22,795 Garden Web Discussions | Roses

I agree with Jackie. Cut it way back. It will need time to regrow its root system and you don't need long canes competing with roots. I have always cut the canes back when moving climbers.

Exactly what I thought - just wanted to hear from the experts! Thanks!
Judith

It does well here in the heat and humidity of Florida and is a heavy bloomer so far.

SOUVENIR DE LA MALMAISON is beloved throughout the Mid-Atlantic and the Deep South. It does particularly well in heat and humidity when other roses fail. It is also more resistant to black spot than most modern roses. This petite Bourbon is considered a classic and a most have for those who adore Old Garden Roses. Although short (it tops out at 3 feet and just as wide) it is vigorous and grows well on its own roots. You should definitely get it.

Image of SdlM by Archduke-z7b-8a-DFX-TX at Hortiplex

I've had a huge climbing Pink Peace on the back garden wall for 15 years. After the initial flush it produces some crazy long new branches during the summer, maybe 7 to 10 feet long. I've found that if I cut the tip, and tie down the end lower than the spot where it emerged from, it will flower like a pegged rose, all along the cane, a couple months later. This is in Bakersfield, where we have a very long growing season.

IMO, 'Peace, Cl.' is magnificent -- superior in every way to the bush form. I've always been mystified by the fact that the bush form was always a BS magnet in my garden, while its climbing sport remains healthy and largely disease free all season. I know a couple of other gardeners here in coastal Carolina who've made the same observation. It seems to me that when 'Peace' produced this sport, more was gained than simply a propensity to climb.

I was surprised (and envious) to read above about a 'Peace, Cl' that blooms prolifically all season long. My plant blooms heavily in the spring and (sometimes) throws a moderate number of blooms in early to mid autumn. The climbing form of 'Peace' is indeed a rampant grower -- which, I think, has contributed to its less than stellar reputation. Some gardeners try to keep it in bounds by pruning it heavily, then complain bitterly because it doesn't produce. 'Peace, Cl' blooms only on old wood. Prune it heavily and regularly and you're guaranteed a bloom-free plant. If you don't have room for a magnificent (albeit essentially once-blooming), very rampant climber, forget about 'Peace, Cl'.

Another climbing HT sport that I've been very impressed with is 'Gruss an Aachen, Cl'. Roses Unlimited is now the only U.S. source for that one.

Isn't Bloodmeal the organic form of nitrogen? Not sure what you would use for the potassium.

There is a version of Osmacote which is high in nitrogen--like 19--and low in phosphate and potassium--like 4 or 5, if I remember correctly. It is one of the time-release fertilizers. Read the panel on the back to get the right version.

Kate

Blood meal for nitrogen and maybe banana peelings for potassium? There is also potassium phalsphate( Sp?). That's all I can think of ATM.

When we had our 3 story house painted we cut down all of the roses which were climbing on it (6 - 3 of which were huge monsters) to about 6-7 feet high. Then we wrapped them in burlap to protect them. The scaffolding was up for 5 weeks. By the end of the 5 weeks most of the roses had put out growth THROUGH the burlap! WIthin 1-2 years the roses were all as big as they had been before, and some of them looked better. So, when you or whoever get ready to stain your fence, you could wrap your roses in burlap - they should do fine that way for 2 months. Just a thought -

Jackie

Great idea, Jackie. They would only need to be wrapped for a few hours! I will try that. It is better than a second pruning, I think.

Rose de Rescht grew well in my zone 7a garden for over 20 years. The only thing that finally did it in was RRV (rrd).......Maryl

I find the ARS rose ratings to be a concise description of the quality and vigor of a rose.

Most roses rated 8.0 and higher are really good roses -- strong, vigorous plants and high-quality blooms.

Those rated lower than 6.0 tend to be problematic in one way or another.

Personally, I'm pleased when a rose I like has a high rating, but I also have many lower-rated roses that I love just as much.

Hello Christopher. Thanks for the post. They do look like the ones on my rose stem. I might hv better chances of getting something to get rid of them...Daughter is going to be thrilled :)

Thanks a lot!
Madhu.

If they are what my links showed, then I don't think you want to get rid of them, being as they feed on aphids. If it was me, I'd just leave it alone until the plant seemed to be showing signs of harm or damage if I wasn't sure what they are. BTW, do they ever move?

:-)

~Christopher

Diane, I think that the fact that the soil was built up over many years in my garden in Connecticut was the most important factor. It is really all about organics. As for triacontanol, it is a miracle substance apparently and it is available although very expensive. It has to be mixed with something that it will dissolve in and then with water and used as a foliar spray. I've never tried it and would be curious if anyone here ever has.

I'm in SoCal and would not dream of fooling around with alfalfa tea. Too much work, too heavy to water all the roses. I scatter pellets and they break down eventually. The alfalfa meal purchased in nurseries probably enters the soil faster, but it also blows around a lot when being applied.

I guess either way works.

You're welcome! Exogenous seed, those formed outside the hip itself, stand as good a chance of being viable as those inside the hip. Often, it simply means there wasn't enough room inside for them. I'd plant them anyway. You never know what will come up. Good luck with them! Kim

This post was edited by roseseek on Thu, Mar 27, 14 at 13:17

Thanks again for the helpful information Kim! I can't wait to see my first rose seedlings. :D

Most of the references I can find discuss root application (hydroponics or soil drenching). I wonder if foliar applications can be effective and if they might have some negative effect by limiting the ability of the leaf to perform its functions.

Will do a little testing and report back although a minimally scientific test will have to wait until next year when I will be able to obtain from the same source multiple copies of a rose known to mildew badly in my garden (Duchesse de Brabant springs to mind).

The concoction I have in hand is very alkaline (pH > 9) even when diluted at the recommended rate and I wonder if this property might just have some effect regardless of the silica content. The same might apply to the potassium carbonate that is bound with the silicon oxide.
Nik

This is a research leaf application paper.

http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/35/4/773.full.pdf

Here is a link that might be useful: link for above

Looking good, mailshadow!

Kate

I remember that sea of orange livin easy roses you had before pappu . Best of luck with your new garden! :)

Let me expand further on the topic...

I use neem oil from Ahimsa alternative - http://www.neemresource.com/
I buy my fish/seaweed hydrolysate from neptune's harvest
http://www.neptunesharvest.com/fs-191.html

or I buy from brown's for just straight fish hydrolysate
http://brownsfishfertilizer.com/products-page/

Some notes about using...

Neem - you have to keep it cold, I split the gallon container into smaller bottles (it hardens when cold, so you'll have to either dunk the gallon container in a sink of hot water or leave it sitting out on a warm day) - Shake it thoroughly and divide into very tightly closing smaller bottles.

When you plan on spraying - take the bottle out, put it in a sink of hot water until it returns to liquid state. I usually pour the portion I need (.5 fl oz per gallon - a tablespoon) into a bucket and then return the bottle to the fridge, add my 1 ounce (1/8th cup per gallon of water) fish hydrolysate (be sure to thoroughly shake the container before measuring it out - be warned - this stuff is smelly), and scant tablespoon of biodegradable soap - I get 7th generation - it's cheap & readily available.

Then I add about half the water I need and stir it several times in one direction and then switch directions with a dedicated whisk. Pour into sprayer add remaining amount of water needed, close your sprayer, shake thoroughly and start spraying (make sure their are no oil droplets at the top of the solution - neem has to be thoroughly mixed to be effective - think like salad dressing - who likes separated salad dressing? yuck.

I prefer spraying right before sundown or even at night (with a flashlight... my neighbors naturally think I'm nuts) and to the point of runoff. Be sure to get undersides of leaves.

Why near or at night? This is when the stomata are opening up on the plant - in other words, the pores of the plant are open. You'll get the maximum uptake and benefit from spraying at this time and it gives the maximum time for the plant to avoid sunburn. I do this about once a week during times of high disease pressure and then back off to bi-weekly when disease pressure goes down - if it rains, I spray the next day or as soon as possible (assuming it isn't just going to rain the next day... then I wait)

As always - be sure to test an inconspicuous area of the plant and allow a week to make sure their aren't burn issues.

If you, after a few weeks, aren't seeing an improvement in plant health - up your spray concentration by half a percent. Per gallon, for example, if you started at .5% dilution - go up to 1% (1 fl ounces per gallon, 2 tablespoons).

Few other pieces of advice - this stuff is smelly. Neem has a very strong garlic-nutty smell and fish hydrolysate... well it smells like rotten fish (trust me the cold process hydrolysate smells A WHOLE lot better than the cheaper, less effective hot processed stuff... ugh). Be assured it dissipates quickly - if the scent really is bothersome you can add a drop or two of a fragrance oil - peppermint is particularly effective.

Neem and fish hydrolysate once mixed - have to be used immediately upon mixing - they break down rapidly in solution - if you sprayed everything and have some left, use it as a soil drench or spray it on something you don't normally spray. It'll be glad for it. Thoroughly rinse your sprayer after every use - I fill mine with water and just use it to water plants, silly to waste the good stuff. I try to think of it as being like licking the brownie batter off the spoon.

This should go without saying, but don't spray it on the blooms. Buds are absolutely fine - but blooms and less so buds are much more prone to phytotoxicity (burn). Do not spray during foraging times for beneficials - (shouldn't be too much of a problem at night).

DO NOT spray on host plants for butterflies/native endagered insects - Azadirachtin (the main active compound in Neem) interrupts the molting process of insects that consume it. Butterfly caterpillars, that eat and live on their respective host plants that are treated with neem (or any other spray for that matter) will die. If you don't know what that includes, I'd contact your local extension office.

You should see improvement in just about any plant you use this on. I pretty much use it on everything that isn't a host plant in my garden and this is also the same basic formulation I spray on my orchard. Also, the fish hydrolysate is more than just a sticker/carrier - it's also a fantastic fertilizer - I use the same spray formulation (1/2 fl oz neem, 1 fl oz fish per gallon) as a soil drench aka fertilizer.

Hope that answers some questions

Jordan - Organic/Holistic Orchardist and Gardener

This post was edited by jjstatz29 on Wed, Mar 26, 14 at 10:18

Michaelg - There doesn't seem to be any research on azadirachtin and blackspot.

Well, that's because azadirachtin (the primary active compound in neem oil) isn't the anti-fungal agent working within neem oil.

Neem works as a fungicide

by 1. Coating as an oil like any oil coating spray and boosting cuticle defense on the leaf surface - this can also be boosted by applying fermented compost tea of horsetail/nettles which boost silica content in leaves.

2. Secondary plant metabolites stimulate an immune response from the plants neem oil is applied to.

3. by repelling insects that spread and open wounds for disease entry

4. The fatty acids in liquid fish and neem fuel the beneficial fungal/bacterial presence that out competes the harmful types.

I should say too - Fungal defense has to start with healthy plants. Your soil needs to be supportive of beneficial mycorrhizal and saprophytic fungi so that your rose is actually able to feed properly. There are a lot of fungal/bacterial innoculants available and good mulching and regular fish/neem applications keep them fed and happy and thereby keeps your roses fed and happy.

It's surprisingly not far off from how pro-biotics benefit people when consumed and/or how proper diet can keep them in balance in people. Therein lies the problem with systemics/chemical means that indiscriminately wipe out fungal presence and/or bacterial and makes it harder for your rose to do what it wants to do - grow healthy. You're killing off the most basic part of the supply chain and creating a blank slate where disease pressure can actually be worsened and becomes dependent on regular killing applications instead of developing a culture that out competes disease pressure.

Another good example is how a sourdough starter doesn't go bad when fed regularly. The fungal presence (yeast), bacteria (lactobacillus), and enzymes (amylase,maltase, etc) stabilize the pH and overall culture and outcompete/create a hostile environment to other forms within the starter as long as they are fed regularly.

^That's the basic idea of what you want going on in your soil but (obviously) with different fungal/bacterial/enzymatic types (because I hope you aren't baking bread with your soil) and if you kill one of them off with a indiscriminate fungicide you're opening yourself up to bigger problems.

Fortunately, one of the mite experts, Marjorie Hoy is in Florida. She is: "eminent scholar and Davies, Fischer and Eckes Professor of Biological Control, Department of Entomology and Nematology, Florida Cooperative Extension Service, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida, Gainesville, FL 32611". See her article at the link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: link to Hoy's article

Thanks for the clarification Henry on the update to RRV from RRD. I was still under the impression that it was a phytoplasma that was the cause. The disease is pretty devastating, and in windy areas such as the state of Oklahoma, the mites are particularly mobile. I have saved about 15% of infected roses by catching it early and cutting off the affected cane down to the crown. However
last year it was horrible here and I managed to save none of my infected roses. Unfortunately, I don't see any easy nor desirable solution in the near future. ........Maryl

Hard to tell from the picture but here's something it could be.

Here is a link that might be useful: Oriental Beetle

Oriental beetles are voracious feeders on roses.