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| Hi folks,
I'm new here and this is my first post. I've spent some time in the FAQs and past threads but have a couple questions. We start seed inside each year and use standard (but deep) 50 and 72 cell plug trays for veggies, some annuals and perennials. Some of these would be considered winter hardy and I'm considering starting them outside instead. Are these smaller containers suitable for this? Drainage isn't really a concern, but I wondered about the small amount of soil around the seedlings with these small size plugs. They can be covered with a portable hoophouse if bad weather moves in late. I'd sure appreciate your input. Thanks! |
Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by gardenweed_z6a 6 (My Page) on Mon, Oct 25, 10 at 17:57
| Welcome to the winter sowing forum, antietamgw!! I'm sure others will chime in with other thoughts/concerns but winter sown plants develop the most amazing roots. I put at least 4 inches of potting mix in my milk jugs and some of the plants I lifted out had roots wrapped around the whole inside of the jug. The soil/potting mix in the milk jugs is wet when the seeds go in and it stays that way thanks to the snow & rain that get in through the top. Chances are the individual cells would dry out pretty quick and from what I've read that would put the brakes on germination. Good luck, and if you try it, be sure to post back & let us know how it goes. |
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- Posted by littleonefb z5MA (My Page) on Mon, Oct 25, 10 at 21:43
| Antietamgw, welcome to the WS forum. To answer you question simply, those cell packs are really to small and not deep enough for WS. You need, at the very least, a minimum of 3 inches of potting mix, and that is cutting it close. From past experience, going on 8 years now, you will no doubt lose the seedlings if you use those tiny trays to WS your seeds in. AS gardenweed stated, WS seedlings develop a mass amount of roots and need the room to spread and grow that larger and deeper containers provide them with. Fran |
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| Welcome to the forum. Karen |
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- Posted by countrycarolyn 6-7 nw TN (My Page) on Tue, Oct 26, 10 at 8:59
| Well this is my first year to officially winter sow. The statement above got me seriously thinking. "You need, at the very least, a minimum of 3 inches of potting mix, and that is cutting it close." Well is that for like planting in the style of HOS or is that pretty much just basic?? Is that because of the water needs?? Or is it because of the root system?? If there are only a few seeds planted in a container would it need that much soil?? Reason I ask is that I do not have room to grow in milk jugs and all the bigger containers. So I use water bottles or pretty much anything I can find, though I prefer the water bottles. I have a tray underneath my bottles, in order to help keep the moisture locked in. I let the plants suck up the moisture from the bottom as they need it. Granted occasionally I do get one that might get a few yellow leaves, but there is always a spot in the pan that gets less water so I may just switch the position. Most are fine though. This is what I did this past march. This is almost how I intend to do it this winter, except I do not have the lids on the bottles and I have taped them up. I have maybe 2" deep of soil. Some pots have maybe 10 seeds max. I have a small area also to where I plant so I do not need multiple containers of one variety. And yes there are holes in the bottom of the bottles.
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| I've used the deep cell trays from Charley's, 32 cells, each cell 2 wide x 4" deep...but I suspect you would not be happy with those with your winters as opposed to mine - Winter here is generally mild and always wet, wet, wet. It might be better if you stuck to the tried and true in the FAQs your first year, then tweak the method if it suits you once you've had a season under your belt :) Carolyn, 2" of soil is not deep enough. Use your water bottles if you wish, but fill them deeper - 4" is what works best for most. I couldn't possibly set pots in a tray without drainage and leave them without attention - which is one of the perks of winter sowing. All the containers would be so saturated, seeds would likely rot before germinating, or at the very least there would be poor root formation. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Charley's 8622 deep cell
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- Posted by countrycarolyn 6-7 nw TN (My Page) on Tue, Oct 26, 10 at 12:10
| Well ok let me add to that then, how I do it is I empty my pan every so often. Like right now it is raining and after it rains I will probably need to dump it out. I only keep like an 8th of an inch deep of water max. Usually just enough to coat the bottom. I only add water when my plants are thirsty. Is this still not a good idea?? Or would you suggest just taking them out of the pan entirely?? Or could I just add drainage holes to the pan?? I have already started some with the 2" of soil. Please do not tell me I need to dig them up and out and repot!! Oh me so much to learn!! |
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- Posted by countrycarolyn 6-7 nw TN (My Page) on Tue, Oct 26, 10 at 12:33
| Yes I took a picture while it is raining!! This is before I dump out the pan and after the huge front that came through. Also yeah I checked and it is 2" of soil I didn't measure but that is my guess. This picture is from just a few moments ago between my last post and this post. |
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| I don't check my containers every day or even every other day during the winter. I just assume they will be fine and not dry out. I think your smaller containers with 2 inches of soil will require more work on your part, and I agree that you might not get the results you are hoping for. I don't do the typical milk jugs. I use larger pots or empty cottage cheese containers and put them all in a large plastic tub with a clear or almost clear top, with holes in the top and bottom of the tub to let water in and out, or put a couple of pots inside a plastic 'shoe box' container with a clear lid and hole in the top and bottom. This has worked well for me the last couple of years. Becky |
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- Posted by countrycarolyn 6-7 nw TN (My Page) on Tue, Oct 26, 10 at 13:04
| At first I didn't know what you meant by poor root formation, then it clicked. (guidance needed if my thought is way off) With that said, here is my thought. Seeds usually do not germinate till maybe spring. Soon there after we plant them in the ground when the root totally has not fully established and still weak. The ones I did in spring were only in 2" of soil and the root formation was just fine. Now I could understand the roots being formed wacked (my word) if I planted to many seeds in my container or if I left my plants to stay in the container for an extended period of time. I so do not plan to do that, though we all know how life can be sometimes. I ripped out most of everything in the front of my house about 2 weeks ago and that bed is about naked. I am eager to fill it in, especially since it is in the front where everyone sees it. So with that said and also I may add, that I am a hands on person. I am totally oc (obsessive compulsive), lol. There is no way I can let my babies stay out there without me checking on them. |
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- Posted by littleonefb z5MA (My Page) on Tue, Oct 26, 10 at 14:02
| CC, anything with 2 inches of soil is at risk of problems, 3-4 inches is the way to go. As for your pan that your containers are in, you run a very high risk of water logging the soil, rotting the seeds, rotting any roots that are there from any germination that you get. You may think that you can check your containers all the time, but so many things get in the way that you will find a time that you just can't do it. The containers won't drain and you are in trouble. Also, those containers with non clear covers are not going to work either. Many seeds require light to germinate and are surface sown, others will need the warmth of sun, while they are covered with soil to warm the soil and germinate. Non clear covers will not allow the sun in to the container and if, you do get any germination in those containers, you will not be able to see them and will cook them with non clear covers. Do you get any snow, sleet, freezing rain in your area? If so, then that moisture will be collected in the tray and you will have problems draining it from the pan. That lasagna pan is a good one to use for WS. Just put lots of drainage holes in the bottom, fill it with soil and cover with glad press and seal. you can hold down the press and seal with cheap wooden clothes pins from the dollar store for added ability to hold the press and seal on. put slits in the press and seal and put that out. I use them all the time in the early spring to sow annuals in. As for checking the "babies" all the time. My containers will be buried in snow for the winter and I will be trudging through snow to put out more of them all winter. Now if you want to use something to contain your soda bottles, you could use some of those crates that can be purchased for storage. They have drainage in them, and will not hold water, but will keep your containers nice and upright in them. Fran |
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- Posted by countrycarolyn 6-7 nw TN (My Page) on Tue, Oct 26, 10 at 15:23
| I bet the snow is beautiful. We rarely get snow, and if we do it is gone the next day. Since it is suppose to be a warmer winter than normal for us this year. I don't see ice effecting us to much either. The rain and wet is an extremely valid point. I guess if I was seeing someone start seeds for the first time I would be concerned also considering the rot. My containers that I sowed the other day have already gone bone dry. Today the temps are in the high 70's and it is almost halloween. It has been around the mid 80's and these containers are in full sun. If I didn't have the pan there right now, I would be spending more time out there than what I am now. I have been having to water about once a day and that is with the pan. If I didn't have the pan I sincerely think my efforts for growing these seeds would be in vain. Since these seeds need warm moisture then cold moisture then cool!! As for the lids I figured that may be a concern, I wasn't sure. I only have 2 of those containers I am using right now but I was intending on adding more later. I will figure something else out on that one. Here my mind goes back to the idea of tossing the lids, lol. |
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| Carolyn, My advice on what to do with that tray, is to make drainage holes in it, about half an inch up the sides, not on the bottom. I did that many times in the past when I was WSing in New England, and it worked great for me! Never had seeds or roots rot on me, not once. You will not have to dump it out when you get heavy rain, and on hot, dry days, there will be a half-inch or so of water in the bottom of the tray to keep the containers moist. I use translucent underbed Sterilite containers with lids, and then WS in plastic cups which I place in the container. I agree with everyone else that at least 3 inches of soil is better. |
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- Posted by gardenweed_z6a 6 (My Page) on Tue, Oct 26, 10 at 16:30
| Here are a few of my WS jugs. This was my first attempt. I WS 486 milk jugs and lined them up on both sides of my shaded breezeway where they got snowed & rained on. Fewer than a dozen failed to germinate & I grew 40+ new perennial seed types.
Here are some of my first season bloomers: WS lupine bloomed September 18 WS Hollyhock WS Gaura lindheimeri WS Maltese cross WS California poppy WS Balloon flower WS hollyhock WS alyssum, still blooming October 26 |
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- Posted by countrycarolyn 6-7 nw TN (My Page) on Tue, Oct 26, 10 at 18:41
| Dawiff, AWESOME idea!! That is what I will do with that pan!! There is nothing I am willing to do now about the soil for the ones I have sowed already. All I can say is for now on when I start a new container I will add more soil. I will just have to be on top of with the ones already planted. Trial and error right!! Gardenweed, that 1st hollyhock 4th picture is wonderful!! Which variety is that??
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| Gardenweed, I love the big letters on the cartons. What did you use to write with and did it last all season? Bev |
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- Posted by gardenweed_z6a 6 (My Page) on Wed, Oct 27, 10 at 16:40
| countrycarolyn - I grew the burgundy hollyhock from traded seed; don't know the variety. I got seeds after the bloom passed but too few to trade. bev2009 - Deco paint pen and it lasts well past the time the jugs are emptied. Also works great on labels. Craft stores have them. |
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- Posted by countrycarolyn 6-7 nw TN (My Page) on Wed, Oct 27, 10 at 17:54
| Well I have my hands full this year with all kinds of plants to grow, I seriously do not know where I am going to put all of the containers. I will work it out though, I have faith it will work!! Though next year you be sure to keep me in mind with that hollyhock it is gorgeous. Hee Hee I made a homemade lasagna and scored 4 more containers today. LOL!! |
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- Posted by gardenweed_z6a 6 (My Page) on Wed, Oct 27, 10 at 18:02
| I scored 8 more CLEAN gallon milk jugs from the Starbucks kiosk at work this week. The woman who's in charge of it in the mornings is saving them for me--roughly 6 to 8 per week. Best part is she throws away the caps and rinses them really clean. All I do is stop by on my way back to my desk from getting a bagel and she hands them over the counter to me. She's all happy smiles that I can use them for what she calls 'my plants.' Six per week over the next 7 weeks means I'll have a minimum of 42 by the solstice!!! If I remember I'll take a pic of all the little plastic cups of seeds I've got stacked & ready to start WS. |
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- Posted by countrycarolyn 6-7 nw TN (My Page) on Wed, Oct 27, 10 at 18:10
| Now that is a score!! |
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