22,152 Garden Web Discussions | Roses

I get several basal canes each spring and remove the weaker ones. The pic is from June 2012, and the mild 2011/12 winter and a burlap wrap meant that this rose doubled in mass this past summer.

If you see the thick bare cane curving up and back in on the left, it has a thick lateral that pushes up to the right--these two canes (really just one) and another thick basal cane, which originates on the left and crosses behind this "Y" cane, supply 75% of the mass of the rose.

I have yet to hard prune any canes larger than a pencil. As you may notice, I let several small basal canes/laterals help fill in the void of buds at the bottom of the woody main canes. These are pruned back slightly after flowering.

Without looking at summer 2013 photos (my phone's dead), I let a very thick basal grow to about 4' on the left side I think from behind the trellis before bending back in toward the structure, and let a similar basal grow from the right side...it was oriented more forward-facing before it was trained back to the structure.

These main canes zig-zag across/through/sometimes behind the 6' tall trellis and this summer I let laterals grow in a sort of fan from the top of the trellis to attach to the deck railing above.

I guess the question that lingers from my earlier research is: can a cane get "too thick"? That is, is there a point when the very thickness of the cane inhibits nutrient uptake or risks cracking under stress of wind/cold/its own weight?

I let those new basals grow anticipating that 2-3 big-daddy canes will crack or fail in some way in the next few seasons, and I want to have some mass ready to camouflage the loss. I pruned the other basal shoots to encourage growth in the upper laterals. Does that make sense?

I can't say that I've noticed fewer buds on laterals from the larger canes at any height.

Such a beautiful rose. And I hang my climbers, too!

In theory you can plant them a foot deep but it depends on the soil. The better the soil, the deeper and stronger the root system. The fine hair roots can be deep as well if the soil is very rich. Here in SoCal my grafts are at least two inches down but after a few years of soil building they will be 10 inches or more. I've dug up roses where the original graft which is almost unrecognizable is one to two feet down.

The deeper down in the soil the less oxygen there is. Plant roots need oxygen as well as water and nutrients.

thanks. im trying to learn to be a gardener that can successfully grow something or sustain and make them thrive...but alas. its kinda frustrating

Start with something easier...maybe some annuals from the garden store. I don't know what grows in your area, but cosmos are always great (especially the pink shades) and resist almost anything, except frost. Have fun in the garden...we're getting snow today :)

Hi Grace

Michael and floridarose are better sources of info about BS and Belinda's dream in their humid climates, since we have a relatively dry climate here. However I did want to mention it overwinters for me like a champ in the zone 4 pocket of my yard, so you shouldn't have hardiness issues in zone 6. As Michael said, it's not entirely cane hardy for me in this spot, but still maintains a good 2 feet of healthy cane after the winter which is plenty for me.

In my climate I don't notice it being a particular offender in BS or balling, but my climate differs from yours.

Cynthia

It hated here. I also received several reports of it hating the climate around Long Island Sound. It is probably an area very similar to where Michael lives. The issue does seem to be a lack of real summer heat as much as anything.

interesting comments, dolphy10. thanks!

This is all very interesting, dolphy10. Yet, I'm surprised that the IRS, Wisconsin state tax commission, state labor commission, and a whole host of state and local legal entities haven't become involved in this set up, if what you say has been going on all this time. Perhaps some whistle blowing is in order. Diane

Keep in mind those roses that will have prickles (thorns) down lower on the plant but the cutting stems that have few or no prickles. There are quite a few of those.

Again though it matters where you garden--performance varies widely due to climate.

Patty, many of the old garden roses are referred to as once-bloomers because they have only one flush of flowers per year, usually in spring or early summer. Roses like gallicas, damasks, and albas. The rest of the year they don't bloom. They are often extremely fragrant, with damasks in particular being famous for fragrance (and still grown for perfume-making). There are some exceptions that do rebloom, as in they will have more than one flush of flowers in the year. Most modern roses, such as hybrid teas are repeat bloomers. With once-blooming just think of a cherry tree--it has one bloom cycle each year and then sets fruit afterwards.

Below is a link with a description of some of the old garden roses. It's a little out of date but much of the info is still valid.

As to the label, well they aren't standardized.;) Usually they do give the name of the rose but they may or may not state the class or whether the rose reblooms (in the same year). Many of the roses sold in big box stores particularly are modern roses, such as hybrid teas or floribundas, which repeat flower, so most people assume any rose they buy will rebloom.

Even if you no longer have the label, you might be able to ask the store where you bought the roses what varieties they carried. Maybe they'll know.;) Or you can also try posting some pictures here of the overall plants, with some closeups of the leaves and the canes.

Melissa

Here is a link that might be useful: An old garden rose primer.

susan9santabarbara, apparently I should of documented my statements.

"When dissolved in water it will slowly decompose, releasing chlorine, oxygen and sodium and hydroxide ions.

4 NaClO + 2 H2O â 4 Na+ + 4 OHâ + 2 Cl2 + O2

The above is from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hypochlorite
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Now the word "slowly" is a relative term. Your use of the word "hydrolysis" is just another word for my (water decomposition is a reaction) statement: " Water is reacting with the NaClO to decompose (break apart the NaClO).
One can calculate the:
% hydrolysis = 0.17%
Go to the section starting: "The percent hydrolysis for the hypochlorite ion may be represented as:"
in the link below: http://www.austincc.edu/dlyon/gen_chem_1_summer04/Chapter%2018b%20acid%20base%20equilibrium%20sp08.pdf

--------------------------------

As I originally stated, in commercial bleach NaOH is added to slow down the decomposition. In the above equation, adding more of a product drives the reaction to the left.

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Concerning my statement that "practically, in water solution, it will be an oxidizing agent with normal naturally occuring household type compounds.". Which you apparently feel is not sufficiently accurate for the present discussion. Perhaps you can give us some examples of "normal naturally occuring household type compounds." where contact with household bleach would result in the household bleach acting as a reducing agent.

Here is a link that might be useful: calculation of hydrolysis

This post was edited by henry_kuska on Sun, Dec 1, 13 at 1:42

H.Kuska comment: I hope the following explanation is sufficient as to why I feel that I can safely make the statement:

"practically, in water solution, it will be an oxidizing agent with normal naturally occuring household type compounds."

"As an oxidizing agent [edit] Hypochlorite is the strongest oxidizing agent of the chlorine oxyanions. This can be seen by comparing the standard half cell potentials across the series; "

The above quote taken from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypochlorite

Acidic reaction
H+ + HOCl + eâ â ýCl2(g) + H2O
Eð (V) +1.63

Neutral/basic reaction
ClOâ + H2O + 2eâ â Clâ + 2OHâÂÂ
Eð (V) +0.89 "

H. Kuska comment: The standard half cell electrode potentials are utilized to predict (a first approximation) in which direction two half reactions will go ( the half reaction with the more positive or less negative Eð (V) will go from left to right - will act as an oxidizing agent while the half reaction that is less positive or more negative will go from right to left - will act as the reducing agent.

Thus, in the table given at the following link, the neutral/basic ClO- half reaction is predicted (first approximation) to go to the right when combined with half reactions less positive than +0.89 volts (we are only interested in other half reactions in neutral/basic water solution, i.e. the presence of the symbol aq or H2O but no H+ on the left).

This Table will also give you an idea of the type of chemicals that can force Hypochlorite to be a reducing agent in neutral/ basic solution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_electrode_potential_(data_page)

Here is a link that might be useful: table of electrode potentials

Thanks so much for the insights! Sounds so far like I should stick to sunny spots for the smoky reds.

How about Brothers Grimm Fairy Tale? It's described as shade tolerant.. Does that imply it will be happier in the shade? Based on colours, I was thinking of planting it near my Julia Child and About Face - which are squarely in the sun.

Thanks so much for the insights! Sounds so far like I should stick to sunny spots for the smoky reds.

How about Brothers Grimm Fairy Tale? It's described as shade tolerant.. Does that imply it will be happier in the shade? Based on colours, I was thinking of planting it near my Julia Child and About Face - which are squarely in the sun.

I have Firefighter,Mr Lincoln and Papa Melland, I love them all. But Papa Melland's scent is much stronger than the other two, and the dark red color is really amazing.
Here is a picture of papa in vase.

This post was edited by Smoky88 on Sun, Dec 1, 13 at 4:49

Firefight (Sorry the picture was taken by Ipad not very clear)

This post was edited by Smoky88 on Sun, Dec 1, 13 at 4:43

Brighton isn't too far from me. I'm in St. Clair Shores and my ground is just starting to freeze. You should be OK to dig. Bury them as deep as you can and make sure you put markers all around them so you can find them next spring when you want to dig them out. I buried some seedling pots one year and didn't mark them well enough. When I went to dig them out I sliced one in half with the shovel!

Thanks for the info. Wish I would have done this sooner just ran out of time. Good idea about the markers!

Kim, thanks for the heads up that it might not be easy to root. It puts out lots of cane, so at least I have plentiful material to work with.

As to whether it climbs or not, I don't mind which it does, I'm just curious about what happens. I would actually like to have a shorter shrubbier bush (which was what I thought I was getting when I ordered it) and if I could create one from my own plant I'd be happy, but I'd not mind having more of what I've got either. In fact I just ran into an article of yours on Iceberg that suggested its cane length was similarly variable, and wood rooted from the climber might decide to shrub, or the shrub might decide to climb, it happened both ways.

I also remember reading somewhere that Rouletti/ Highway 290 pink buttons is genetically identical to Old Blush, which, if true, means that the same genes can express themselves in very different forms. It makes sense to me that some plants should be more variable in this way than others.

This plant has been in two locations, one full sun, one mostly shade, in neither case supported, and in both places threw long, graceful canes in a dramatically airy way. It will be distinctively different if it stops at three or four feet in any location. At the same time it is so healthy it is hard to stop myself from trying to create more of it.

You're welcome Starmade. It isn't really the "same genes" expressing themselves differently. The "genetic fabric" is unstable, permitting it to partially "unravel", reshuffle itself into different variations, so one instance might be a more dwarf, shrubby type while others are much more elongated, "climbing". The variations can also encompass timing and density of flowering, particularly with the larger types, though some mini climbing sports have been once flowering. Sequoia promoted Cl. Cal Poly instead of Cl. Rise'n'Shine because the Cal Poly mutation was continuous flowering where the Rise'n'Shine mutant primarily flowered in spring to early summer.

There are actually quite a few sources of miniaturization, not just from Chinensis. Rouletii may be extremely similar to Old Blush, but not genetically "identical" because of the triggering of the genetic dwarfing factor. Peace sported to numerous color variations; climbing forms and even a miniature! If they were genetically "identical", they would look "identical" to one another. They can easily share virtually identical genetics with only one or two genes expressing themselves differently and appear virtually the same, or extremely different.

So far, I'm not aware of the flowering habit of Softee varying much depending upon the plant habit, but, given sufficient number of plants and mutations, it should be entirely possible for it to produce greater or lesser flowering examples.

I grew Softee in a fifteen gallon can for many years, where it quickly grew through the drain holes into the ground with extremely thick roots (one nearly two inches in diameter!). I used it for breeding and hadn't an appropriate place in the ground to grow it. The plant was easily three by three feet, though it frequently shot out taller, thicker canes which would eventually branch into huge inflorescences. Even stressed in a can which was rather quickly too small for it, in severely depleated soil and frequently water and food stressed, it was seldom without at least some bloom. When I gave it to a more "loving" home, it required a lot of digging to loosen it from the soil. Ants had colonized the remaining soil, so I completely bare rooted the plant and left it soaking in a large pail of water until it traveled to its new home. Those roots continue pushing new plants out of the ground, providing more to place in other deserving homes. I think you'll find it as durable and persistent as most of the other Moore creations as long as it really establishes itself first. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Baby Peace