Oh, Donn, just one more question: how many layers of cardboard do you put down? Just one or several?

Cheers.
Marianne

Just one.

Thanks Don, I'm thinking that as soon as it warms up enough to be out working- I will be preparing new beds. I just had to read the thread again. Thanks, SUSAN

Hi Don, I'm hoping to find the time to build a couple of these this weekend for my WS babies. Its been almost a year since you posted this and I'm curious if your still pleased with the outcome or if you've found anything you'd do differently.

I've done the lasagna thing with newspaper before and I'm looking forward to trying this. Thanks!

The only thing I'll do differently is to dig a trench around the bed, to keep the lawn grass from trying to work it's way into the bed.

I'll be doing more of these this year, starting very shortly.

Hi Donn, I had a lovely bed of crabgrass I'll be turning into a border this year, about 25' by 125'. I've read this post in detail and, like most, wondered if you mind clarifying for my particular situation. I have pre-emergent sitting in the garage ready to put down tomorrow morning. (Bought it before I found this post) Extension agent says crabgrass from last year is all dead (as opposed to dormant bermuda) so the purpose of the pre-emergent is to keep crabgrass seeds from sprouting. Question 1: Should I still treat with pre-emergent before turning dead grass upside down on cardboard? It sounds like I'll be disturbing a large quantity of seed and replanting them 6-8" deep. Maybe they'll germinate, maybe they won't. Maybe I should treat after I turn it upside down. Maybe before and after. Question 2: Since the crabgrass is dead, does it still count as green or is it brown now? Question 3: If it is not green, what do I use as a substitute? I own sawdust, newspaper, cardboard, leaves, pinestraw and have access to tons of free mulch. I think none of those are green either. I have heard that horse feed alfalfa pellets will kickstart the decomp process, but I've never bothered to find out because I just let nature take it's own time in my compost heap. The heap itself is not nearly big enough to do the area I'm describing. My fantasy would be to put down cardboard, then the other items I own, ending with mulch, but I suspect that won't get the job done. If you tell me I need to turn the brown grass upside down I will do it faithfully. I will also send the subsequent pics from the hospital. Thanks donn!

Question 1: What's the pre-emergent? In my experience, most crabgrass seed will be in the top inch or two of the sod. Flipping the sod will put them much deeper, and further from light. You still may get some germination, but I wouldn't think it would be as much.

Question 2: My guess is it would be a brown, and, as such, won't benefit from putting another brown (sawdust, cardboard, etc.) in contact with it. You'd need to put a green down there, in order to hasten the decomposition. The reason I use cardboard is it's a brown, and I'm putting fresh green grass on it. Additionally, the cardboard contains air, which provides oxygen to the decomposition process.

Question 3: If you can't come up with a green (coffee grounds, live grass clippings, seaweed, etc.), don't put anything under the sod. I'd still cut and flip it, though. There's nothing nastier looking than dead grass.

On the pre-emergent question..I asked what kind it is because some of them can be planted straight into, with seedlings and mature plants, with no ill effects. Others would require you to wait a while before planting.

Active ingredient:Pendimethalin .86%
Other: Potash &Clorine
The pre-emergent is designed for turf grass, assuming I wanted to keep the turf grass. There is none in the spot I'm referring to, but since I was going to use it on the bermuda, I planned to go ahead and use it on the crab bed too.

Pendimethalin is both a pre-emergent and an early post-emergent, with a soil half-life of 90 days. If I were going to use it in the soil of a bed, I'd wait at least 3 months before planting the bed, particularly with young seedlings (I'd probably either not use it, or wait a good deal longer.). For mature plant installation, I wouldn't think it would be a problem.

Potash and Chlorine are no problem.

Thanks for the crucial info, Donn. Because the seedlings are coming whether the bed is ready or not, I'll have to approach it differently. I have intentionally sown more scarcely than many in the forum so the seedlings can stay in containers a bit longer, but 3 months will be way too long. My plan had been to take advantage of free compost in my area, but they "sold" out the last week of February; no more until June. This leaves me scrambling to prepare a proper bed. It looks like I'll be using your instant bed method, substituting alfalfa pellets for green.

I'm intent on getting the cardboard in there for moisture retention. Our soil is VERY sandy.

Thanks for all your kind advice.

I started to make a border as described by donn, taking out sod 6-8", flipping it, etc. I used coffee grounds for green, then filled in. BUT, it was physically to hard for me, since our soil is very hard and heavy. So then I used the method described in the post of May14: Cardboard, straw (I actually used old hay), coffee grounds, then 2-3" of wood mulch. I just stuck my finger through it and was able to easily puncture the carboard, i.e. after about three weeks.

The whole bed is just 4" deep.

How should I plant bought perennials in this, if at all? Dig below the cardboard level, or spread the stuff above it fairly wide, fill it with soil/compost and pile it around the plant, and mulch?

I would appreciate your advice very much. I already have to plants and would like to plant them soon, that is, I can't really wait much longer to see what happens to the bed next.

I am certain that I can put in wintersown seedlings without a problem, do you agree?

If the underlying soil is as hard and heavy as you describe, I would dig planting holes, through the cardboard, for any planting. Definately for nursery plants, and for your new seedlings as well. Use a mixture of compost and regular garden soil to backfill. It takes quite a while for a lasagna bed to affect the soil beneath it, but if you keep up with the addition of organic matter, to the top of the bed, eventually, the underlying soil will improve.

Donn, thank you, this is a sad situation. I will do as you say, and turn it into a beautiful bed.

Theoretically speaking, how long does it take for the soil to be affected by a lasagna bed? And does it depend on what the ingredients were and how many (or how high they were piled up)?

Thanks again, Donn. H.O.

H.O...the worms and microorganisms in the soil will start working the organic material down into the old soil, and the effects will cascade. More OM will attract more 'wildlife.' The simple act of planting also adds to the effect. Digging and amending planting holes, and the root action of your plants will all improve your soil. I'm digging up a bed which started as a lasagna bed 3 years ago. I need to get all the rocks out because I use the bed for Horseradish. It began 3 years ago, with ~16" of layered organic material. I planted it with Horseradish right away, and layered on more material twice a year. The original soil has changed from my typical sandy loam to a very rich sandy loam, absolutely filled with earthworms.

Last year we made a raised bed using the lasagna gardening method. We used layers of newspapers, grass clippings, compost, that Black Kow stuff.

Last weekend we brought in 2 truckloads of compost to make new beds and amend the old ones some more. When I added the compost to the raised bed built last year in May all of the newspaper was gone from that raised bed and I was so happy to see worms!!! When we first worked in it last year there was nothing but heavy clay, rocks and the evil slugs. Its still a little on the clay side but theres more of that rich dark soil. I was surprised how quickly it happened. We do amend our soil twice a year anywhere we plant. We've also started throwing a small layer of compost over our lawn and its nice and green and lush. We do not use chemicals & prefer to let nature do its thing.

Stupid Question time: Re: Lower bed adjacent to new 'Instant" bed?

Here's my issue:

Flag pole.
Circular area around flagpole (slightly raised when we back-filled it, so there's kind of a hump around the pole)
Beyond the circle still around the pole area is a myriad of things (starting from a further point around the flagpole): small Daylily bed, bush, crescent bed, bush, Iris bed, bush.
Spent a backbreaking day yesterday playing 'connect-the-dots' with all these bushes and beds via the "Instant Bed" method.
Since I wanted them slightly raised, I put my cardboard layer on TOP, then a good layer of compost.

The problem: the older, existing beds are now LOWER than the new Instant beds. And there's stuff in them.

Is my only option to dig up everything, level things out with another layer of compost, then put everything back?

Here's a pic of the area before I started connecting everything. The other beds are off the left edge of the pic

{{gwi:368486}}

Don,
I am 54 and the thought of turning heavy sod does not excite me. However I am turning quite a bit of my back yard into new beds this year.

After dropping $ 35.00 and 5 hours into my 15 yr. old tiller it is working again :) My first till job in the lawn was very interesting. Caking, clumping hard work.Light tan dirt that is very different from my black dirt in my old established beds. And then I have to pull all of the loose dirt back and fight the grass.

So a minor twist on your idea. I am thinking of cardboard 2' x 4'. and using a shovel to turn the dirt a shovel full at time. This would require a starter hole and then just keep moviog on down the row with the starter dirt ending up at the end of the row. It would not be as perfect as turning a big chuck but it would be easier on the desk jockey:)

CrAzY LaRrY

Okay, so yesterday - before the deluge!! -I dug the first instalment of a rather large bed (it's going to be my "woodland area" with a path through it when it's finished) and found that this method needs some tweeking to suit my soil. I have lots of small and large stones in the ground - otherwise fine loam - so I'm lucky if I get 4-inch-chunks of sod to stick together when turning before hitting a rock. That means that the roots of the turf is showing when turned upside down and I have had to layer two inches of leaf mold on top to cover. Not that that's a bad thing - just more work. So far, it does feel like it's a lot less work than what I did last year, which was dig up the grass, shake the soil off and compost the rest (and of course rid the soil of rocks!) I'm not sure how long it will take for these beds to be ready to plant larger shrubs since they require a deeper hole but if need be I'll just dig those holes first and use the instant bed method around them. Does anyone want to venture a guestimate for whether I can plant spring blooming bulbs by the fall in this area?

Very excited about this project. Thanks again, Donn, for the excellent idea!

Marianne

Marianne...sure you can plant bulbs in it this fall. I've planted thousands of spring flowering bulbs in completely unimproved lawn, and they do fine.

Don, so glad I found your post. I'm challenged by heavy clay soil that just about had me defeated, but reading your post got me inspired to start a new bed using a variation of your method. Since I had shrubs that needed to be planted right now, I dug pretty deep holes for them but flipped some of the sod upside down back in the hole so that sod can be decomposing underneath and then planted the shrubs high using a mixture of soil & compost. I've surrounded the shrubs with cardboard and each shrub planting hole yielded plenty of sod to get me started flipping it upside down on the cardboard. Now I'm layering green grass clippings, with some bags of soil & compost and whatever I can get my hands on thats organic. I feel like its gonna work. I do have one question though. In areas where I'm not interested in improving the soil, only having a tidy, mulched appearance, will the cardboard covered with mulch kill the grass? Thanks so much for your idea. Would love to see and hear more about your gardens.

I still need to post a pic of the 'new & improved' flagpole area, but wanted to add that NOW is the best time to get out there and do this...I had started the project a week or so ago, and didn't finish, but during the muck-rain-slush storm, I finished it, and what a difference in ease! Yeah, I knew it was easier to do this type of work in moist ground, but WET is even better!

Gee, what ELSE can I dig up?!

Go, go, go!!!

I am glad to see this post resurrected especially for all the new members.

Penny

Wishful..yes, just mulch on top of cardboard will kill the grass. Make sure to thoroughly soak the cardboard, and cover it with at least 4" of mulch. I'm doing this right now, in the front yard. It's an area which is destined to be a bed, and I have it covered with cardboard, topped with about 8" of woodchips. I'm using it now to bury potted plants. I piled up the first half of it almost a year ago, and the second half back in January. The first section could become a bed now. The grass is gone. The cardboard is gone. The bottom layer of woodchips has almost completely decomposed, and it's full of worms.

Donn,

I guess I didn't put my question clearly enough:-) : will the cardboard be sufficiently decomposed by Fall to allow easy bulb planting.

Marianne

The cardboard will be gone.

"Easy" bulb planting? It depends on how deeply the bulbs need to be planted. Some need as much as 8" deep, and the soil under this bed won't be sufficiently improved to make digging them "easy." They will, however, bloom next Spring, just fine.

Thanks again Don. Wish I'd thought to take a "before" picture.

I was reading this thread this morning and was TRYING to post this on this one and wound up getting it posted on the veg. garden forum! lol
so I'm trying again! ;)
Man this is SOOOOO interesting! A friend of mine made him a thing to attach to his tractor for getting the sod up. He needed to sod an area in his yard and he needed lots of sod so he went to the back side of his pasture and dug the sod with the thing he made and planted it in his yard. I might just have to check this thing out he made to see IF I can get my DH to make me one for my lawn tractor because I wont be able to turn the sod and dig in it like you're talking about with my bad back. I love this idea though and thank you soooooo much for sharing it with us. It sounds much easier than the lasagna gardening one. Which by the way, bought the book last year. lol
Thank you again!

Donn, I'm trying to add the trenches at the entrance of the bed and am having a heck of a time of it. I guess I did things backwards by planting first. I tried a square point shovel and a pointed shovel but the area is so small its hard to do. I found it slightly easier to use a regular garden trowel/spade. However its so time consuming and very painful. Last night I tore the skin from the palm of my hand trying to work that heavy clay soil.

So my question is, can you recommend a tool that will help me achieve this and not rip up my hands? Thanks so much.
Deborah

Deborah..I'm trying to visualize what you mean when you say "add the trenches at the entrance of the bed."

If you're digging in a narrow spot, get a drain spade, trenching spade, or poaching spade. They have long narrow blades. Make sure it's very sharp.

Oh, and wear gloves to protect your hands. ;>)

Thank you! I didn't know they made trenching spades. You had said you wished you dug a small trench around your beds to keep the grass from entering. I'm trying to do that now but its so hard. And yes, I need to invest in some good gloves. The ones I have now are horrible, I never wear them. DH said to me last night that my hands are so tore up - if he didn't know better he'd think I was a construction worker.

Sadly I think I'm out of commission for a few days. The skin is really tore up and it hurts alot. Maybe I'll give my left hand a try. :-) Thank you!

OK...now I know what you mean.

A trenching spade may not be the right tool. I use my nursery spade, but it's so heavy, I'm going to put one of these on my next Lee Valley order:

{{gwi:368487}}

It's custom made for edging, and just the right size. The top of the blade is turned down for stepping on:

{{gwi:368488}}

The blade is 8.5" long, stainless steel and only $19.50.

That looks helpful. I record Paul James and saw 1 episode recently where he used something similiar to that when he started a new bed. I don't recall him addressing the trenching though. I was surprised he didn't show lasagna gardening or some form there of. Thats not a bad price too. Thanks! DH said to buy the right tool this time & start taking care of my hands & back. I go thru so many tools trying different things out.

I bought a half-moon edger and it was difficult for me to use. Not sure why I had such a hard time with it but it was really awkward, and the shorter handle made it hard for me to get enough "oomph" into it. Anyway, I replaced it with an ice chipper and that thing's become my second-favorite garden tool (right behind my handy-dandy, all-purpose garden fork). It's got a long handle and looks like a large, flattened-out common hoe. Works like a charm!

Man, I am so way behind on garden technology, I just use my shovel :(

I am going to try out lasagna gardening in my new yard (rental property so I sure would like to avoid as much work as possible, ahem). I have tons of cardboard since we just moved, so I was going to layer that, free compost from the city, shredded newspaper, what little bagged topsoil I have, and wood chips (also free from the city). I'm going to sow one of the beds with perennial seeds right away just to see what happens.

I have a few other beds I am working on, the primary being the one out front. It's about 5'x10' and contains two lovely old shrub stumps. I'd rather not dig them out. If I layer high enough, do you think I could just plant over them? There's a weed growing that seems not to mind growing up through the stump so I figure it should be fine. Right now I have petunias and Sweet William in the bed, which I plan to bed over (sob) in September so that I can get the lilac, phlox, veronica, and coreopsis in. Since they're annuals I thought I could just leave them in there and slap the cardboard on top, then layer. Thoughts?

I love these forums.
Jen

Thoughts? All your ingredients sound good, but they are heavy on the carbon (brown) side. Try to incorporate some nitrogen (green) material. For example, produce, fresh grass clippings, coffee grounds.

Also, take a peek at the Soil Mulch and Compost forum. I went there initially under protest, but I've really learned a lot.

Also, consider using the winter sowing method for your perennial seeds. There are quite a few that won't germinate right now because they need cold. They'll likely be lost in your direct sown beds by the time next spring gets here. If you have them in jugs you can care for them properly until they germinate.

Hold on there seedmama!!

What is "proper care" for WSing?

I just did 10 yesterday in milk jugs, left the tops off, of course. I added some water carefully running it down the sides. The soil isn't soaking, but most of it is reasonably dampened now.

What other care must I do? I thought I just wait for them to germinate and transplant out into their final resting places???

When the weather warms up, you need to make sure they dont try out.

If its raining alot, you need to make sure they are draining properly.

Make sure the slugs dont get in (yuk).

You do need to make sure that all the soil in the jug gets drenched thoroughly once. Some potting mixes in particular are hard to wet and if you don't do it now, it may be difficult for that to happen later. My mom had poor success her first year because she didnt properly wet down the soil.

hello zengeos. dorisl and spartan gardener have hit on two key points, which are to keep the soil both moist and well drained. As it warms up you will also need to keep sprouts ventilated so they don't cook. If you haven't had a chance, take a look at the FAQs on the Winter Sowing forum.

I moisten my potting mix initially in a dishpan, adding more and more warm water until it is properly moistened. I then put it in the milk jugs and from that point I only have to maintain moisture. You're right. The initial wetting is the tough part.

Thank you!!!! This will make my life a WHOLE lot easier!!

I've discovered that using hot water to drench the potting soil first seems to work well. I've also read that adding a drop or two of liquid dish soap can help to moisten the soil. Like seedmama, I use a large container (a bucket that sits in my sink) to hold the dampened soil.

I found this site by accident and have been amazed at all the information I've "bumped" into. I think I'm addicted to this site.

The start of this thread regarding Instant Beds is something I did two years ago kind of on instinct. Everyone thought I was nuts. Hope I have the same results - I've been working on it for two years as it is rather large and an old gal can only do so much :-)

I've a newbie at WS also! Plan to use those in my bed. The way I moisten the soil is to fill the sink with water and set the pots in. Let the soil soak it up. I do put a coffee filter in the bottom of the pots and it limits the amount of soil that ends up in the sink. Then I plant and transfer the pots into a dish pan to transport.

Question: I started a lasagna bed in December starting with cardboard and straw, now adding coffee grounds and manure. Anyhow, as the layering is continued this spring will it be too hot to plant seedlings into as it decomposes with warm weather?

Kathy, from what I've read on lassagna beds, you can prettymuch plant into them instantly, though it doesn't hurt to let them settle for a few weeks. That's my understanding, anyways.

Now as for the 'Instant Bed' technique. Would it work if I used a sod cutter and flipped the sod over that way, then till down a couple inches deeper? or better yet, just do the sod cutting and flipping of 3" with a couple inches of compost overtop?

Either way, I'll be adding compost. It just seems like it would be easier to do all this if I rented a sod cutter to neatly cut the grass for me...

OOOH!! Maybe I can do a hybrid bed...for the hybrids!!!!

hehe

sod cutter to cut top 2-3" of sod and flip onto the cardboard as the bottom of my new bed. THEN add coffee grounds, then straw, then more coffee grounds or compost?

Would that work to plant into? Or are my browns and greens wrong?

I should have around 2 yards of coffee grounds by Spring....

Donn, what is your soil/sod has no grass on it? Is there any place I can buy several big bags of some sort of greens?

Gladys

For 'greens' the frequent (and good!) recommendation is to phone a Starbucks or two, nearly all regular stores will save coffee grounds for you to use. You might get grounds, espresso grounds, filters, but it's all fine to throw on as a 'Green'. Other options are if you're by a juice shop - what is it, Jamba, I think? and they'll often hand over fruit leavings, or the occasional restaurant might save items.

I am so excited I found this method of gardening! I am also amazed that it has been going on for 2 years now. I was wondering what to do on this terrible clay soil I moved into last September, only wish I found this posting then so I could have started sooner.

I've been a devotee of Ruth Stout since the 70's!!! Her mulching books are great fun to read. I've tried lots of types of instant beds--but now I'm older, and after 2 back surgeries--that digging just ain't a-gonna happen!

I'm thinking---cover the grass with cardboard, cover that with straw (not sure whether to use books or loosen it for air flow), and shortly, when the place opens, cover it with free compost from the local pile. All the while I'll be burying green shtuff as I find it, along with my usual things I'd normally compost. I know the green is missing--but my original grass will still be there, and tho dormant, it IS still green...

When it is time to plant (mostly plants, not much from seed until further into the spring) I'll open up areas if need be, dig it in, then pull the coverings back gradually as mulch.

Now I need to know the flaws, problems and hitches I'm going to run into!

Ideas, anybody?

THRILLED to have found this thread...Thank you all for a great time reading the full thread!

Paula in St. Louis