22,796 Garden Web Discussions | Roses
In my zone 5, Cecile Brunner can grow reasonably well, but it depends on which version of Cecile Brunner, cl. you are talking about. There are several bush forms that pop up on the sales lists, and at least two climbing forms that I have. Cecile Brunner cl. that's the Hosp polyantha climber is pretty reliable at surviving most winters for me, though it bit the dust in the polar vortex and was replaced last year. It doesn't bloom as often as I would wish, but it's a healthy and hardy rose. Cecile Brunner Everblooming cl., the Siskiyou climber I got from Heirloom, is new this spring and I think I planted and lost it several years ago. This one seems to be a little less hardy for me, but I didn't have it in a particularly protected area, as it's next to the rest of my hybrid musks.
In response to bboy's comments, I think hybrid musks are much more hardy than they are typically rated. Most of them are rated zone 6, but I have around 10 of them happily on their 4th or 5th year in a relatively exposed area of my yard. A few seems to live down to their z6 rating - Moonlight and Renae come to mind for me - but most of them are bullet proof and generally tip hardy for me.
The bottom line is that both Cecile Brunner cl. are rated to z5, but you won't know if it likes your conditions until you try it. If your zone is indeed stretching into z4, that can make a big difference for many climbers, so it might be safer to try it in a protected spot. A way that I create a "protected spot" where there isn't one already is to stand leaf bags around the wimpy rose once the temperatures are around a high of 20's. I've already done that for my teas this year, and they're going on 5 or 6 years in my yard and none of them are rated any lower than zone 7. They've been pretty happy, even tip hardy under these circumstances, and are among my more reliable bloomers in heat.
Cynthia
Depending on how cold it got during this time, 4 or 5 years isn't a very long trial. Hardiness zones are frequently misapplied, somebody could easily list a rose as Zone 6 because it freezes at 0F or Zone 7 because it freezes at 10F. And I have found that when I do a literature review of a particular rose there can be a multiple zone variation in hardiness assignments. So apparently hardiness ratings are given rather often that are just plain wrong. I have noticed for years roses I am interested in and have personal exposure to being given highly optimistic zone designations. Statements in commercial literature in particular should always be considered subject to verification.
lilfinch, Yes she is own root. All of my roses are own root. Got her when they were called Flower Circus roses so she's been hear a long time. Own root seems to be the only roses that have grown well here. I've had dr. huey multiflora and a third one can't recall the name. When shovel pruning they all had roots not much larger than when they were planted. Pomponella could not be found own root back then. She put down her own roots a long time ago and abandoned the multiflora. Had to move one and the graft was just laying there unused. For me least own root gives me good strong roses that seems to better handle what mother nature can dish out. Years with to much rain, no rain, frigid weather and so on. Sorry for being long winded.
This post was edited by pattyw5 on Fri, Nov 14, 14 at 10:25
Healthy and fragrant there's Polar Express. It's creamy white fading to white. Can't wait to get the new Ice Cap Rose. It's from Radler in conjunction with Meilland Int. Unfortunately my guess is it's going to be scentless as it sounds like a double flowered White Out. While WO is totally disease free here In high humidity in the corn belt. Don't know how she does in the gulf coast states.Just a couple more beauties to consider. As they grow like Margaret Merrill did for me.She had horrible black spot here if not sprayed.
I'm sorry that I neglected to tell you about Margaret Merrill. When I sprayed She was glorious to my eye. Bringing to mind pure sweet innocents. One of the hardest shovel prunes ever. I'm scent challenged and don't remember her being smelly. She formed nice round even growth. Knee high I think. Don't recall continuous bloom but bloomed in flushes. Someone correct me if I'm wrong please.
This post was edited by pattyw5 on Sat, Nov 15, 14 at 16:55
If one of the wild roses has an immunity against the virus, it may be possible that grafting ornamental roses to that wild rose (used as understock) may transfer the immunity.
"if silenced rootstock can efficiently transmit the silencing signal to non-transformed scions, as has already been demonstrated in herbaceous plants."
This article is talking about adding genetically modified RNAi-eliciting constructs to normal rootstocks, but it should also work if a wild rose already has the proper RNAi.
See the review below.
Here is a link that might be useful: link to scientific article
People, including myself, love roses and roses will continue to be an important element in the garden. A way forward for the people, for the general public and science to work together to find a more effective control options for this disease growing problem. "
Here is a link that might be useful: http://alldiseasessheets.org/
Looked up Zaide at Newflora this morning as I was also considering this rose. Unfortunately it is not very disease resistant. I don't spray. Newflora gives Information on most of the Kordes roses sold in the US. Balinda's Dream mildewed badly for me. I'm still searching also.
This post was edited by pattyw5 on Thu, Nov 13, 14 at 11:59
There are few roses, in my opinion, that can compete with Gertrude Jekyll for fragrance, and also for vigorous growth. We grow this rose in an environment that gets quite a few hot days, and it just keeps on going. Since we live in semi-desert, we don't see any disease issues. Our GJ is own root, and does not seem to lose any growth through the winter. The thorns are quite signficant: you should wear good protection when pruning. GJ will easily spread out into a large bush with many canes coming from below ground. The fragrance is noticable 40 feets away when it is in bloom, which is most of the growing season for us. In order to avoid pruning parts of the top growth, I am now just taking whole canes off at ground level, and letting new ones replace them.
Renais
I am in the Nevada desert. Galloping Gertie does well, but does not bloom much, except for a spring and fall flush. It does smell great. I have Barone Prevost too, and it smells about the same. But my Barone Prvost balls for some reason in the spring. I have Belinda`s dream too, and for some reason, it has never had much fragrance. It is about 5 years old.
Since several have brought up the subject of Ebola Virus, the following may be of interest.
Around 1990 scientists started realizing that plants utilized the production of RNAi (RNA interference) to fight plant viruses.
"The discovery of RNAi was preceded first by observations of transcriptional inhibition by antisense RNA expressed in transgenic plants,[145] and more directly by reports of unexpected outcomes in experiments performed by plant scientists in the United States and the Netherlands in the early 1990s.[146] In an attempt to alter flower colors in petunias, researchers introduced additional copies of a gene encoding chalcone synthase, a key enzyme for flower pigmentation into petunia plants of normally pink or violet flower color. The overexpressed gene was expected to result in darker flowers, but instead produced less pigmented, fully or partially white flowers, indicating that the activity of chalcone synthase had been substantially decreased; in fact, both the endogenous genes and the transgenes were downregulated in the white flowers. Soon after, a related event termed quelling was noted in the fungus Neurospora crassa,[147] although it was not immediately recognized as related. Further investigation of the phenomenon in plants indicated that the downregulation was due to post-transcriptional inhibition of gene expression via an increased rate of mRNA degradation.[148] This phenomenon was called co-suppression of gene expression, but the molecular mechanism remained unknown.[149]
Not long after, plant virologists working on improving plant resistance to viral diseases observed a similar unexpected phenomenon. While it was known that plants expressing virus-specific proteins showed enhanced tolerance or resistance to viral infection, it was not expected that plants carrying only short, non-coding regions of viral RNA sequences would show similar levels of protection. Researchers believed that viral RNA produced by transgenes could also inhibit viral replication.[150] The reverse experiment, in which short sequences of plant genes were introduced into viruses, showed that the targeted gene was suppressed in an infected plant. This phenomenon was labeled "virus-induced gene silencing" (VIGS), and the set of such phenomena were collectively called post transcriptional gene silencing.[151]"
The above quote is from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_interference
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It did not take long to recognize that the same mechanism(s) take place in other virus infected forms of life.
Here is a very recent paper concerning RNAi and Ebola (plus other human infecting virus).
Title: "Postexposure Protection of Guinea Pigs against a Lethal Ebola Virus Challenge Is Conferred by RNA Interference"
"RNA interference (RNAi) represents a powerful, naturally occurring biological strategy for inhibiting gene expression. RNAi has been used in cell-culture systems to inhibit the replication of a number of viruses that cause disease in humans, including HIV, hepatitis B virus (HBV), hepatitis C virus, influenza virus, herpesviruses, poliovirus, human papillomavirus, respiratory syncytial virus, and coxsackievirus (reviewed in [4, 5]); more recently, it has been used to inhibit some emerging and reemerging viruses, including Marburg virus [6], lymphocytic choriomeningitis virus [7], and severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus [8]. "
http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/193/12/1650.full
Here is a link that might be useful: RNA interference (RNAi) and Ebola Virus
Interesting results, Cynthia. I think by nature and growth habit HTs are not generally known for being prolific bloomers. They bloom in flushes and those take time to generate and in order to come up with those nice longer stems for cutting we associate with HTs sometimes that's a long time. They also bloom singly to a stem for the most part. So they don't have the more full, covered in blooms look of the classes that bloom in clusters.
As for grafted or own root you have to remember that all of the older HTs were never, ever tested own root. Own root wasn't really a commercial option until recently so breeders never tested them that way. They were bred to BE grafted. So a lot of those roses are very weak growers on their own roots. Of course not all of them, because just by the odds some of them would be good growers, but a lot of them are weaklings. There's probably a good chance that a lot of the floribundas and grandifloras from that time are weak on their own roots too but they have different growing habits that make it less noticeable. If those roses were coming out today they'd be tested under some very different criteria and probably would never make it to market. Think of all the lovely roses we'd never have if that were the case. Roses like Double Delight and Peace may never have been marketed and that would indeed be a sad thing. Grafting isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Seil - I agree that HTs aren't known for being prolific bloomers, which is why I gave many of them the benefit of the doubt. My own root Madame Delbard is every bit as good (bad?) a bloomer as grafted Veteran's Honor in the same bed, and both are stiff upright narrow roses with a few blooms at the ends of the canes every few weeks. On the other hand, at least two of my top most impressive, well-branched prolific bloomers are grafted HTs - Anne Henderson and Savoy Hotel. I don't know what they'd be like on their own roots, but it's enough to make me rethink my hesitations about grafted plants. I just feel so bad for the poor things as I tend to lose a good fourth of my grafted plants in their first summer from what I'm presuming is verticilium wilt, much less those that don't survive the winters. Still, there are plenty of lovely shrubs and OGRs that I still want own-root to leave choices for the HTs in the grafted plants.
And yes, if we didn't have grafting many wonderful roses would be sadly missing from our world. There are already too many roses that have disappeared, so having a variety of ways to keep them alive over time is always a good thing. Let's hope we still keep experts able to graft roses commercially for the foreseeable future!
Cynthia
You're welcome, Jackie. If it is as over cast and chilly there now as it is here, you won't have much, if any, bleeding. Let the sun shine ON the cane and the air temp rise into the high seventies or above and the bleeding should start like a hose. That is what I have seen on every root stock I've budded to here once I've severed the top growth from above the inserted buds. "Pruned" cane ends work the same way, except for possibly the rate and quantity of flow which should be determined by the gauge of the cane and the genetics of the variety. Thicker canes flow more sap. IXL, Pink Clouds and Fortuniana flow much more sap than the modern rose seedlings I have pressed into use for later budding needs. The more vigorous a grower the plant is, the higher the sap flow rate it has as that is what drives growth. Kim
OK - at best the cut cane about which I am speaking gets only filtered sunlight, and as you said right now it is not getting any. WIth winter finally showing up here (they are predicting 3 storms with possible rain in the next week here), I am hoping that it will not bleed at all, and next Spring will put out new growth. I will keep an eye on it. Thanks so much for the explanation - I am so happy that it is apparently alive.
Jackie
We planted a grafted (Pickering/R. multiflora rootstock) SdBB in our garden around 2 years ago. I am 6 ft 5 and it is taller than I am, perhaps 7 feet. When we deadhead, we take off 2-3 ft of rose cane,hoping it will produce flowers at a lower height, but it wants to throw up 3 feet of new cane before producting a flower-therefore, it cycles more slowly than most of our roses. The flowers are 4-6 inches across and do have a nice scent. This variety is extremely vigorous here with healthy foliage. We are planning on moving it to a less prominent location on our propert and replace it with 2 smaller rose plants.
I put this one in as well this spring, and since I pinch off blooms in the first year all I can comment on is the foliage, but of course that's the relevant part for BS questions. I can't tell cercospora and BS apart, but we get both of them to some extent I think, and I agree with the other posters that Pink Enchantment stayed nicely clean while others nearby faltered. Our BS pressure isn't nearly as bad as the East Coast, but I'd give this one two thumbs up for disease resistance, at least as far as these two conditions go.
Cynthia
Trospero:
"I have a R. arkansana grown from seed that flowers in 3 or 4 flushes per growing season; the final one usually in early October. In breeding, this trait vanishes when crossed with modern roses of any kind. I never did find a mate for it that passed on this reblooming trait. It would likely require several generations of careful selection, but I gave up breeding before I could pursue that idea."
My readings have led me to the conclusion that one can't get juvenile rebloom out of a native without multiple generations, as you say, and that if one wants to exceed 50% native (and thus have a good shot at rose rosette resistance, among other things), it would balloon into a huge project. I was thinking about it differently. Rather than trying to mix some native into garden roses, I was wondering how good of a garden rose could be made out of natives. Though your White Rabbit arkansana (or my reblooming californica or palustris) would be incompatible with chinensis rebloom, they might not be with each others', or with that of other sorts of extended bloomers and adult rebloomers (spithamea, pomifera/borissovae, damascena, musk, banksia, etc.) Palustris x virginiana blooms twice, as does setigera x gallica, if Baltimore Belle's ancestry is to be believed, so it doesn't seem like an impossible goal.
Basically I'm just chewing on the problem of how to breed out the suckering without losing what they already have going for them, including rebloom. Your arkansana might not be too bad that way, but californica can eat a yard pretty quickly. I could just graft native rebloomers onto setigera rootstock and be done with it -- I admit I have some setigera seeds in the fridge, and am considering trying it -- but that seems more like a workaround than an ideal solution. The non-chinensis rebloom/extended bloom mechanisms are just so poorly explored it's hard to guess what breeding approach might solve the suckering without killing the blooming season.
In a way, it's similar to the question I face using Nightmoss as breeding stock. Neither of its parents rebloom, and it doesn't rebloom, but a seedling of it does, and a cross of it with a flush-blooming found rose does. Those two comprise all of its known progeny. Nuits de Young and Tuscany Superb have produced one reblooming offspring each, but their single blooming progeny are far more common. So what's lurking in Nightmoss, is it damascena rebloom, chinensis rebloom, the rare but undeniable gallica rebloom? Two or more of the above?
Mama Luymans (Gruss an Teplitz x Aimable Rouge) reblooms, though Aimable Rouge doesn't look chinensis, and seems too old to contain any. Baltimore Belle, Stanwell Perpetual, Paula Vapelle, and a number of other chinensis-free rebloomers, shouldn't. If the Portland Rose is really an F1 of gallica x damask, it shouldn't. For that matter, musk x gallica shouldn't, nor should its offspring R. damascena. More to the point, my palustris has stipules that are a little wide for the species, and its prickles aren't too hooked, but I still have no clue why it's in bloom in middle of November.
I guess there's nothing more that I can do, than to place my bets on certain combinations, and see what happens. Like, if I tried Souvenir de Brod x Nightmoss, I suspect I might get some rebloomers in the batch, but I couldn't tell you what kind(s) of rebloom it would be, why it had it/them, or how to extend the result to other crosses. Maybe that's as good as it gets when you're out of the chinensis mainstream.
Cynthia, I looked into the two Fairy Tale roses you mentioned and OMG! They are absolutely beautiful. Thank you so much for suggesting them.
Iris_gal I totally agree with you on Molineux. It's color is a hard yellow. Not a bad rose or color at all, but I wouldn't add it to a bed of pastels.
It's funny, like you I have picked up a perennial or shrub before and marched around a nursery holding it against other plants I consider as possible combinations. One time a fellow gardener and I got kinda carried away and had a whole perennial grouping worked out with gallon size potted plants before we realized we had an audience of the amused nursery owner and several other customers. The owner told me later that she sold two complete sets of our little layout exercise...lol So yes, she didn't mind at all!
Meredith, thank you for suggesting Anne Hathaway and Sans Souci... I want them both!!! Sans Souci for its incredible color and shape, not to mention the name. Anne Hathaway has a great "presence" from the pics I saw online... I am not sure how healthy she will be though. Much as I like Harkness roses, they tend to not be the healthiest or hardiest roses in my corner of the country. It would be great if she were an exception. Maybe being planted close to the house would help in the hardiness department. Sigh... so many great choices... I fear for the evergreen yew shrubs further down the line of my foundation planting...at this rate I will have the foundation beds all along my house filled before we hit Christmas...lol
You are all so wonderful generously recommending roses that could fit my dream bed... how cool is that?!
Hi Marc
Glad you have more rose ideas than you can use - now you need to make more rose beds to put them in (smile)! You've gotten some great suggestions as well from other folks, and I thought I'd add my two cents about height or hardiness in my zone.
Ambridge Rose is rock solid hardy and a nice bloomer, but gets at least 4-5' for me, and that's true in two different spots in my yard
Sans Souci sounds like it would be worth a try - I don't have that one but I have plenty of Barni roses in my yard that come through the winters fine. You might want to look at Antico Amore, that a friend in Omaha swears by (it's a nice medium pink, and not too tall). Anna Fendi is a nice apricot that fades to cream, and Stile 800 is an apricot that mostly stays apricot and it's in the 3-4' range (of the two, I prefer the latter)
Paul Bocuse is lovely and an intriguing mix of apricot and yellow, but I think it'll get too tall. It's a survivor in my zone 4 pocket in front of my house, but tends to be at least 5' even after being trimmed to the ground last spring
Of course we want pictures when you're done!
Cynthia