22,153 Garden Web Discussions | Roses

One more question & comment:

Question - who? What rose is it?

Comment - like others here, I have many many times replanted roses in my garden in the same place as others, and no problems. For some reason I do not understand, this is apparently a problem in the UK, but not elsewhere, absent obvious diseases.

Jackie

If the other two roses are different varieties you can't compare them. Each variety of rose grows at it's own pace. That one Austin may just be one that is a slower grower and will take longer to develop. If the canes are plump and green and the leaves are not wilting the rose is fine. Just be patient with it.

Lyn,

This is how I interpreted my bad experience with early-winter topping: the plants were semi-dormant and so didn't have their immune systems active, but it was just warm enough that botrytis fungus (my guess as to what it was) could germinate and spread. It started in the cut cane ends and ran a foot or so down the canes, blackening the bark. It wasn't a big deal because I would have pruned that much off in spring anyway, but it scared me away from the practice. (I might do it again only if a heavy ice storm impends.) If I had pruned severely instead of topping, I might have lost some plants in this episode.

As you say, the conditions that led to the problem are not going to occur everywhere and often.

Personally I don't plant or move anything in the fall or winter. I wait for early spring. I've had very bad luck with them dieing over winter when I did try it. For some reason they don't seem to settle in very well and never come back in the spring. Don't ask me to give you a scientific explanation because I can't. I just know from my own experience that it has never worked for me. Fall planting is money wasted for me.

I don't prune anything in the fall either. We bounce back and forth from warm to cold for a long period of time. For example, today the high is 55, veritably balmy, Saturday our high will be 26. It's been back and forth like this for weeks now. Every time it gets too warm for a few days they try to grow which isn't a good idea because then the temps drop again suddenly and that new growth is toast. I want them to store energy not use it on useless growth the will surely die off. Pruning them makes them want to grow even more so I just don't do it.

I think some of you are HT-aphobic, lol. I have dozens of them, both in pots and in the ground, and they winter very well. The pots do get protection but none of the ones in the ground get any protection at all. Many of them are green to the tips come spring. They're like any other class of roses. Some of them are quite hardy and some of them are tender. Not even all OGRs and shurb roses are winter hardy. The trick is to find the ones that are hardy for you and that takes time and trial and error. I could tell you what winters easily for me but it might not in your yard. And what winters blissfully for you may croak it's first winter in mine.

Michael is correct, of course. Less water evaporates, so the roses need less watering to get the same amount.

It is, also of course, important for roses and other garden plants to be well hydrated to survive sudden freezes, at least in warm climates where they are not dormant.

In my warm climate, we just got a warning that our nighttime temps are going to plunge from the low 50s/high 40s to the high 20s tonight. That is not unheard of, but the last time it happened was years ago. It kills citrus, and melts many tender perennials we are accustomed to overwinter in our gardens. 25 years ago we had nighttime temps in the 20s for two weeks without stopping, and it killed whole hillsides of eucalyptus trees and ice plant growing along the freeway all over the county - we are just not set up for that cold of temps.

So, last evening there I was in the dark, frantically watering pots and bringing a couple of beloved succulents (like the Christmas cactus which is in full bloom right now) into the glassed in back porch.

Those of you who live in colder climates will laugh, I know, but people here are not accustomed to the cold either - my DH and I are going on our normal three times a week bike ride today, and I plan to wear my one and only snow parka!

Jackie

Michael,

Thanks. I didn't realize that the difference could be so great.

Jackie,

We got down to mid 30's last night. Suppose to be colder tonight....So, I have already planned to go home this afternoon and water. I only have 30 bushes, so it probably won't take as much time as yours take to water.
Thanks a bunch,

andrea

Our winters are rather wet--I've had the best results just wrapping our roses with burlap in late November or December. I no longer have to worry about the filling material freezing into a solid block of unusable material since I no longer fill the burlap with anything. With more than 200 roses that survive every year, I've been paring down my winter tasks so I can grow more roses.

Yep, I definitely agree with Zac - I have protected tender palms and have simply used hessian or fleece on its own without any organic filling. Horticultural fleece alone raised the temperature by 3 degrees.

Great job Seil!

Thanks, redwolf!

Your roses should be fine at 36 degrees, Ingrid. That will hardly slow them down. You really don't get much damage until the temps get down around 25 degrees.

Diane, the teens will do some damage but if it's not for a prolonged period your roses should survive it. We get weeks of temps in the teens in January and February and that's what can cause a lot of cane die back.

Thanks, Jim!

I get several basal canes each spring and remove the weaker ones. The pic is from June 2012, and the mild 2011/12 winter and a burlap wrap meant that this rose doubled in mass this past summer.

If you see the thick bare cane curving up and back in on the left, it has a thick lateral that pushes up to the right--these two canes (really just one) and another thick basal cane, which originates on the left and crosses behind this "Y" cane, supply 75% of the mass of the rose.

I have yet to hard prune any canes larger than a pencil. As you may notice, I let several small basal canes/laterals help fill in the void of buds at the bottom of the woody main canes. These are pruned back slightly after flowering.

Without looking at summer 2013 photos (my phone's dead), I let a very thick basal grow to about 4' on the left side I think from behind the trellis before bending back in toward the structure, and let a similar basal grow from the right side...it was oriented more forward-facing before it was trained back to the structure.

These main canes zig-zag across/through/sometimes behind the 6' tall trellis and this summer I let laterals grow in a sort of fan from the top of the trellis to attach to the deck railing above.

I guess the question that lingers from my earlier research is: can a cane get "too thick"? That is, is there a point when the very thickness of the cane inhibits nutrient uptake or risks cracking under stress of wind/cold/its own weight?

I let those new basals grow anticipating that 2-3 big-daddy canes will crack or fail in some way in the next few seasons, and I want to have some mass ready to camouflage the loss. I pruned the other basal shoots to encourage growth in the upper laterals. Does that make sense?

I can't say that I've noticed fewer buds on laterals from the larger canes at any height.

Such a beautiful rose. And I hang my climbers, too!

In theory you can plant them a foot deep but it depends on the soil. The better the soil, the deeper and stronger the root system. The fine hair roots can be deep as well if the soil is very rich. Here in SoCal my grafts are at least two inches down but after a few years of soil building they will be 10 inches or more. I've dug up roses where the original graft which is almost unrecognizable is one to two feet down.

The deeper down in the soil the less oxygen there is. Plant roots need oxygen as well as water and nutrients.

thanks. im trying to learn to be a gardener that can successfully grow something or sustain and make them thrive...but alas. its kinda frustrating

Start with something easier...maybe some annuals from the garden store. I don't know what grows in your area, but cosmos are always great (especially the pink shades) and resist almost anything, except frost. Have fun in the garden...we're getting snow today :)

Hi Grace

Michael and floridarose are better sources of info about BS and Belinda's dream in their humid climates, since we have a relatively dry climate here. However I did want to mention it overwinters for me like a champ in the zone 4 pocket of my yard, so you shouldn't have hardiness issues in zone 6. As Michael said, it's not entirely cane hardy for me in this spot, but still maintains a good 2 feet of healthy cane after the winter which is plenty for me.

In my climate I don't notice it being a particular offender in BS or balling, but my climate differs from yours.

Cynthia

It hated here. I also received several reports of it hating the climate around Long Island Sound. It is probably an area very similar to where Michael lives. The issue does seem to be a lack of real summer heat as much as anything.

interesting comments, dolphy10. thanks!

This is all very interesting, dolphy10. Yet, I'm surprised that the IRS, Wisconsin state tax commission, state labor commission, and a whole host of state and local legal entities haven't become involved in this set up, if what you say has been going on all this time. Perhaps some whistle blowing is in order. Diane

Keep in mind those roses that will have prickles (thorns) down lower on the plant but the cutting stems that have few or no prickles. There are quite a few of those.

Again though it matters where you garden--performance varies widely due to climate.

Patty, many of the old garden roses are referred to as once-bloomers because they have only one flush of flowers per year, usually in spring or early summer. Roses like gallicas, damasks, and albas. The rest of the year they don't bloom. They are often extremely fragrant, with damasks in particular being famous for fragrance (and still grown for perfume-making). There are some exceptions that do rebloom, as in they will have more than one flush of flowers in the year. Most modern roses, such as hybrid teas are repeat bloomers. With once-blooming just think of a cherry tree--it has one bloom cycle each year and then sets fruit afterwards.

Below is a link with a description of some of the old garden roses. It's a little out of date but much of the info is still valid.

As to the label, well they aren't standardized.;) Usually they do give the name of the rose but they may or may not state the class or whether the rose reblooms (in the same year). Many of the roses sold in big box stores particularly are modern roses, such as hybrid teas or floribundas, which repeat flower, so most people assume any rose they buy will rebloom.

Even if you no longer have the label, you might be able to ask the store where you bought the roses what varieties they carried. Maybe they'll know.;) Or you can also try posting some pictures here of the overall plants, with some closeups of the leaves and the canes.

Melissa

Here is a link that might be useful: An old garden rose primer.

susan9santabarbara, apparently I should of documented my statements.

"When dissolved in water it will slowly decompose, releasing chlorine, oxygen and sodium and hydroxide ions.

4 NaClO + 2 H2O â 4 Na+ + 4 OHâ + 2 Cl2 + O2

The above is from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hypochlorite
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Now the word "slowly" is a relative term. Your use of the word "hydrolysis" is just another word for my (water decomposition is a reaction) statement: " Water is reacting with the NaClO to decompose (break apart the NaClO).
One can calculate the:
% hydrolysis = 0.17%
Go to the section starting: "The percent hydrolysis for the hypochlorite ion may be represented as:"
in the link below: http://www.austincc.edu/dlyon/gen_chem_1_summer04/Chapter%2018b%20acid%20base%20equilibrium%20sp08.pdf

--------------------------------

As I originally stated, in commercial bleach NaOH is added to slow down the decomposition. In the above equation, adding more of a product drives the reaction to the left.

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Concerning my statement that "practically, in water solution, it will be an oxidizing agent with normal naturally occuring household type compounds.". Which you apparently feel is not sufficiently accurate for the present discussion. Perhaps you can give us some examples of "normal naturally occuring household type compounds." where contact with household bleach would result in the household bleach acting as a reducing agent.

Here is a link that might be useful: calculation of hydrolysis

This post was edited by henry_kuska on Sun, Dec 1, 13 at 1:42

H.Kuska comment: I hope the following explanation is sufficient as to why I feel that I can safely make the statement:

"practically, in water solution, it will be an oxidizing agent with normal naturally occuring household type compounds."

"As an oxidizing agent [edit] Hypochlorite is the strongest oxidizing agent of the chlorine oxyanions. This can be seen by comparing the standard half cell potentials across the series; "

The above quote taken from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypochlorite

Acidic reaction
H+ + HOCl + eâ â ýCl2(g) + H2O
Eð (V) +1.63

Neutral/basic reaction
ClOâ + H2O + 2eâ â Clâ + 2OHâÂÂ
Eð (V) +0.89 "

H. Kuska comment: The standard half cell electrode potentials are utilized to predict (a first approximation) in which direction two half reactions will go ( the half reaction with the more positive or less negative Eð (V) will go from left to right - will act as an oxidizing agent while the half reaction that is less positive or more negative will go from right to left - will act as the reducing agent.

Thus, in the table given at the following link, the neutral/basic ClO- half reaction is predicted (first approximation) to go to the right when combined with half reactions less positive than +0.89 volts (we are only interested in other half reactions in neutral/basic water solution, i.e. the presence of the symbol aq or H2O but no H+ on the left).

This Table will also give you an idea of the type of chemicals that can force Hypochlorite to be a reducing agent in neutral/ basic solution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_electrode_potential_(data_page)

Here is a link that might be useful: table of electrode potentials