Sorry, I meant Beautyberry shrubs, the ones with the lovely purple berries.

Linda, callicarpa. They do winter sow, but the chill isn't required. "American beautyberry is hardy from zone 7 to 10. Callicarpa japonica (zone 5 to 8), bodinieri (zone 6 to 8) and dichotoma (zone 5 to 8)"

Diane's seeds has the c. dichtoma, or you might find this one OR Japonica by checking the trade forums, asking. I have only a couple of current seed catalogs in front of me right now and the seeds aren't included in those.

Lots of shrubs can be grown from seed and WS. Did you have something in mind in the way of bloom time, height, other requirements to fit your needs?

Here is a link that might be useful: callicarpa seed

After winter sowing rose of Sharon and kousa dogwood with excellent results, I'm planning to WS both St. John's wort/hypericum and spirea this year. My next door neighbor has both growing in his yard so when I found seedpods, I harvested all the seeds I could (with his permission & blessing). I also harvested what look like they might be seeds from his weigela but can't be sure. I may go ahead and WS just to see if anything sprouts.

I don't see where shrubs & trees are any different than any other plant that sets seeds--just bigger is all. Another neighbor is going to WS seeds from an ancient apple tree that's growing on the family farm up in northern Vermont. He's hoping to get seedlings of that old tree he remembers from his childhood.

Oh good, I thought it could be done, just wanted to be sure. I would also love to ws a mock orange shrub, the name escapes me right now but my grandmother use to have one in her back yard right near her kitchen window and whenever it bloomed, the smell would just fill her kitchen. My grandmother was the one who I inherited my love of gardening from, so having one of these would bring back a lot of wonderful childhood memories.

Another one would be winterberry. I know that one is a slow grower and I'd also need a male. I know winterberry is hardy in my zone but I'm not sure if mock orange is but plan to find out.

Morz8, thank you for the advice on the beautyberry, I found a site yesterday and purchased 50 seeds for $2.50 including shipping but now I believe I chose the wrong specs for my zone. I will probably need Callicarpa japonica rather than American beautyberry. I'm looking for shrubs with berries for both winter interest and the birds in my yard. I have attracted quite a few who appear to be here for a while, I provide food, houses and bird baths for them.

I can't wait to start winter sowing and have begun piling up all my empty milk jugs. I'm looking for different things to ws this year rather than the mainstream perennials and annuals. Although I will ws zinnias, they've got to be one of the easiest thing to sow.

Linda

Linda,
I know Mock Orange is hardy to our zone, at least some of them if not all. Maybe Morz8 can chime in on whether they are all hardy. (Thank goodness for Morz8 and his great knowledge!!)

I have sown Azaleas, Weigelas, and Hydrangeas which were all winter sown. Bought three Pee Gee Hydrangeas in past years which all died. Then someone sent me seeds of them and I tried them. We now have 2 growing on the property and I sold 5 more at my plant sale last year. :O)

tiffy, have you ever propagated hydrangeas by layering? Works so well, and no work. Just remove a few lower leaves on an outside stem, wound it (scratch to expose underlying green tissue), make a shallow trench and bury part of the stem with terminal leaves sticking up above soil. If I do this in spring, it's rooted and ready to sever from Mom by fall. Or I do it in early fall and sever and transplant in early summer.

Karen

I have a mock orange that's huge; one my mother planted many years ago. I'm just 2 miles south of the MA state line in CT--if I'm not Z5, I'm close enough to see it out the window. I've looked for seeds on mine but so far haven't had much luck harvesting them. This past summer a neighbor gave up one of her flowerbeds & gave me what I think is a dwarf mock orange. I brought it home & set it in a container until I decide on a home for it. Too bad she didn't keep the tag so I don't know the cultivar name.

I've got quite a wide assortment of new things to WS this year and am also looking forward to getting started. I've got 100-125 milk jugs ready to go, labels are printed & a bale of Fafard professional growers mix is inside where it won't freeze. Come on solstice!!

In 2009 I winter-sowed New Jersey tea (Ceanothus americana) and this year Silky and flowering dogwoods (Cornus amomum/C. florida, which is technically a small tree). They all sprouted abundantly.

There are some special considerations for woody plants - I cleaned the pulp off of the seed I had collected, soaked them, and sowed them in late fall/early winter so they had 3-4 months of cold stratification.

Karen,

I have done the layering and it is great!! Just did it this past year with a variegated Forsythia and a variegated Weigela that had low branches perfect for it. I'm actually using the technique for an orange flowering Honeysuckle right now as well as Campsis Radicans. Much easier than cuttings!

I plan to ws the Callicarpa americana, american beautyberry. It is actually a native to the south east. There is a lot of conflicting info out there regarding the zones it is hardy in. Some say 6 some say 5, the usda has the plant in mo. and that is more north than me and I border 6 and 7. Here is a reliable site that sells the seeds and also gives a ton of info on the plant. Since you got the seeds I would say sow a few and see what happens. This website says it is hardy in zone 5.

Winterberry, is a ground cover that has berries for birds during the winter.

Here is a link that might be useful: Callicarpa americana

Lol, not winterberry but wintergreen. Seeds can be found at trade winds fruit store.

Linda - the botanical name for mock orange is philadelphus. I forgot to include that in my ealier post.

Right, philadelphus, and I don't know of any that aren't fully hardy to 5 and some even lower. Warm late June afternoon, book, chaise, and I could be on an expensive vacation - the fragrance of these just can't be beat. The downside is, a little like lilacs, they aren't especially interesting when not in bloom - other than the hummingbirds seem to spend quite a bit of time perching in that twiggy growth :) A small flowered vine with a different bloom time helps, I'm using dicentra scandens which sadly wouldn't be hardy for you.

Tiff, you are always so flattering ;) I've seen your garden photos and know what you can do yourself and if I'm not mistaken, working more summer hours than I do away from home - not to mention you are much better with a camera than I am.

I've done cuttings, but I haven't harvested seed...Here's a good selection - many of us take our chances on availability and wait until late winter/early spring when they have their sale - mock orange doesn't need a long chill to germinate so you wouldn't need them in the next few weeks

Here is a link that might be useful: Gardens North - philapelphus

I've never been able to detect the least bit of fragrance which is sad because it's an established shrub right outside my (home) office window. The junkos use it during winter storms--it's not unusual for 20 or more of them to perch among the many stems, all puffed out & looking like little gray tennis balls, while the snow & wind swirl around them.

It had reached an unmanageable size so early this year I had it cut down to about 12". It's grown back to half its previous height already so the birds will still be able to take shelter in it this winter.

Gardenweed, that's a shame - I see an occasional complaint about a no-fragrance mock orange but that doesn't seem to be common for them. Mine is p. Belle Etoile (purchased as a plant, not seed) - it's a single and not as pretty as some of the double flowered forms, I'm not sure I'd keep it with my own limited space if not fragrant to make up for a less than overwhelming appearance the rest of the year.

morz8 - mine is a single also and despite the absence of fragrance, it blooms heavily each year. My mother planted it but I don't ever recall her saying anything about the fragrance. In any event it's here to stay--it would take a backhoe to dig it up and I'd be afraid to have it taken out seeing it's rather close to the foundation.

Morz8, great site, thank you so much. There are about 4 different varities on that site, is there one you could recommend? I'm leaning toward either the Philadelphus microphyllus or the Wild Mock Orange, Philadelphus lewisii or even the caucasicus. Wish I knew which was the easiest to ws. If I get these seeds by the middle-end of January, they should be good by spring, hopefully.

Thanks to everyone for all your helpful comments! I see this site even sells Winterberry seeds, interesting!

Linda

Linda,

I LOVE Gardens North!! :O) I have ordered from Kristle (owner) ever since I can remember now. Doing so again this year.

I've never encountered a mock orange *with* scent. The house where I grew up (in zone 7) had a single-flowered scentless mock orange, planted by the previous owner. The original owners of the house must have not been into perfumed flowers in general. We had scentless roses, scentless violets, and scentless sweet peas. Maybe this is why I spend so much time hunting for sweetly fragrant blooms.

I've been to Florida during orange-blossom season. Loved the scent. Is the mock orange fragrance similar, or its own lovely scent?

-Edie

Funny - so far the only "fragrant" plant that I'm actually able to smell is mock orange. Can't smell honeysuckle, for instancde, even if I stick it right under my nose. Must be something wrong with my smellers.

But the mock orange has such a lovely, CLEAN smell to it. I've got one (purchased) that I just love.

PV

I think why some are fragrant and some aren't, is cause mock orange is the genus of MANY varieties. Some smell wonderful some have no scent.

I know this forum is all about seed sowing and lots of people do it for the fun and experiment as well as to obtain new plants. But I do get the idea that sometimes it is not realised that sowing seed is not necessarily the best way to perpetuate plants, especially shrubs. If you want an exact copy of the parent, unless it is a species, you need to to use a vegetative method e.g. cuttings. For example if my neighbour had named variety of Hypericum or Spiraea which I liked I could take cuttings, layers,or even ready rooted divisions, and have new shrubs exactly like the parents within a year. Mock orange is very simple to propagate from cuttings too. Sowing seed might or might not work and would give me plants in a much longer time span which were not guaranteed clones. To keep an heirloom apple going it would be much better to graft material onto a root stock than to hope that seeds would give you the same variety. That is very unlikely to work. Just saying in case people didn't realise that and were disappointed.

No offense but why worry if it is heirloom if you are going to propagate by cuttings?? Doesn't that defeat seeking heirloom??

Anywho, linda another native that attracts birds is the Euonymus americanus, it is not for human consumption but during the winter they have berries that look like straw berries, hence the name strawberry bush. I am going to also sow this one also this winter.

The botanical for wintergreen is Gaultheria procumbens.

"No offense but why worry if it is heirloom if you are going to propagate by cuttings?? Doesn't that defeat seeking heirloom??"

I'm afraid I don't really understand what you mean by that comment, countrycaroline. Maybe you have a different understanding of what an heirloom is. To me 'heirloom' refers to an old variety that was commonly grown during earlier periods in history. In the case of named varieties of fruit trees the ONLY way you can perpetuate them is by vegetative propagation, ie grafting/cuttings. You need genetically identical progeny, i.e. clones. Seed will not do that for you and the heirloom will be lost. It is because they need human agency in this way and cannot reproduce themselves by seed that so many old varieties of fruit trees have disappeared. In the case of vegetables and other herbaceous plants heirlooms come more true from seed, but even then some variation will creep in if there are other varieties around.

First I am not trying to argue.

Second I have seen your gardens in the uk and they are gorgeous. Just stunning!!

To me heirloom is of course a tried and true. Which means open pollination, which simply means that the item in question needs to be pollinated by insects or other means like someone hand pollinating it. Tried and true for generations to me means that it is grown from seed and tried over and over again and it still comes true while being open pollinated unless it is crossed. Melons or Curcurbit can cross within half a mile. Beans and peas do not cross. Tomatoes excluding hybrids potato leaf and currant will not cross. This simply means that if a plant is open pollinated and it is tried and true. That to me means that it produces TRUE seed. Heirloom, tried and true!!

In regards to an apple tree, most actually have to have 2 types of apples in order to produce fruit. Now if you are going to try and gather seed you can't very well gather seed without an apple.

If natives did not come TRUE from seed regardless if it is a bush, shrub or a flower. Then how do they reseed out in the wild??

1 criteria of winter sowing is if it reseeds then you can winter sow it. Callicarpa americana is a native. Native means that it is distributed in its area by means of wind or birds or human distribution. Euonymus americanus is another native. Both are shrubs and both come true from seed. IF they are not crossed. Now granted if I was to have 3 types of callicarpa they would not come true from seed, and the ONLY option would then be to propagate from cuttings to get a true plant.

Hybrids, the only way to propagate a hybrid is to propagate from cuttings. Some say that if a hybrid sets seed then you can grow it. It is possible in 3 years of saving the seed after 3 generations you may get a stable strain. That to me is not worth it. So I don't mess with hybrids.

PawPaw is a native tree that produces fruit, which produces seed, which is true.

Mulberry is a tree that produces fruit that produces true seed.

There are a lot of fruit trees that actually produce true seed, there are a lot of shrubs that produce true seed. What you have to be aware of is simply: Is there anything that it may have crossed with?? Is it a hybrid??

If people learned botanical names instead the description then this would make seed saving a heck of a lot easier in my opinion. The botanical tells you a lot. Just because you can grow it from seed doesn't mean it will produce true seed. That is why heirlooms are sought is because they DO produce true seed if not crossed.

Here is my favorite website on seed saving!!

Here is a link that might be useful: Seed Saving

""No offense but why worry if it is heirloom if you are going to propagate by cuttings?? Doesn't that defeat seeking heirloom??" As flora pointed out, growing any plant from a cutting or division will produce a big, beautiful blooming plant much faster than growing from seed. If started from seed, many will take 2 or 3 or more years to mature and bloom.

But my understanding of "heirloom plants" has been just the opposite of what flora describes. My understanding is that a particular plant remains an heirloom by it's ability to produce an exact replica of itself from seed. And that's how/why it survives to become an heirloom.

Tomatoes for example- grow hybrids, and their seeds might produce any oddball thing. It might be a different color, size, shape, taste. But if an heirloom Brandywine is grown in the same plot, right next to the oddball hybrids, it's seeds will always produce Brandywine babies, exact replicas of the parent plants. That's how they become heirlooms- they survive unchanged for generations despite being open pollinated by pollen from any other plant.

Karen

If that wasn't confusing enough, here is something that will really throw you, flura.

Some plants even need two of the same species in order to produce viable true seed. (told you it was going to throw you) Take for instance this winter I am going to plant a Vaccinium, which is a huckleberry. Well in order for the perennial huckleberry, vaccinium to actually produce viable seed it must be planted in pairs. Alone it would produce sterile seed, and very low berry production. Now granted there is many huckleberries, 3 genus to be exact. One that is most commonly seen is the annual huckleberry, or the Solanum genus. Even though both are huckleberries even if you were to grow a solanum ... and a vaccinium ... you still will not get seed from the vaccinium, but you would for the solanum.

This is another fine example of why it is soooooo important for the botanical name.

The exact species of the vaccinium I am growing is going to be: Vaccinium Deliciosum and Vaccinium myrtillus.

LOL, omit that last one, it is the Gaylussacia genus that needs 2 species to produce viable seed.

Looks as if I am only growing one vaccinium now!!

Anyone need any vaccinium myrtillus seeds?? I have been stratifying them, grantetd I know that is not necessary for wsing but I had plans of sowing them earlier. (things don't always work out as we plan) Contact me if you want them, they are yours free!! First come first serve, one person will get all I have.

countrycaroline and kqcrna - there is a difference between heirloom vegetables and heirloom fruit. Open pollinated heirloom varieties of vegetables do normally come true and if you read my post you will see that that is what I said. However, variation can creep in and it is simply untrue to say beans and peas will not cross (although beans (Phaseolus) obviously won't cross with peas (Pisum).) Runner beans (Phaseolus coccineus) from which I save the seed every year, begin to show some variation after a few years as other genes arrive from plants grown nearby. If this variation was impossible where did the heirloom varieties come from in the first place? We'd still be eating wild species. And by the way, I did not for one moment suggest that native species did not reproduce by seed. This discusssion is about cultivated varieties of fruit and vegetables.

Regarding heirloom fruit, such as apples, whether an apple requires a pollinator or not to produce a good fruit crop is entirely irrelevant to the perpetuation and propagation of that variety of apple. It is rather condescending to assume that that fact will throw me, particularly from someone who answered a request for information on Hibiscus rosa-sinensis with a long explanation about hollyhocks. To coin a phrase "This is another fine example of why it is soooooo important for the botanical name."

If you plant the seeds of an apple, whether a diploid or triploid variety, you are taking genetic pot luck. The only way to get guaranteed clones of an heirloom variety of apple is to use vegetative propagation. The Fruit and Orchards Forum will be able to provide more information.

My original point was twofold. Firstly that cuttings are a much quicker way of producing new shrubs than seed and secondly, that seed will only work for species, not hybrids. That's all. I am going to leave it at that since there is clearly a gulf of misunderstanding here and it is really not worth persuing.

Here is a link that might be useful: Propagating heirloom apples

To save argument flura, your right and the entire internet and anyone that has ever saved seed is wrong. Happy!!

Anywho why in the world would you bring up apple trees unless you just wanted to argue when we are talking about native shrubs.

Oh by the way I didn't read your entire post just the first paragraph, nor do I intend to. Nor will I be responding anymore to this thread or to you unless it is something about the seeds I offered.

No argument from me, flora. Notice I said "my understanding is'... so I don't claim to be an expert. It's just what I thought to be the case. I'm just a dummy home gardener who flies my the seat of my pants. And I mainly grow flowers, tomatoes are the only veggies I really grow. And I've tried carrots and beets which tasted good, grew by luck rather than knowledge on the part of the grower (i.e. me)

So what about flowers? How are heirloom flowers propagated? Does seed produce an exact replica?

I'm not arguing with anybody here!

Karen

I lied, I am responding!!

Karen, here is a thread you may enjoy. ;)

Here is a link that might be useful: heirloom seed questions

*lol* Anyway, thank you all for your responses to my question about ws native shrubs, it's really helped.

Linda