Shop Products
Houzz Logo Print
sjc48

Who Would Have Thought!!

sjc48
13 years ago

Congratulations to all who have sprouts! I don't have any sprouts yet, BUT!! Oh Happy Day! I DO have a source for horse manure for my lasagne bed!! I am really excited -I was wondering where and how to get the manure-horses aren't exactly thick on the ground, here in town.

I had emailed my former co-workers (among others!) about saving newspapers, coffee grounds etc. for me. When I went in to have lunch with them today, the new boss in the office asked if "I could possibly use some horse manure." Well, YES!!

I know how strange this sounds, but that horse crap really made my day! Who would have thought!?

Shirley!

Comments (22)

  • NancyPlants
    13 years ago

    funny isnt is Shirley how a girl can get all excited about horse poo...haha
    There is a big pile a few miles out of town thats been calling my name all winter. Now that the snow is mostly gone, the ground is too wet to get near the pile.
    ah well, guess it will still be there for me.
    Happy shoveling :)

  • kqcrna
    13 years ago

    Shirley,

    Do you have any experience in using manure in the garden? If not you might want to research. Some say you shouldn't use it without composting first, ESP for a food garden.

    Lots Of info/opinions on the soil forum.

    Karen

  • countrycarolyn
    13 years ago

    We used horse manure when I was younger and I haven't had a bed big enough to use it now days. Yes it is heavy but you mix the manure in its raw state in your garden and don't use to much. We use to work it right in, shovel it on then till it in. I would watch my father while picking off the cucoburs (however you spell them) off my socks. LOL hey a kid just sees a hill to climb on they don't realize that is a hill of poo.

    I wonder if anyone is starting to figure out why I have country in front of my name!! LOL

  • kqcrna
    13 years ago

    The concerns have do do with soil contaminants causing food poisoning, like ecoli.

    Also if manure is still hot enough to burn seedlings.

    I don't claim to be an expert, won't argue either way, but novices should be aware of potential problems.

    Karen

  • countrycarolyn
    13 years ago

    Well I do not know about the farms up north but the farms around here pile up the manure in piles and sometimes it sits for quite some time, some farmers even turn it a few times before they sell it. If that is a concern I would just look at the pile you would be getting your manure from. If it has plants growing out of the top it is probably safe, and I would start the dig on the bottom portion.

    Any kind of bacteria like that dies after a certain time frame. If the pile has plants I would bet that is a significant time frame for any bacteria to die.

    Also another sign if the farmer has several piles then it would be safe to bet he has pretty much already composted it for you. Just go to the pile with the most plants on top if the bermuda hasn't set a barrier in to deep to break through that is.

  • momstar
    13 years ago

    Congratulations Shirley on the "score".

    Carolyn, like you I used to watch my dad for hours till horse and cow manure into our garden. For most of my life our kitchen garden was about 1/4 acre. We boarded horses, so the horse pooh was close. We had a neighbor with a dairy farm. Every fall he would load up the manure spreader and make a couple of trips to our place.

    My dad used to call it the "honey wagon". Even now, living in an urban setting, I'll smell cow manure and say, "smells like honey."

    Anyway, I ramble on but I do have a point. One year my mother wasn't patient enough and she put some fairly fresh horse manure on her flowerbeds, nearly 6-8" deep. No matter how much water she gave them, all her flowers looked like they were planted in the Mohave. Crispy leaves, stunted growth, miserable. The HM was too fresh/strong. But the next year.. holy crap! (no pun intended). That was one georgeous flowerbed.

    The moral of the story is, make sure it has mellowed. The "honey" sat in the garden field over the entire winter before planting so it was never a problem. But if you are going to put it right into use, get some aged stuff.

    Thanks for letting me babble about the old days.

  • kqcrna
    13 years ago

    Plants can grow well in ecoli infected soil. Ecoli is just one of the many microorganisms in soil. Good healthy soil is teeming with all kinds of microorganisms, many bacteria and fungi. You can't see them, that's why they're called MICROorganisms. That fact that you have done it without getting sick doesn't mean that it can't or won't happen. Your first time can be the fatal time. Even experts don't agree what period of time might me the magic "safe" time for using manure. Explore it- you most likely find everything from three months to several years. I imagine it depends a lot of conditions, like climate, amount of rainfall, presence of other compost materials, actual temp exposure, etc.

    Using manure isn't something I'd do on a vegetable garden, and nothing I'd recommend to a novice. Safer options are all around us.

    Karen

  • countrycarolyn
    13 years ago

    Ya know talking about safer fertilizers I remember one year I was with my father well that year he didn't use the manure and he was going to use a man made fertilizer. LOL, me being the tom boy I was and still am to this day I took off to the fertilizer bins and I remember having my favorite green shorts on, I ran up the top of that fertilizer pile and slid down it. That was fun good fun, then I went to the next and slid down that one. Oh my word talk about burn, my bottom and legs were chewed up.

    Point being my bottom did not get chewed up like that with the God made manure. If that stuff does that to my bottom on the outside what in the world is it doing to my stomach from the inside.

    I guess each of us have to choose what we like best. I choose manure any day for my veggies!!

  • mechele211
    13 years ago

    Shirley,
    Congratulations on your HM! I'm happy for you...and of course just a teensy bit jealous, too. But my boyfriend called me today and told me he just bought an old beat up pickup truck which means my mulch hauling will be much easier this spring so it has been a good day for me too.

  • kqcrna
    13 years ago

    I don't use chemical ferts, either, on anything. Only organic or at least very earth friendly. But there are many, many organic plant foods besides manure.

    As I said above I don't want to argue about manure. But from another recent thread I got the idea that Shirley might be new to the concepts of soil science and manure. I've never seen manure use recommended by any source that I consider reliable where specific precautions weren't mentioned.

    e.g. see the link

    Karen

    Here is a link that might be useful: Univ of Maine

  • sjc48
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    WOW! Lots of imput! Thanks everyone!
    Karen - I just posted over on the soil forum-don't know all the questions yet, asked for general advice-ie-manure, layers, etc. My only experience with manure was many years ago watching my ex and his mom spread a layer of manure on the veggie garden in the late fall, and then tilling it in, in the spring. Have never used it for my own planting. You read my earlier posts right, I am a complete novice when it comes to "making soil." I need all the help I can get, and I always find it here.
    I don't plant veggies, and I've never used chemicals or fertilizers on anything-I am even a little sketchy about using manure as one of my layers.
    Okay, this is really going to sound "dumb" but what are the safer options?
    Carolyn - My grandfather would have "whupped us good" if we got anywhere near his manure pile, his baled hay, his cows, his tractor, etc-you get the idea!
    Momstar - I take your point-the consensus here seems to be to use composted-and be careful how you do it.
    Nancy and Mechele-my co-workers had a good laugh over my enthusiasm for HM; my daughter tried to be happy for me, but I could tell she thought I was ready for the nursing home! It was good to have someone who understands, to share this with! Mechele, I am envious of your beat up pick up truck!
    Okay, to finish this; I can't always articulate well, but I do need and USE the advice I get here. Thanks, everyone!
    Shirley!

  • countrycarolyn
    13 years ago

    My grandfather was a share cropper I remember going to his farm and digging up the old pig and cow bones. I called them my treasure, LOL. He just laughed at me, though my mother would hit the roof when she caught him teaching me how to spit, lol.

    I was my fathers side kick, I still do not know for sure if he ever knew I climbed in those fertilizer bins but believe me my tail end was already tore up and I will never ever forget it!!

  • kqcrna
    13 years ago

    Shirley, first my disclaimer: I don't claim to be an expert. I have no formal education in agriculture or horticulture or anything similar. (my scientific education is basically human anatomy and physiology, pharmacology, etc). Whatever I know of soil is from making and using my own compost for 25 years and building my own soil, reading books, internet forums, and they like. And I don't know crap about manure, so to speak. Having always been a city girl, manure was a non-entity.

    Manure is supposed to be a wonderful ammendment but but knowledgeable sources (think universities, etc) recommend composting it in an actual compost pile first, reaching critical temperatures twice, and curing for 3 to 4 months. Some poops (dog, cat, pig) , even composted, might spread parasites like intestinal worms. Many experts agree that manure should only be used by those experienced in composting. Other issues- were the animals healthy? were they given antibiotics?

    Other options for lasagna beds- any organic materials- grass clippings, fall leaves, straw, hay, yard waste, wood chips, sawdust, kitchen veggie scraps, coffee grounds, tea... any organic matter. You don't need to add any soil, it's already there, you have dirt.

    Were you asking about Organic options for fertilizers? You don't need to any any actual fert to lasagna. But organic ferts would be fish emulsion, seaweed, algae, blood meal, bone meal, feather meal, alfalfa, the list is endless. Organics, again, are made from things once alive, (and exclude things with petrochemical bases)

    These things probably are of no concern if you're only growing flowers. But you should think about WSing a few tomatoes if nothing else! What would summer be without home grown tomatoes? Wintersown tomatoes are wonderful! I'd skip the manure but add tomatoes to your wintersowing list. There's plenty of time to WSow them.

    Karen

    Here is a link that might be useful: Univ of Colorado

  • countrycarolyn
    13 years ago

    Manure has been used around these parts before I was born and many do not grow flowers and they wouldn't waste the good stuff on just flowers if they did grow a lot of them.

    I have never heard of anyone getting sick from the manure that they have got from around these parts. Not ONE!!

    I have said this before and I will say this again, the farmers around these parts compost it before they sell it. Shirley just ask the farmer and I guarantee you he will say "Well Yes Ma'am".

  • kqcrna
    13 years ago

    Carolyn, I have no problem with what you use in your own garden- horse poop, cow poop, or your own poop. Have at it. Maybe as a lifelong farmer you are an expert, but Shirley is a novice. I think that advising her to use manure but not be the best advice, so I was just being Paul Harvey with "the rest of the story". Every story has 2 sides.

    I'm not a farmer, nor are my family farmers. I have a small family, only 6 first cousins. One of those cousins died a few months ago of listeriosis. Her name was Ruth, she was 2 years older than me. That little girl that I played with all the time is DEAD! Sources of listeria include manure and contaminated soil.

    And then there's E coli, salmonella, and who knows what else. Even handling some of this stuff or breathing airborne spores can make you sick. They might just be better choices for those experienced folks, while novices might want to get their feet wet on things like grass and leaves.

    Karen

    Here is a link that might be useful: more info

  • sjc48
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Okay, Ladies, here's the deal: I am a 3rd decanate Aries-this means that I HAVE TO KNOW, I HAVE TO INVESTIGATE, then apply that knowledge to my situation. I don't take anyone's word for anything, I HAVE TO FIND OUT FOR MYSELF. I would have googled for info on using HM, but the links on this thread made it much easier for me to gain the knowledge.
    For instance, I KNOW, from my own family history, that manure has been used forever in farming and gardening. What I don't know are (is?) the changes, the new ideas that have come along in the last 30-40 years.
    As a 3rd decanate Aries, I have a tendency to jump in and run with it with everything I've got, then run into a "roadblock", get discouraged and quit. In the last link posted on this thread, it talks about the "bad stuff" from manure getting into the water supply. My flower bed is going in about 10-20 feet from my neighbor's house. I don't know where their well is. This is something I should probably be concerned with, beforehand, and would have never known about, without that link.
    Aries people love new ideas, new projects, different ways to do things, different ways to go. We very rarely stay with anything for long. Photography is good for us, because it allows for something different all the time. My home is filled with projects that I've tried, and then discarded in order to move on to the next new thing, idea or project. I don't want this flower bed to be one of the "discarded" ideas, because I really need the flower bed!
    I am a novice at this, and before I jump in, I need someone to say "maybe this would be a better idea", because I really need the space this bed will provide for me, and I don't want to "goof up" in any way.
    Hopefully, this will give you all an idea of where I'm coming from. I appreciate and acknowledge all the help, advice and info I've gotten from this thread. Just, please know that I will use it in my own way, which is probably what you intended anyway!!
    Love and Peace! Shirley!

  • kqcrna
    13 years ago

    Yes, that was the intention, that you investigate what you're doing. Good luck with that lasagna Shirley, and post pictures of your pretty flowers growing there.

    Karen

  • livsauntieshel
    13 years ago

    I'm taking horticulture classes and we're been talking about soil prep. Compost, manure, mulch etc. The point of composted manure is to enhance soil, it's not a fertilizer. It doesn't add a lot of nutrients to the soil, it adds organic matter to the beds to improve the soil, ie add air space, improve drainage. I have to agree with Karen, if the manure is fresh it isn't a great choice for a spring amendment. I would suggest if you get the manure to age it through the season, then top dress your new bed with it in the fall. A better choice for a spring amendment is regular compost if you have it or can get it.

    Just my 2 cents!

    Shel

  • sjc48
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Shel - I had just about come to that conclusion, ie, letting it decompose and then adding it in the fall. The guy I'm getting it from is a master gardner, it will be interesting to see what he suggests.
    The lesson I think Im learning here: composting builds the soil, fertilizing feeds the plants-it's two completely different things, and right now I need to build the soil.
    Lord, I hope everyone can bear with me here!

  • countrycarolyn
    13 years ago

    Karen I hate to hear about any child dieing or getting sick, but I hear of more people getting sick from the nasty black birds than the manure. Never once heard of a child falling ill due to the manure, but black birds.

    Yuck, Yuck, Yuck!!! This was taken last night!! Yuck!! Yes when I say sick I am saying DEATH from these nasty critters!!

    {{gwi:357919}}

  • mori1
    13 years ago

    Karen,

    Normally, I don't say anything put your posts have concern me. As a gardener and a scientist, I think you should understand that while most microorganism like E coli and listeria are found in the soil the chances of them hurting you is slim to none. E coli is found in most warm blooded animals which includes humans and most strains are harmless. The problem mostly lies when vegetables are unwashed or meats are not cooked properly. Poisoning from listeria is mostly found in stuff like cold cuts, mainly from contamination due to poor or insufficient sanitation practices.

    I grew up in Nebraska and before there was miracle grow there was manure. Animal manure has been used since biblical times and will be, long after we're all gone. Manure contains nitrogen which as we all know, plants love. And like a good wine, manure gets better with time. Shirley, keep doing what your doing, your on the right track. Do your research and you'll be fine.

  • kqcrna
    13 years ago

    Mori, go back and read my first reply to Shirley, the 3rd post in this thread. The entire post says:
    Do you have any experience in using manure in the garden? If not you might want to research. Some say you shouldn't use it without composting first, ESP for a food garden.
    Lots Of info/opinions on the soil forum.

    There is nothing there that I wouldn't repeat. This is Shirley's maiden voyage into lasagna gardening. She has previously told us that she's relatively new to gardening, so she's probably not an experienced composter, either. We didn't know if this new lasagna was for a flower garden or if she was planning to grow veggies and herbs there. Manybe she was planning to direct sow early lettuce there. We didn't know if she was aware that manure is a "hot" nitrogen source for compost and has the potential to burn seedlings as momstar's Mother experienced. We didn't know if she knew there are health concerns with planting food in fresh manure. And she wasn't tilling it in, she was adding as a mulch in lasagna. I gave her links to reputable sources for information, university extension services.

    Mori, I have a very strong background in science, too. And I have been gardening for over 30 years and making fine hot homemade compost for a good 25 years. I am enough of a compost/soil nerd that I buy and read books about soil and compost. Have you read "Teeming with Microbes A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web"? If not, maybe you should. Now go back and read my first post again. It was sound advice for a novice gardener with no experience in composting.

    Shirley, feel free to email me again, anytime. But I am through with this thread.

    Karen

Sponsored