any 3 footers). If not elevated, they invariably grow into the earth below. I just cut 'em loose and plant what's in the pot.

I want that guys shirt!

one might wonder ... where the heck that pot was standing... with 2 feet of root below it ...

or why you would put a pot like that in mother earth ... as the mud smears seems to suggest ...

the only thing i can figure.. with all that nonsense.. is that it will fit in a shipping box .... and its great marketing hype ....

i would bet on photoshop.. and a stupid shirt ... sorry doe ...

ken

You think the shirt was photoshopped onto the guy?

I think the long Michigan winter and teenagers have kidnapped your sanity, Ken. He wore a shirt produced by the gonativetrees business.

They are actually for sale on their site in the link below.

The other option:

Here is a link that might be useful: Shirts for sale

I agree J0nd03, neat shirt. They also list other woodies that are seldom seen in the trade:
Comptonia peregrina, Franklinia alatamaha, Gaylussacia baccata, Magnolia fraseri, Prunus allegheniensis and Rhod, prunifolium.

Here's the solution when planting trees with deep roots. Also good for trees without deep roots and in places with debris like rock and roots from nearby vegetation. The Dingo auger is commonly seen in restoration and conservation plantings with large numbers of trees.
{{gwi:2123737}}

If you want to encourage multiple lateral roots, try nicking the tap root at several points and dip the wounds in rooting hormone.

A friend of mine dropped of this Dingo 420 a few months ago because he didn't have enough room to store it at his house. It came with forks, bucket, and a ditch digging attachment. No auger. I don't need one anyway.
It sure is a worker! I've been using it to move and load large cut pieces of concrete that were dropped off for a project I'm building.
Mike
{{gwi:2123738}}

I personally want to try direct seed sowing. I am kinda afraid of critters eating the seeds before spring. I have proof that deer have been in my yard lately, hoof prints and Q. Alba acorns gone from where I put them in the top of the soil, plus little poo balls, a dead give away. My Chestnut oak and it's plentiful acorns this fall made the deer suddenly plentiful in my yard, I had had some deer in my lower yard before rubbing their velvet off their horns before, but now they are venturing into my upper yard. My dog ran to the extreme far corner of my fence growling and barking, and the deer just kept munching on them Chestnut oak acorns, like "what's up dog?" "what is YOUR problem?" It was funny, my dog is used to animals running from her, our cats usually. I did think it was pretty funny. Well, anyways, I am wondering if I can direct sow in early spring after the critters stop looking, if possible.