I thought this was old news.

Really? I just now heard it.I know they have a control on the farming seeds, but this is the first I have heard about "Seed companies" meaning, ones we would all buy from,when did you hear this albert?I hate to think that the seeds I have bought,other than the Organic ones I have, are already GMO. Now they even have GMO, grass seed.
cAROL

What is GMO?

Can you post a link to the article here as well?

There are a lot of us, including myself, that don't do facebook.

Fran

proudgm,GMO, is Genetically Modified Seed,proving to have dangerous side effects,no food value,killing butterflies,bees,you need to read up on this,and inform your self.( Read what Monsanto has done to the farmers in India & Here in the U.S. Monsanto, have litrually, put farmers out of business)
I hope this works for you.
http:www.natural/news.com/033148SeedCompaniesMonsanto.html
I am not good at posting anything.
You can always Google GMO seeds,for more information.
cAROL

Your url doesn't work. I think the article you are citing is at the link below. I've read some things about what Monsanto is doing, and it's discouraging. Monsanto is patenting genetically modified seeds like the "Roundup Ready" corn and soybeans, which is weird, but I guess the seeds work well and it's less work for farmers because they don't have to till as much. However, some of the weeds are becoming resistant to Roundup, which means the will have to use additional herbicides to kill those weeds. Where will it end?

Also, I don't like monopolies of any kind - gives one company way too much power and then they bully competition out of the market place. For example, Monsanto has successfully sued farmers growing crops from their own seed in adjacent fields, who attempted to save seed that was cross-pollinated by Monsanto's patented seeds. The farmer can't do much about the cross-pollination - that's how nature works - but Monsanto cites infringement of their patents! Ridiculous.

Fortunately, us WSing and seed fanatics are doing our little part for diversity by saving our own collections of seeds, and sharing with each other!!

Here is a link that might be useful: Consolidation of seed companies...

Thank you terrene,yes, that is the articall I was referring to.GMO,seed is very dangerous seed,a person really needs to read up on Monsanto,I am still shocked when I find out there are some who do not know any thing about them.Farmers are no longer allowed to save their own seeds,they are being forced into using only Monsanto seed.Organic farmers are really being hurt,they do not want Monsanto grown fields next to their's,when there is a cross pollination,the Organic farmers are being sued for steeling the Monsanto seed.,plus, it ruins the organic field.There are pages,and pages of the horrible things that are happening because of this monopoly,and,yes, we winter sowers are all doing a much better thing than most even realize.I really believe,Organic seed, is the only way, right now, to be assured,we are not getting Gmo, seed.Thanks again for posting that ,it is an important issue.
cAROL

Stop buying into the conspiracy myths. The last time I heard this "controlling all of the seeds" USDA was the villian that was, I quote here, taking control of all the seed companies so that they could force every one to plant only genetically modified plants. No truth in that one and no truth in Monsanto buying up all of the seed companies now.

And even if Monsanto did, as long as there is a market for non GMO seed (and by the way, GMO actually stands for genetically modified organism), any one can start up a company selling only organic or any other seeds.

Monsanto does not keep farmers from saving seed except in the case that the farmer has bought specific Monsanto seed. If the farmer wants to save seed, fine, they shouldn't buy that Monsanto seed. The two cases where Monsanto went after the farmers, it was proved in court that in both cases the farmer knowingly planted the Monsanto seed and knew they were not supposed to save it and did anyway. All they had to do was chose to plant a different seed to begin with and they could have saved it.

Monsanto is far from the only company selling corn and other crop seed and way far from owning even a majority of home garden seed companies, especially in this age of web stores.

Get a grip.

Hi kimka,thanks for your input,thats what makes this such a good place to visit,we can all add something,helps us all to read,and make up our own mind,eh.It is the home garden seed we will need to be worried about,unless we are all farmers, are you?Remember, we have to eat all the food grown with GMO seed.
Read up every one,make up your own mind.No conspiracy myth, all fact.
cAROL

cAROL,

There is one persistent myth that you have quoted: that GMOs kill monarch butterflies. This was started by a scientist who put 5 monarch caterpillars in a closed box with some milkweed leaves thickly coated with pollen from Bt corn. Four of the caterpillars died. He did not measure the amount of Bt corn pollen he used an he used pollen from a type of Bt corn that was removed from the market in 2001 and that was never planted on more than 2 percent of the corn acreage when it was on the market.

I was part of the team that was put together to do a scientific investigation to see if monarch caterpillars were being harmed by Bt corn. I saw the raw and analyzed data. It turns out that only that one variety of Bt corn had any harmful effects at real world concentrations; the others had almost no impact at any concentration. On top of that, Bt corn (like all corn) only produces pollen 10-14 days a year and that time doesn't overlap with when monarch caterpillars are around as they migrate north.

A very respected butterfly scientist at the Smithsonian said that "more monarchs die on car windshields every summer than ever die from Bt corn."

Please, look at primary sources for actual hard data before you cite a "fact." Even if you are simply philosophically opposed to the idea of genetic modification, that's your position and you are certainly entitled to it. Still, don't push something as fact just because someone says it is so. What are they basing it on besides a dislike for something? It reminds of the days when everyone "knew" blacks were less intelligent than whites and women were too weak to be allowed to be doctors, lawyers, pilots or even jockeys. It was only in 1968 that the first women won her court case to become a licensed jockey and it was 1973 when the idea that women couldn't possibly be an airline pilot was overturned.

I'm sorry for the long rant, but I hear so called facts used to support all sorts of positions. I'll defend to the teeth anyone's right to speak out for or against something. But when they want to legislate against something, I want facts before they go outlawing things.

I did not post this to cause any trouble,you know what you think is right,and so do I.Because you are educated in this field, certainly does not make you right, many educated people, scientist as well have been wrong,many,many time.If I am given a choice ( and so far, we are not )as to weather we want GMO seeds,I, will say No, I do not.All I am trying to do, is encourage others to look into what is happening in our world, they may be the judge for what they think to be true, or not true,that was the whole purpose of my posting,now, I will not respond to you again, this is done.No hard feelings, this is just not right,that is all.I post on this forum,in a peaceful,friendly manner,never meaning to cause any one harm,I have nothing more to say on this subject.Not because I think you are right,but because this kind of attitude is uncalled for.
cAROL

This is very old news and belongs on Hot Topics. GMOs may not be desirable to an individual in America, but to a globe that must affordably feed billions they work effectively. Is it perfect? No. Are better varieties being created? Yes.

IMO, sensationalism, in any form, only scatters people minds through emotional gripping--those strong emotions render individuals unable to think rationally.

Kimka??? A respected butterfly Smithsonian Scientist actually did a study on how many monarch butterflys die every year on car windshields.This interests me,I wonder how many die on motorcycle helmets,Did he do that study also?

Trudi is right. This belongs on HOT TOPICS.

I don't see why this subject, pertaining to seeds, can't be discussed on this forum. GMOs, Monsanto, Roundup, etc are discussed on many forums besides Hot Topics. And it is informative for the rest of us. I don't think this thread needs forum police (yet, anyway).

Kimka, you seem quite knowledgeable on the subject, perhaps you can offer some more information on the topic of certain weeds becoming resistent to Roundup? What are Monsanto and farmers doing about that?

Also, is it not true that farmers were sued for saving seed that had been cross-pollinated by Monsanto's patented seed? I have read that in a couple of articles.

I did not post this to cause any trouble, I, like some of you on here, thought, that since we all are seed savers, this would be the right place to talk about saving seed,and the dangers that are lurking, to stop us from doing so,I received a very nice note this morning from GW,they have moved the posting to the conversation side, so, if you would all like to join those of us who are concerned,about what we plant,and eat, please meet over there.Most of the testing done,in favor of Monsanto, is done by investor's, of Monsanto.For those who may not know where the conversation site is, it is on the right side of the posting page.
Again,I apologize for any problems,but would love to talk about this some more,please join me next door.And not here.
Are you guys ok with this,thank you,
cAROL, who is a seed saver,( hoarder,maybe? ):0)

It's cool; we can visit this just as easily next door.

I'm always amazed at how many people have never heard of GMO. It is in every processed food that uses anything having to do with corn or soybeans. If you read labels most everything contains corn oil, soybean oil, high fructose corn syrup, etc, etc. GMO seeds contain round up and pesticides, poisons. I for one don't like the idea that this is what goes into processed food. I avoid it as much as I can. Just think of kids now days growing up on nothing but this stuff. I've read many many articles about food allergies, disease, so many health problems on the rise from GMO. Please read all you can about this. I get a health newsletter called Organic Bytes, they are always trying to get food labeled gmo or non-gmo, so consumers can have a choice. They have great articles about Monanto and GMO. Another newsletter naturalnews.com has many articles about GMO. Please if you don't know about this stuff please learn, it's all about our health.

Hi gardengirl, I am glad to see you posting,and,happy you posted next door, I think this should all be taken over there, some here do not like it.Even though it is seed related.For those who do, see you on the other side.
cAROL

Where will it end? It's about greed and control. They want to control the food production of the whole world. Then somebody thought up that vault off the coast of Norway in case something goes wrong.

As long as we have dedicated heirloom seed saver exchanges, T&M and Swallowtail and the like, it'll be ok for awhile. They mainly want the commodities crop seeds for now. I suppose if they buy Burpee, they get it all, commodities, veggies, flowers, herbs, it grows and you eat it, they want it so they can tinker with it.

They make me mad. Two girls detasseling corn near Tampico IL on a Monsanto-contracted seed farm somehow got in contact with the circular irrigating equipment got electrocuted and died. Two others got bad shocks but survived.

The problem for the non-GMO gardeners and farmers is that the GMO ones have pollen drift and can pollute non-GMO crops so you should try to keep them isolated. Maybe that is nonsense, but I don't think so.

They want control of the food and drugs, oil is already taken.

That being, yes, there are still many small seed companies which thrive and are growing larger simply because people would like seed that is independently and not mass produced. I like Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds, Southern Exposure Seed Exchange, Abundant Life Seed, Sand Hill Preservation, Heirloom Seed, Fedco and so many more. I also enjoy trading with folks for heirlooms and old hybrid garden seeds. Recently I made some contacts with some immigrant gardeners who lived in hot humid climates before moving here (to a relatively hot humid climate ;) ... they are so excited about trading seeds!

I added a few comments next door,
cAROL

From an article in Scientific American [On an ever so slightly different subject, i.e. the psychology of prejudice, but the language is better than mine.]

"It's normal for people to over-perceive threats; our mind is designed to err in that direction. It's also normal for people, when confronted with the kinds of threats we've been discussing, to experience emotions like anger, disgust and fear."

You see, folks on Gardenweb, your are normal.

Sorry I was off line this weekend, but let me add some facts (not opinions, which I will add as opinion) on couple of issues, addressing each separately.

Monsanto and other major companies buying up other seed companies:

Actually, many of the companies listed on various websites as having been bought up by Monsanto have not been so bought. I've seen numerous blogs that claim Monsanto bought Burpee, Fedco, Territorial Seed and others. None of that is true. Monsanto bought one company Seminis. Many seed companies buy some of what they offer for sale from Seminis, some of which may be genetically engineered, although most of their varieties are not. This is not about whether GMOs are good or bad; I'm just talking about the first claim that Monsanto is taking over the seed industry. This applies even to farm seed.

There are actually more seed selling companies today than ever before, especially with home garden type seeds, for many reasons including that the Internet allows people (companies) to reach a wide audience with little investment and the rise of interest in heirloom varieites.

Seed saving:

There are no laws against seed saving, only saving and reproducing patent protected varieties. This applies to proprietary seeds whether they are genetically engineered or not. If you don't like that proprietary varieties were developed at great expense and that a company would like to get a good return on their investment, don't buy them. No one is forcing people to buy proprietary varieties and everyone, including farmers, can choose to buy nonprotected varieties and save the seed as much as they want.

Because I was curious about the Monsanto sues farmers issues, I did some primary source investigation. The following information was typical of the few actual court cases. The material I am paraphrasing here comes from the injunction issued by the U.S. District Court in Lafayette, Indiana

It was proven that Maurice Parr, who operates a seed cleaning business in Indiana, knew about the patent law for Monsanto�s Roundup Ready� soybeans, and he knowingly disregarded this information. Mr. Parr confused farmers about the law regarding patents, which led to some of his customers breaking their contracts by saving seed as well, although they were not sued. The U.S. District Court in Lafayette, Indiana issued a permanent injunction against Mr. Parr prohibiting him from dealing in Roundup Ready soybeans. His business will be able to continue to clean conventional soybeans, wheat and other seed crops. Monsanto has agreed not to collect the damages awarded against Mr. Parr as long as Mr. Parr honors the terms of the court order.

GMO genes spreading:

There are many articles that talk about Bt cotton's engineered genes jumping to non genetically engineered "wild" cotton, especially in Mexico. In every case where Bt genes were found in doorway cotton (cotton plants planted or growing wild at some one's home usually as an ornamental), it was found that someone living there had recently worked in cotton fields in the U.S. and was shown to have brought back some of the cotton seed to plant at home; by DNA analysis the genes had not jumped; the plants were the original Bt cotton variety
Again I went to the actual studies done on this case to see how the cotton plants were traced.

Actually there was a study done in England some years ago that planted four GMO crops in plots with non GMO plants and wild relatives of the crops with in pollen drift distance. They followed the "engineered genes" for 10-12 years. Not only did the genes not jump, but the crops bred back to the original in three of the four crops. I'll be happy to supply a link tto he scientific study if anyone wants it.

GMO allergens:

No one has ever been able to reproducibly show an allergic reaction to a GMO crop. Lots of claims out there, but when people try to show it (rather just "well it happened"), nothing. So there is as much hard evidence that GMOs cause allergic reactions as there is for cold fusion and alien abductions. The one case where a peanut gene was added to soybeans, the variety was never allowed to be produced or sold because the requirements for licensing caught the "potential allergen." So the system worked there.

Herbicide resistant weeds:

According to the Weed Science Society of America, there have been reports of resistant in 362 biotypes in 198 species. The first report of insects resistant to insecticides was in 1908, of plant pathogens resistant to fungicides in 1940, and of weeds resistant to herbicides in 1968. All before GMOs.

Is there concern that GMO crops could introduce more resistance? Absolutely. This is why, among others, USDA's Agricultural Research Service has been spending $24 million for biotechnology risk assessment and risk mitigation research. For example, ARS is monitoring for appearance of insect resistance to Bt at the request of EPA. Truth in communication here--I work for ARS. That is how I ended up on the Bt corn/monarch butterfly taskforce. Of course under the next budget this may be curtailed.

Going to opinion now:

I'm open to any hard evidence that anyone can present of problems caused by GMOs. My opinion is never set in stone. But I tend to base my opinions on verifiable facts.

I don't trust Monsanto or any other company (and damn few people) to do the right thing out of the goodness of their heart. I trust penalties that would hurt the company's financial bottom line a lot more.

I expect that companies want to make a profit off investment, so I don't have a problem with patent protection of new varieties. I'm not happy with current legislation on owning genes, which is about 20 years behind the times. But I would like to see the legislation updated, not eliminated.

There are qualities that simply cannot be naturally bred for in plants. For example, there are simply no genes for resistance to plum pox virus in any of the stone fruit trees including plums, peaches, cherries and ornamentals such as flowering cherry and flowering almond. Right now, they've been able to stop every outbreak of plum pox, but one day it will get out of control. Either genes for resistance are added from another source through genetic engineering or we will have no stone fruit.

Everyone has a right to their opinions and positions. I have not attacked cAROL for being anti GMO. She has every right to her position. But her response about me was that my "kind of attitude is uncalled for." All I have done is tried to make a distinction between facts and opinion. Feel free to stand up for your opinion and position. But don't use myths as facts. I can show you websites that say the earth is flat, but that will not change the fact that you cannot fall off the edge. But I will always welcome facts that I am not aware of.

And I am not claiming that just because a scientist said something it is so. Of course a scientist can be wrong, like anyone else. I am looking at actual data from experiments as facts. People can continue to claim that Bt corn is killing monarch butterflies until the cows come home. That will not change the fact that the actual data says otherwise.

I will never forget covering Jeremy Rifkin as a reporter when he answered a question at a press conference about what it would take to prove to him that GMOs were safe by saying there was no amount of evidence could prove GMOs were safe because he just didn't like the idea of them. Only two reporters out of 20+ reported that in their stories.

My usual apologies for my long windedness.

I love ARS for many reasons, KIMKA is one of them!

T

Respond next door.
cAROL

Can someone tell me where "next door" is?

This is a link to Organic Consumers Association which has a lot of info on the topic.

Here is a link that might be useful: Stop Monsanto

Can someone tell me where "next door" is?
Next door refers to (off topic) The Conversation Side of the WS Forum. The link to Conversations is found at the top of the list of threads on page one of the (on topic) Discussion side. The links to The Exchange and The Gallery are also found there.

The link below goes to the thread over on the Conversation side.

Here is a link that might be useful: A little more info, for those interested.-on Conversation side of the forum

I'm sorry,your right Ellenrr, I should use the proper term,I posted on the Conversation side,Thank you for that fine articall, I guess some on here refereed to it at one time as Hot Topic, unless there is a Hot Topic, I am not aware of.Can get confusing it seems ,Is there a Hot Topic,site as well?
cAROL

Yes, Carol, there is a hot topic forum for things political and current events. Trudi suggested this conversation be better placed there as it often leads to a heated debate, off topic to winter sowing. I agree with her, but out of respect for Trudi I would have moved it there even if I did not.

Here is a link that might be useful: GW Forums, Hot Topics

Thank you morz8, I did not know there was a site for Hot Topics,learn something every day eh.I probably would not have posted this under Hot Topics,at first any way, who ever would have thought posting about seed saving, would turn so ugly,again,I am apologetic,
cAROL