Hi Mo,

Keep us informed on the test results. Gotta say I'm skeptical. I've been wrong before. Good luck with your research. I'm sure the state research arena will have to praise it to the federal govt agencies. GL aloha

Hi, lehua13.

It is expected to hear you are skeptical. However, I would like to know exactly why.

I know it is very difficult for most of people to accept anything new, unless it is within a built-up commonsense.

I can answer any question you may want to ask, but nothing can proof better than actual 20 years of results in Japan.

I would recommend you will read a brochure I translated. You can either let me know your e-mail address, or will upload the file to a download site.

Better not to judge before finding more details.

Kind Regards,
Mota Nakajima

Hi motanakajima,
When irrigate with acid pH electoylsis water it would seem that you can not soluble fertilize at the same time.
In areas where water is scarce losing out on the fertigation technique would be a limitation.
? Are you able to get around this?

>gringojay

Thank you for your interest.

First of all, this system is not really irrigation. As I said at the beginning, it is acturally water treatment by sprinkling acidic water first.

Secondary, you are right. Since the purpose of acidic water is sterilization, no fertilizer will be used. Only necessary additive is a substance that helps spreading and adhering.

The plants will be fertilized when alkaline water is sprinkled, generally 4 - 7 days later. (Alternative sprinkling is the basis method.) There are several organic fertilizer that can be used with alkaline water.

Also, alkaline water has enhancing power that has not been fully scientifically proven. But, from long time experience, there are more than enough facts that proves alialine water function.

(Although I said in my former comment I can answer any question, there are some areas, including alkaline water function, that I cannot answer.)

Once again, the basic concept of EWA is to use acidic water as the sterilizer, and alkaline water for neutralization and enhancement of growth.

I hope I answered your question.

Hi motanakajima,
Sterilization sounds like something you do again & again, when not giving alkaline dose.
I think this means you try to apply electrolysis water on to the growing plant & not so much on the soil.
I am wondering if the acidic sterilization is an effort to protect the plant. I am not sure if you describe a method to control microscopic fungii/mold/viruses from damaging the plant tissue.
Your discussion does not seem to be about controlling insects.
Can you explain more about the benefit that sterilization spray gives?

montanakajima, my basic science may be outdated so it is time to be updated. Perhaps you can enlighten me on this forum or else point me in the direction of elucidation. Here is what I learnt.
Pure water is a compound of hydrogen and oxygen united in the proportion 2:1 by volume.
The pH of pure water is 7.0 neither acid nor alkaline.
When a DC current is passed through water, it dissociates into hydrogen (at the cathode) and oxygen (at the anode).
I can attest to the scientific accuracy of the foregoing. In school we did the demonstrations; many times. In the course of the development of the sciences the principles have been replicated many times and applied in industry.
Regrettably, I cannot say the same for the propositions you have advanced in your post. And yes! I did check.

Hi again everyone,

My skepticism grows. Wasn't acid rain bad for the plants and the planet at one time. What has changed? Something has to be chemically added to water to change its ph. To combine or release H ions and changing ph. You are altering the OH and H ions how? Electrolysis by definition doesn't do this to water as far as I know. It also takes energy there fore this method costs more money than untreated water. Is this a purification method for drinking water similar to chlorinating. Does it cost more than chlorinating. But then again, I don't make my living as a chemist. I need to hear the research data someday to make up my mind. Aloha.

>gringojay

Thank you for your comments again. Your comments made me realize my explanations are little bit unbalanced - perhaps too much emphasize about acidic water and sterilization.

ÂÃSterilization sounds like something you do again & again, when not giving alkaline dose.

I am not sure what do you mean by this. I shall apprecaite it if you explain.

You are correct; EWA of course includes soil conditions, but the primary concept is to apply the water to growing plant. (Soaking seeds is also an importat and effective application.)

What acidic water prevents plants from are disease bacteria and viruses, but not from insects unfortunately. However, it is a fact that insects do avoid electrolysis water treated plants - we can assume the reasons, but not scientifically proven yet.

The unique features of acidic water sterilization are
- absolutely safe for human, animal and most of plants
- no remnant
- extremely high efficiency of killing disease bacreria and viruses
- very inexpensive
- it's organic

The mechanism of sterilization by acidic water made by electrolysis is taking electrons away from bacteria and viruses, which is their energy source.

It takes less than 30 sec. to kill them, while pH 2.5 hydrochloric acid needs hours to kill them.

I hope I answered the your question. If not, please ask more questions.

Thank you again / Mota Nakajima

>ronalawn82

Thank you for your comments. Your basic science is not outdated; all you mentioned are still uchanged amd correct.

You might have added NaCl to water when you demonstrated electrolysis. Pure water is non-conductive, and require some catalyst to make electrolysis happen.

The electrolysis device used for medical and food processing industries uses NaCl, but that for agriculture uses KCl (potassium chloride). The reason is Na is not favorable to plant and K (potassium) is one of prominent nutrients.

When the electrolysis is done with a diaphragm between two electrodes (which separates a bath into two bathes), acidic and alkaline water are produced in each bath.

The chemical reactions occurs during electrolysis is too complex to explain here. Since you show an e-mail address, I can send you a download site if you permit me to do so. You can obtain a copy of brochure that I translated.

Kind Regards / Mota Nakajima

The chemical reactions

>lehua13;

Thanks for your response. The contents were exactly what I assumed.

Oxidation does not always mean adding some chemical to change pH. Oxidation describes the loss of electrons / hydrogen or gain of oxygen / increase in oxidation state by a molecule, atom or ion.

Acid rain contains a lots of unfavorable substance that makes rain acidic. On the other hand, acidic water made by electrolysis is simply extreme lacing of electron. (To be precise, the acidic water made by electrolysis contains very low level of Cl and K ions from catalyst.)

When the electrolysis is done with a diaphragm between two electrodes (which separates a bath into two separate bathes), acidic and alkaline water are produced in each side of bath. Expensive device uses ion exchange membrane as a diaphragm.

Since the acidic water made by electrolysis is just a regular water with a lot less electron, it takes electrons away from anything it touches. This is how it kills bacteria and viruses. After getting electrons, acidic water turns into just a regular water. Thus, it is absolutely non-toxic, no remnant and organic.

But, please do not get me wrong. Acidic water made by electrolysis is still acidic, and do give stress to plants. It is absolutely necessary to pay attention how, how much and when to sprinkle it to plants. As long as it is properly applied, it would be the best organic sterilizer for growing plants.

Is your skepticism still growing, or shrinking??

Kind Regards / Mota Nakajima

>gringojay

I forgot to mention one thing about an application of acidic water.

When a plant suffers from a disease, remove the plant and inject acidic water to soil. It will either kill the cause of disease or weake enough not to come back and spread to other plants. You can re-plant healthy plant to the place the water was injected.

This was repeatedly exprimented, and successfully used at actual farming.

Kind Regards / Mota nakajima

I am more skeptical, we are narrowing the application use of what ever you are selling. I don't like the word electrolysis and how you use it in describing producing your material. Do you apply electric current to a KCl solution? That is an easy experiment to conduct. I know a chemistry teacher and can ask her what happens. Has any test been done on fungus diseases? Has any tests been performed on tomatoe diseases? Is this product used in place of a soil fumigant and kills nematodes? Thanks and aloha.

>lehua13

Hummm... you seems to be a bit emotional, and clinging on your commonsense or existing knowledge. You don't have to like the word I am using, and I am not selling anything now. I am only attempting to introduce something beneficial to those who do not know yet, knowing there will be tons of objections.

I apply direct current to 5% KCl solution to a small gadget I installed under my engine hood of my car to produce oxygen and hydrogen gas. It's an another experiment that I am pursuing. So, I know what happens if you apply DC to KCl solution.

When the same thing is done with a diaphragm in beween, the results are very different. This chemical reaction is a lot more complex than we learned at school many years ago. Please check with your chemistry techer; she may learn something she did not know - with and without a diaphragm. It would be a lot easier for you to accept if the teacher explains.

I can give you a list of disease that will be treated by this method. As regards tomato disease, google a company called KAGOME Ketchup in Japan, who is the largest ketchup maker in Japan. They own a number of tomato farms, of ourse. After testing the system very carefully in various adpects for 8 months, they decided to installed the system in their 5 major farms as a start. They were skeptical at the beginning, but now enjoying much sweeter, larger and disease free crop at approx. 30% more!!

This sytem is not for soil treatment. When some disease occurs. however, you remove the sick plant and inject acidic water into soil. The disease bacteria or virus will be either terminated or seakened enough not to come back again. You can plant another plant to the treated soil to grow. This was experimented number of times, and now used for commercial farming. (This may not be effective to all and any bacteria and viruses.)

Again, I am introducing the system, and not trying to sell the device at this time. There are more than 30 device manufacturers in Japan, but I am not representing any of them now - it is still on discussion as future business. As a business, however, it would be my goal to market the system and devices when the system is recognized and accepted in the market.

Thanks and await your comments / Mota Nakajima

Hi Mota,
The practical question is how much of the acidic water do you spray on each plant, in the rotation sequence of the other water.
We can accept that this depends on how big the plant has grown, because it takes more to cover as the plant gains surface area.
Some of us have crops planted on a garden scale & others in a commercial operation. A formula to calculate the fluid volume of acidic water used is necessary.
You mention the tomato processing company Kagome uses this now. So, enough experimental information on the requirements for growing a tomato crop was done.
Mota, will you tell us the amount of acidic water that is safely sprayed on any food crop as it grows to harvest?

>gringojay

Good question, but uneasy to give clear answer. As you assume, it depends on the size of plant, and also following factors.
- Sprinkling method: In general, manual sprinkling uses less water than automatic sprinkling, because of higher
efficienty.
- Size of water drops: This factor is more influencial for automatic sprinking from top of plants. The larger the drops are, less coverage on backside of leaves.
If it is very small, it floats in the air longer and touches dusts that discharges electron and neutralize acidic water drop.
- Kind of plant: Less acidic water to acid sensitive plant (like egg plant), and more to acid tolerant plants (likd rice, tomato, etc.)
- Location: Sprinkling in the open air requires more water amount than closed area, like green house.
- Characteristics of leaves: Citrus leaves have wax on the surface that requires more water. Also the water repellent leaves like cabage requires more water.

Because of those variables, actual amount being applied for commercial farming in Japan varies from 100 - 600 liter per 10 ares (approx. 26.5 - 159 gallons per 0.25 (1/4) acre) (40 ares = 1 acre, 3.8 liter = 1 gallon)

Here is some guideline of various plants:
Spinach, Cabbage, Radish (leaves and roots) : 40 - 53 gal. per 1/4 acre
(Note) Apply more alkaline water to pro-alkaline vegetable like spinach.
Cucumber, Tomato, Melon: 53 - 79 gal. per 1/4 acre
(Note) Start with less amount, and increase as it grows.
Orange, SApple, Pear (fruit), Rice, Wheat: 26 gal. per 1/4 acre.
(Note) Longer sorinkling interval than average. (Average is 4 days to 7 days.)

It is very important to begin using acidic water from early stage of growing. It will be the best to begin sprinkling as soon as plant roots become active. For instance, acidic water kills all kinds of Erysiphaceae (a bacillus causes powder mildew), as long as it is exposed. Once it gets iside leaves, acidic water won:t work well.

The appropriate amount of electrolysis water to plants you grow needs to be found through experiments due to many variables. It is always recommended to do initial test, like soak leaves into acidic water, or actually grow small amount and experiment various amount.

Please note all above amounts in gallons are for both waters; i.e. 26.5 gallongs of acidic water, and 26.5 gallons of alkaline water next, and so on.

Thank you again for your question, and I hope I answered your question.

Kind Regards / Mota Nakajima

Hi Mota,
Thanks for explaining some more.
Your Sunday reply to lehua mentioned a list of diseases that acidic water has been tested on. This will be helpful in understanding the limits of acidic water. You did say not all pathogens are vulnerable to treatment.
Will you please give us a list showing the results of acidic water on the different diseases?

Hi, gringojay;

Here is a list. The contents are not just for agriculture, but more for generic to medical and food industry.

-Bacteria-
Staphylococcus aureus
S. epidermidis
Pseudomonas aerugunosa
Escherichia coli
Salmonella sp.

-Other Nutrition type Bacteria-
Bacillus cereus
Mycobacterium tuberculosis

-Other Acid-fast Bacillus-
Candida albicans
Trichophyton rubrum

-Viruses-
Enterovirus
Herpesviridae
Infuluensavirus

When I get more information about agriculture related list, I will let you know.

Kind Regards / Mota Nakajima

Hi Mota,
You mention sweeter tomatoes with EWA.
There is a Japanese greenhouse grower of sweet tomatoes who fertilizes with "Nigari", a sea salt mineral extract without the sodium chloride. Thanks goes to GW's tabman for finding the video mentioned next.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmXudrR1S8
I am thinking that man's technique might be already integrated into Kagome's irrigation schedule & EWA is not their only thing being done differently. In theory the Nigari's mineral load can be looked at as a pH alteration.
You might know if the EWA researchers claim increased sweetness is due to the akaline water alone.

Hi, gringojay;

I could not find the video re Nigari - which is an essential substance to make TOFU solid. (Non-organic TOFU may use chemical istead of Nigari.)

As you say, increased sweetness is considered as a feature of alkaline water sprinkling, which enhances nutrients intake from soil. If Nigari increases sweetness, Kagome might know it and does it. The company who sold the devices to Kagome might know - I'll check with them.

Tomato is not the only plant that increases sweetness. Similar results have been observed with strawberry, rice, melon, etc. Some melons are not capable of having two melons on each plant with appropriate EWA.

Too bad, I cannot upload photo images to here.

Hi Mota,
I could not read my own writing.
Try:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmXudrR1S8
If you go to the GW tomato forum there was a thread you can search for started Mon. Feb. 16,09 titled: "Soil, Salt & Tomato Taste".

Hi, Alan;

No luck yet, but will try to search.

I spoke to the gentleman. He admitted the hard time at the beginning, and he said do not use the word acidic water...
Most people seems to be allergic to this word.

Regards / Mota

Hi Mota,
I did a rough calculation that for profitable crops like tomato, cucumber & melon every EMA sprinkling is 2-3 litres ionized water/sq. mt.
Can you estimate the cost of a litre of ionized water?
I am not sure why 1 melon being produced from a plant is good, unless there is a buyer paying extra.

Dear gringojay;

The cost of water depends on the cost of electricity. One of the most sold models is rated 500watts power consumption, and produces 1.5 liter of acidic and alkaline water every minute (3 liters total). Plus KCl to make it 5-8% solution.

One of the deivce manufacturer has released a new model that produces neutral ionized water - no acidic, no alkaline, which they claim superb enhancer of plant growth. I'll get more details about this too.

As regards melon, Japanese consumers are highly demanding. (Or, I would say they were manipulated to be so.) All vegetables and fruit have to be perfectly shaped with no flaw. As a return, they pay ridiculously high price, like $10 a melon, $5 a big apple, etc. It is not possible to grow more than one perfect melon on each plant. So, two melond a plant is 100% improvement of crop. Things are differnet in each country, aren't they?

Hi Mota,
Please tell me some things about how the alkaline water works.
With the high pH of this water dripping off the leaves, on to the ground, I don't know how you avoid problems with fertilizers.
? Does the pH stay highly alkaline once it drips off the leaves ?
? Can what drips off bind to nutrients in the ground, in a way that the plant can not use ?
EMA needs you to rotate spraying with acid water, then alkaline water & at some other time go fertilize the field.
? How many days after alkaline water was sprayed do you fertilize with irrigation, if need to fertilize ?
? How many days after you fertilized with irrigation do you go back to spraying with acid water ?

Sorry for taking so ling to respond.....

Alkaline water (+/-11.2 pH) should only be mixed with a fertilizer of 1/2 strength sea weed (+/-9.8 pH) extract.
Alkaline water will promote better root growth with more nutrient uptake. This produces both healthier stems & leaves, thereby increasig photosynthesis.
Plant growth will be faster & this means more yield. The crop taste improves, gets sweeter & by preventing surface oxidation it's freshness is preserved.
Alkaline water is practical to use for seed germination & for disease resistance during the plant's growth .
Alkaline water is used alone for the first 2-3 times without any acid water sprinkling done in between.

Hi Mota,
I see that EWA uses only seaweed fertilizer at the same time as alkaline water.
Many high value crops, like tomato, benefit immensely from calcium fertilization
& seaweed is not a significant source of calcium.
I am uncertain how to fit any other fertilization into the acid/alkaline water rotation.
Before your EWA post I never researched "functional water", so did some internet searches.
A side track showed me some microscopic images done on the structure of water molecules under different conditions; which I had seen some years ago.
This may be related to that device for generating "neutral" ionized water. In other words using electroylsis (?) to shift the water through both + & - pH, then reconfiguring back again to a neutral pH.
Now there are claims that Neutral water is good for agriculture & I assume this means Acid/Alkaline water is not used in a Neutral water program.
? Can you tell us more about the theory of Neutral water for crops ?

Hi, gringojay;

I am discussing about neutral ionized water with the device manufacturer, and expecting to get more information in a week or so.

In the meantime, there is another functional water mixed with deep sea water from another manufacturer, which is quite interesting. Have you heard of deep sea water yet?

Mota

Hi, gringojay;

Just like all other agriculture, good organic soil is vital for the success of EWA. The basic idea of EWA is to use oxidized water (acidic) as sterilizer and alkalized water for neutralization and enhance plant growth. So, plants need more than EWA, i.e. nutrients from fertilizer.
Normally, no fertilizers will be mixed with oxidized water, but alkalized water is mixed with fertilizer. A problem is there are not many suitble fertilizers available in the market - it has to be alkaline and dilutes in water.
I must check with the manufacturer if there is any problem to mix calsium to alkalized water. Electrolyzed water do not contain much calcium, because it accumulates inside the bath and damages the device.
One of Japanese farmers increased crop by 20% and also its quality by changing electrolite from KCl to MgCl. However, magnesium would shorten device life as the same reason as calsium.
Will find more and upload soon.

Mota

Hi Mota,
About the deep sea water blending: it is unknown data (to me) & I am curious.
I know grower(s) use Nigari for sweeter tomatoes & Nigari is extracted from sea water. ( I don't know if this is relevant.)

Hi, gringojay;

The terminology of deep ocean water (DOW) or deep sea water (DSW) by oceanology is a water created in only two locations in the world - one in near Greenland and another in Antarctic ocean.
On the other hand, DOW in the commercial industry means all ocean water deeper than 200m (600'). I am talking about this commercial industry DOW.

The difference of DOW from shallower ocean water and those on the land are;
1. Much cleaner because of no contamination from chemicals from land and less than 1/1000 bacterias compared to surface water. This is because no planktons can live without enough oxygen and sun light.
2. Much higher content of NO3, PO4, Si. These nutrients mostly from dead fish are not consumed by planktons.
3. Low water temperature and ingredients are very stable through out a year.

Currently DOW is drown up at 19 facilities in Japan, anywhere from 400m to 1400m deep, for the use of marine products industry, agricultural industry, cosmetic industry, etc.

One company whom I am working with has made a functional water by mixing their "treated water" and DOW. (I will explain about treated water separately.) They claim it significantly accelerates healthy growth of plant.

I hope I don't sound like a snake oil promoter. I recommend you will experiment this functional water to see if it is a snake oil or not.

Hi Mota,
Deep ocean water is of scientific interest to me; it just seems like the technological investment would be too great for any independent farmer. If you go to my referenced tomato forum link you will see a GW poster started it by discussing salt's role for sweeter tomatoes.
Off the north shore of Hispaniola Island, where I farm, there is a deep submarine trench. It was, in 2005, considered as a super tankers' sea route to approach the shore.
I am trying to imagine a way to draw up enough deep ocean water to use on a pilot project. We do have fishing vessels that can usually deal with the current.
Anyway, just rigging a trawl line to a collection pipe/canister doesn't get you more than upper surface water sample. Having to put two leads down (1st to drop & haul pipe + 2nd to open & close check valves) is a complication.
This coastline is exposed to rough seas, although historically not any direct hurricanes. A permanent shore pumping installation would not advisable.
? What is the ratio of DOW to mix with other water ?

Hi, gringojay;

I agree with you pumping up DOW is way too costly for individuals, unless she/he is extremely wealthy.

I read the forum regarding tomato and salt, but I have no idea what the role of salt is. In general, Na is not a favorable substance for agriculture, and that is one of reasons EWA uses KCl instead of NaCl. When DOW is used for commercial industry, the first thing is to remove salt, except for marine products.

The mixture of the functional water from a company in Japan is a lot more comples than just a mixture of DOW and regular water. It is made by mixing salt removed and concentrated DOW (extremely rich minerals), electrolyzed water (neutral) and treated water by their own device (very small cluster water with carbon content). I don't know about the ratio.

I need to understand several pages of technical explanations about this functional water. Besides, I will have to test the water to see if it really works as they say.

Hi Mota,
Since the DOW is pretty specialized you don't have to be concerned with translating details about that. I don't know any way to get funding for a project that big.
When you do get a reply from the Neutral water theory scientists please come here & tell us more.
Thanks, as always, for your efforts.