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christinmk

Here is the seed Database!!

First off, I have to give a big thanks to River for helping me figure out how to post it on Google Docs. I am truly terrible with this kind of stuff and he explained it all wonderfully and helped iron out a few kinks.

Okay, here is the link to my seed database. My Seed Database

I haven't gotten around to tweaking it, but will do that soon. If anyone has any comments or thinks there should be things taken out or added into the instructions let me know. The way I have it set up is that only myself and any helpers will be able to edit the document. Once all the major problems are worked out we can get going on adding to it.

To make it easy for me (or any other helper) to copy/paste it onto the database and keep things from getting confusing I thought we could set up some sort of system. Each person would post only one plant at a time and have it sectioned off. Like this:

Plant Name:

Geranium pratense ‘Midnight Reiter’

Trueness:

True/Similar

Description:

Most seedlings are true while others have lighter purple foliage/lighter colored flowers/variation in plant size

Then if someone simply wishes to add their confirmation to a plant listing already in existence they can say something like:

"Can add confirmation for Geranium pratense ‘Midnight Reiter’ listing"

What does everyone think of that??

Ps. if there is any volunteers out there interested in helping me keep it updated please shoot me an email!

Thanks ;-)

CMK

Comments (18)

  • Merilia
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Looks great!

    Quick questions--where are we supposed to paste seed info to add to the database? In this thread? Could you perhaps link to the location in the database doc itself somewhere in the "Guidelines & How to Use" section?

    Thanks for setting this up! I know it'll be very helpful.

  • sassybutterfly_2008
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I love it!!! It might be easier for others to just send the info to you or to someone that is 'over' the project... or post their details on a specific thread. It just might get a tad confusing with lots of people adding on their own. Just my 2cents! :)

    I would certainly find it useful to look seeds up on! I was researching one today and went to the D.Garden plant files link and it said propogation by seed. Then it says seeds are sterile. I mean.. c'mon! lol That's not helpful! :P

    I also now have to add this particular Geranium to my wishlist!! That is gorgeous!!!!

    ~Wendy

  • christinmk z5b eastern WA
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sorry if I didn't explain that too well, lol! I was really tired when I wrote that and obviously didn't proof read very good.

    As it is only I can make changes to the document. If anyone wishes to volunteer to help add to it and update it I can add them as a sort of co-editor of the list so they will have access to make the changes. I figured it would be better that way instead of having it "open" for anyone (even non GW members) to make changes to it.

    I was thinking we could use this thread to post the info (using the system I mentioned above) and then I could go ahead and update the list now and again. The list will automatically update the changes I make. I won't have to re-post the link either since it will show the updated version even on an old link.

    Glad you guys like it!!
    -Merilia, you mean have a link on the actual list to this thread or any other we have for members to give their info? Sure I can do that. Great idea! Then if ever the thread were to fill up and we were to start a new one I could change the link on the list to the current thread.

    -Sassybutterfly, LOL! I saw the same thing on that site before too. Talk about a contradictory statement!!
    CMK

  • Merilia
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yep, that's exactly what I was thinking. I think the note you added to the document makes it a lot clearer :-)

  • remy_gw
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    CMK,
    I think it is terrific that you are doing this. My only criticism is when there is seedling variation, like with Geranium Midnight Reiter it should say very similar/similar. The seedling will vary with some looking almost identical, but that is not the same as true. Then you have the problem of people giving plant to people saying this is Geranium Midnight Reiter when it is not. This how Sedum 'Autumn Joy' has so much variation. People have passed along seed grown plants and they vary. Sometimes the variances aren't noticeable until the plant has matured a few years later. Of course we know they may be great plants, but they should be name free or renamed.
    Some plants come completely true like the Agastache Golden Jubilee and should be listed as such.
    Now when it is a variegated plant like Heliopsis helianthoides Loraine Sunshine true/not true would be good since is just a variegated form of Heliopsis helianthoides.
    When seedlings vary greatly, it should say something to that effect like similar/dissimilar.
    Hope this helps. Keep up the good work!
    Remy

  • christinmk z5b eastern WA
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    -Merilia, thanks again for mentioning it. I agree it was a very needed addition to the doc...

    -Remy, you are such a seed expert- thanks for in input here. Glad you think it is a good project too.
    I was basing "True" more on how true to the parent cultivar the seedlings look more than on if they are genetically true. I figured most folks knew that, technically speaking, hybrids will only be exactly true by propagating by culture/cutting/division etc. But I do see where you are going.

    Sorry if I'm a bit dense, could you maybe explain a little more?? So would you say real "True" should be plants that produce seed offspring that are ALL like the parent cultivar? Does all coming true from seed mean that the seedlings are absolutely genetically true to the parent cultivar? What if there were a plant (using my Veronica 'Eveline' as an example) that produced all the same seed offspring and then I found one (say one in twenty plants, no other kinds around it to cross) in a bed that a different shade of pink? Would that "off" one mean the plant should be listed as only "Similar" or would it still be true and the off one is a natural variation?

    Also, should any plant that produced a mixture of similar and dissimilar (what I called True/Similar) be classified as only "similar"? And "very similar" if it is identical looking to the parent cultivar? Does simply the fact that a plant DOES have a mixture mean it cannot produce "True" offspring, even if some are identical?

    Does everyone think we should change the "Trueness" part of my list to something like Remy suggested? Should we base it on genetics and not just looks? I still have the old version on the doc link for comparison. Here is what a revised version might look like:

    True= all seed raised plants that are/look exactly the same as parent cultivar
    Very Similar= is to be marked for plants that produce some offspring that look identical to the plant and some that are only similar
    Similar= all seed raised plants look somewhat like the parent cultivar, but not quite OR all vary in degree similarity
    Not True= seed raised plant does not look like parent cultivar at all or reverts to something else
    True/Not True= indicates that only one in a number of seeds will come true to parent cultivar or that one attribute of the plant comes true but not another (for instance, flowers are the same but compactness does not)Sterile= plants do not produce seed

    Everyone like this way better? Do you think that version would be more accurate? Does it make sense the way it is worded, or more confusing? Is that too many categories now? Will everyone get the difference between
    "True" and "Very Similar"? Should I add an explanation?

    Thanks again to everyone for giving me feedback...
    CMK

  • morz8 - Washington Coast
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In looking at your database post on Monday, my feelings were much the same as Remy's. I felt the True could be misleading, it can't be 'true' while only appearing similar. I was especially concerned with your example of Midnight Reiter, with only a place to 'confirm' when my experience with seeds from this plant have been very different. Most seedlings from seed I've sown from my plants are recognizeable as coming from the Reiter strain, or similar, but a very small perecentage have the identical looking purple black foliage on very compact plants when mature. The largest percentage grow up to look a whole lot more like their uncle Victor than their father Midnight :)

  • christinmk z5b eastern WA
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    -morz8, if someone has the exact opposite experience with a plant listed in the database they could add an identical row below the first listing where they could describe their opposite findings. Interesting your Midnight Reiter doesn't have many similar seedlings. I would say the majority of mine look exactly like parent cultivar. In fact, I had a seedling growing right next to the parent cultivar that looked so similar that when the parent cultivar died out I almost didn't realize it was gone and thought the offspring was it! Thank heavens they do look the same and reseed so prolifically in my garden, since one or two always seem to succumb to mildew by summer!!! Lol.

    Maybe adding some sort of disclaimer on the database about how, genetically speaking, many plants cannot be considered "True" when grown from seed even if they look exactly the same would clear some of this up?? Maybe even add that a person should always state if their plant was grown from seed?
    Thanks for the input
    CMK

  • remy_gw
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi again,
    I do like your updated list of true, very similar etc.

    To answer the questions:
    "Sorry if I'm a bit dense, could you maybe explain a little more?? So would you say real "True" should be plants that produce seed offspring that are ALL like the parent cultivar? Does all coming true from seed mean that the seedlings are absolutely genetically true to the parent cultivar?"
    Yes, true should mean identical genetically. And now I realized there should sometimes be a disclaimer that a plant will breed true, but only if no other variety is close by. As in Echinacea purpurea 'White Swan' will breed true, but most people end up with various shades of pink because they grow(or a neighbor grows) another form of Echinacea purpurea and pink is the dominant color.
    When a plant is a genetic clone and breed true, off seedlings can occur, BUT they are RARE genetic mutations. So they are not often seen by gardeners.

    "What if there were a plant (using my Veronica 'Eveline' as an example) that produced all the same seed offspring and then I found one (say one in twenty plants, no other kinds around it to cross) in a bed that a different shade of pink? Would that "off" one mean the plant should be listed as only "Similar" or would it still be true and the off one is a natural variation?"
    Good question, I'm going to assume that 'Eveline' is a hybrid. Being there isn't much genetic variation to get a hybrid like Eveline, most seedlings would look very similar to it, but that doesn't mean they are identical which true conveys. . If you grow a few plants and notice off an off seedling, chances are they plant is really not breeding true that all the seedlings actually vary to some degree. Also, people sense of the same is often incorrect. Subtle differences are often hard to notice, If you were to grow out a large row, after a couple of years, you would find slight variations in size of plant/flower, color of plant/flower. The sames goes for the Midnight Reiter example. A good way to explain it is like a baby/child that looks identical in pictures to a parent or grandparent. As the child grows, it is evident that they do look like the other person, but more identifiable unique features appear.
    When plants have a larger genetic background, that is when you will see greater variation from the parent plant.
    Of course as noted above the variation could come from cross breeding in the garden too.

    "Also, should any plant that produced a mixture of similar and dissimilar (what I called True/Similar) be classified as only "similar"? And "very similar" if it is identical looking to the parent cultivar? Does simply the fact that a plant DOES have a mixture mean it cannot produce "True" offspring, even if some are identical?"
    Yes, very similar should be kept for plants that look like almost genetically identical to the parent, but is known to not be a genetic clone.
    Similar should denoted seedlings that you can tell what the parent is but there is some variation in seedlings. If it has a mixture, it is not breeding any actually true seedlings. They only look that way to our eye. If we were to pay for genetic testing, they would be very similar but not the same.

    I hope all that made sense!
    Remy

  • christinmk z5b eastern WA
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    -Remy, you did a great job of explaining everything, thank you.

    One thing I need extra clarification on though, CAN genetic "trueness" be based on ALL seeds looking exactly like the parent cultivar? Is this a reliable way for the home gardener to tell if a plant's seed offspring are genetically true?
    CMK

  • remy_gw
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi CMK,
    Sorry for the delay getting back to you. I went to a heirloom seed swap/get together in KY this past weekend.
    Yes, if all the offspring come true then it is genetically identical.
    BTW, if you do have genetic instability, you can make a variety stable by growing it every year, culling out all the plants that do not match what you are looking for. It will take a few years. For example if you liked a certain hybrid tomato, you could save seed and plant those. The babies will have variation, but hopefully you would have one similar to the parent, and you would save seed from that plant. You would continue to do this until you no longer find variation in the offspring. For a tomato it takes about 5-7 generations for this to happen.
    Remy

  • dorisl
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Chris, I admire your efforts at this. Im getting dizzy reading and the info above......would never attempt it.

    :)

  • christinmk z5b eastern WA
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks so much Remy, you have been a HUGE help. I read about that over on the Tomato forum, about folks trying to stabalize hybrids. I'm not sure I would have a good enough palate to recognize subtle variations to do that myself! Certainly would be an interesting project though. I suppose even then a plant could not actually be considered 'true' but only a stabalized version of that hybrid?

    I was changing the categories over the weekend and was a little overwhelmed with how many there were by the end. I thought it might be too much for folks (and myself!) to remember so only added the category "Mixture" for plants that produce a wide range of seedlings. I figured people could use the "Descriptions" area to tell how many looked like the parent and how many didn't.

    Let me know what you guys think of it and the Disclaimer potion I added before the list. Does everyone think it is 'good to go'? Any other last minute changes?

    -Doris, Lol! I felt a bit dizzy myself for awhile there. Thanks ;-)
    CMK

  • trudi_d
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sometimes it can take a few generations for genetic similarities to destabilize. How would you handle the F3,4, and higher generations that aren't what they were expected to be. In other words, an F2 may or may not be stable, it can take a few generations to determine if a plant truly is stable or not.

    Would you need a column to indicate the generation(s) of any seed line? Some of us trade often, and then we grow out our seeds, save and trade again--the generations can easily be lost or even unaccountable. If you want to catalogue similarity or vagaries then people will need to start with genuine F1s--those seeds and plants can expensive.

    Will you be adding a column for photographs that can be used as documentation for comparison?

    T

  • christinmk z5b eastern WA
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    -Trudi, you raise a good point about starting with true hybrids. I'm not sure how 'do-able' that would be though. How would one add that in?? I mean, how many traders list if their seed is second, third, fourth generation, or even know? If it is a naturally re-seeding plant I'm sure it would be even harder to keep track. I love making lists and notes, but I'm not even sure I would be able to keep such a detailed account of who I got every seed from, if their seed was second year or the true F1 (etc) or take the time to ask about each seed during a trade.

    That is a good idea Trudi. River and I were talking about that very thing, adding pictures. They couldn't be added directly onto the database though, since it would make it too bulky. We were thinking that it would be better to set up an album (like on any free online pic hosting site) and provide the link on the database. Or if we wanted to get fancy I could add a column for coresponding links beside each plant listing.

    As it is I have no volunteers to help me with the database project. I feel that is probably about the most I can handle right now! If there is anyone out there interested in starting a picture album to go along with the database please feel free to contact me and we can discuss ;-)

    Also wanted to ask, are there many variable species out there? Should we add that to the list besides just cultivars? The only variable specie I can think of from my own garden is Prunella laciniata, a few do not have the same dissected foliage but more like oval shaped foliage of P. grandiflora. Let me know if everyone thinks that is something worthwile to add or not...
    CMK

  • Merilia
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am a little worried that, if we're too concerned about being 100% precise and accurate, then fewer people will want to submit data, making the project less useful.

    Personally, I don't care if a plant I grow is genetically identical to some named cultivar--what I want to know is if I've got a good shot at getting more plants with the characteristics I liked in the parent plant if I grow its seeds. If it's unlikely, I probably won't bother, and if it is likely, then I'll give it a shot.

    I appreciate that people are trying to address all the variables involved, but I also think people can sort out many of those things themselves if they have lots of data available (rather than having only the data that can match a strict standard of correctness). If people post their experiences with a certain plant, and some of them aren't sure what generation it is, or if it got cross-pollinated, or whatever, then we can still make a more informed decision about whether some seeds they have are worth growing or not.

    I guess my point is that I'd prefer the format to be as simple and as inclusive as possible, and let people use the description field to add details.

  • christinmk z5b eastern WA
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you so much for the input Merilia. What do you think of the list as it is now? Do you think it is too detailed?

    I do tend to feel the same way about seed starting. I start a plant from seed hoping more for as close to the parent in looks as I can get rather than genetic similarity. My list is intended more for that purpose than
    say, for those in buisness growing and selling plants from seed that NEED to know if it is genetically the same.
    CMK

  • remy_gw
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi again,
    I think your list looks terrific now : ) Your descriptions are excellent and easy to understand.
    Remy

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