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zen_man

It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 28

zen_man
9 years ago

Hello everyone,


Welcome to this ongoing message thread. Once again, the previous part of this continuing series, It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 27, has become rather long and slow to load or read, with well over 100 messages, so we are continuing the series here for yet another fresh start.

The same guidelines apply here. Anything remotely related to zinnias is fine. As always, if you have any related pictures, you are invited to post them.

Winter is not far away, and I have been saving seeds from my breeder zinnias. We have already had a frost warning here, but it turned out to be a false alarm. The frost warning prompted me to cover some of my low tunnel hoops with ag-fabric to protect some breeder zinnias.

{{gwi:24779}} I will leave that fabric in place for the next frost warning. I have already planted some green seeds as part of my indoors Winter zinnia project.

{{gwi:24781}} I hope to grow two generations of zinnias indoors this Winter, like I did last year. Only this year I intend to do better in controlling the indoor zinnia pests. I have some Spinosad spray to use in my initial skirmish with thrips. If they become resistant to that, I will switch to something stronger.

I anticipate some interesting results in my indoor zinnias, because they will involve some never-done-before hybrids between Razzle Dazzle, toothy, toothy tubular, aster flowered, Whirligig, and tubular zinnias. More later.

ZM

Comments (103)

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - dang! Somehow I didn't post the main pic that I meant to. That pic in my last post with the shriveled stigma is how the stigma is supposed to look - I believe - after pollination. But in the new pic I wanted you especially to see, you can tell that the stigma is abnormal; has a sickly look with a corkscrew appearance. That's Beta's petal stigma. The other normal one posted before is Alpha's.

    Pretty color on that razzle dazzle! And I like the longer leaves as well. If it was in a landscaping situation, the longer leaves add more "weight" to the planting.

    And on that note, I'm really looking forward to this next season when I am going to concentrate my gardening energy on flowers more than vegetables.

    - Alex

    {{gwi:24864}}

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    Yes, the two stigmas on the left are seriously necrotic. And the one on the right has its tips rolling up in a weird way. Beta's stigmas merit further study, to determine what is at work here. The dead stigmas have some tiny "hairs" on them, which made me suspect a fungus, only healthy stigmas have many hair cells and those could be remnants on the dead stigmas. Your photo shows healthy hair cells on the petal edges, which is evidence of the near microscopic capabilities of your photography.

    The cause of the dead stigmas on Beta remains a mystery. Could it be a normal variation of pollination, or some villainous agent at work, like a fungus, bacteria, micro-insect, mite, nematode, or virus? I haven't heard of prions being identified on plants, or if that is even a possibility in the plant kingdom.

    I think we can rule out an invisible flower spider, that has somehow come into possession of a cloaking device. But, seriously, this is a situation that begs for some of that "situation awareness" that I am such a big fan of. Perhaps more pictures of future stigma formation on new petals of Beta?

    This is a picture of one of my opening zinnia blooms that combines characteristics of toothy petals with tubular petals in a somewhat new way, that produces a variant flower form.

    {{gwi:24866}} I just wish it would put out some pollen, or that any of my newly opening zinnias would offer some pollen. It looks like I will have to do some "petal surgery" on that one to expose the stigmas. I hope that it has stigmas. Perhaps we should add genetics as one of the possible causes of the stigma problems on your Beta. More later. Those pots aren't going to wash themselves.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - Snowing as I type this, but only slightly. Apparently the gods have decided that as they allowed us no summer to speak of, they would magnanimously hold off winter for as long as possible. But it is very close now.

    I'm also pollenless with my Beta and Alpha. When I see even a tiny grain, I try to pick it up with my brush and transfer it somewhere - anywhere! Alpha continues to have new petals unfolding on top, though the old petals are showing their age. Remembering our earlier conversation with Mister Guy, I note that Alpha is taking on a purple/bluish cast overall. It's rather pretty, and definitely sets its color apart from Beta which has been and continues to be more towards the warm salmon-y shade of pink or magenta or somewhere around there.

    And you must be getting psychic; when I checked the 'children' this morning, there was a spider! Not one of those yellow or white flower spiders, but a brown one with rather longer legs than a jumping spider. I had to use the magnifying glass just to make sure it wasn't a brown recluse. I haven't found any in the house, but John and I are convinced that it was a recluse that bit him on the leg some years back on our north porch, and it wasn't pretty. Fortunately neither of us seem to have any allergies to stings and bites, but that was certainly a nasty bite. Oh, and the spider is still on Alpha - I told him he could stay if he behaved himself.

    Will take more closeup pics later, especially if I see anything resembling a normal petal stigma on Beta. Right now there are NONE. As for pollen, there's a chance for me when the secondary buds open on Alpha. I will do a mojo pollen dance for both of us. (That's a joke, Zenman. I have to be reminded now and again that humor does not always translate in e-mails.)

    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    That snow is supposed to get down here tomorrow. The weather guys think maybe 1 to 3 inches for our location. If it's much more than that, I'll have to get out my snow blower.

    " I note that Alpha is taking on a purple/bluish cast overall. It's rather pretty, and definitely sets its color apart from Beta which has been and continues to be more towards the warm salmon-y shade of pink or magenta or somewhere around there. "

    It's too bad we can't get that purple to "go away" and just leave the bluish. Somehow, that hasn't happened yet with zinnias. But, "hope springs eternal."

    So now you have a brown spider "guarding" your zinnias. It will be interesting to see how long he will wait for something to show up before he loses patience and moves on. Incidentally, we did catch a Brown Recluse on one of our sticky traps last year. I hear their bite is supposed to be about as serious as that of a Black Widow spider.

    Well, a "Razzle Dazzle" type recombinant bloomed out, and I am hoping it will produce some pollen that I can use.

    {{gwi:24868}} You can see the one-inch-spaced grooves on the chrome wire shelf upright tube out-of-focus in the background. Too bad perspective keeps them from being a true indication of the size of the bloom. I would like to get some really large zinnia blooms some day, and the Razzle Dazzles could definitely benefit from larger bloom sizes. This is a close-up cropped from that picture. Like they say on the cereal boxes, the image has been "enlarged to show texture."

    {{gwi:24870}} You can see even more "texture" by clicking on the image for the "full screen" version. There are some visible hair cells. Someday I hope to get a stereo microscope with a third port to attach my camera. I would like to be able to take some microscopic close-ups for better "situation awareness". More later. I did get a lot of pots washed, so now I am re-potting again.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - It was a light snow - only a dusting. Don't think you'll need your snowblower yet.

    Spidey might not leave right away as there are other beasties for him/her to eat as it turns out. There are some flies that have been drawn to the lights as well as Spidey and the ladybugs. It's OK with me if she eats any flies she can catch - even though, to be fair - those flies might be doing a better job of pollinating Alpha and Beta than I can do. :)

    Go Razzle Dazzle! More pollen, please. That picotee effect to the petal edges of the RD is great! And your photo is - to echo one of your assessments of my own photos - artistic. The coloring of your background is a lovely complement to the mango color of the bloom, and the clarity of the foreground is perfect.

    You can probably purchase a 10X lens (or multiple lens) to add onto your camera. I had added one of the screw-on magnifying lens onto my macro lens that was then added to my Nikon DSLR via the adaptor. There must be some add-on magnifying lens that can be purchased for digital cameras. You have a Nikon, too, right?

    Question off the subject - are you having issues with attacks from malware? I am under constant attack all of a sudden, and it's not like I do alot of surfing of the net. GW and FB are the main sites I visit, other than our own website for the shop and Amazon or some other fairly well known sources of mainstream sort of merchandize - shower curtains, the camera adaptor, etc. Just curious if others on GW are experiencing an upsurge in malware attacks. Am using Avast for virus protection, and it apparently is blocking the attacks, but as the messages are popping up several in an hour, it does slow things down. Geez - remember how it was in the old dial-up days, and we weren't used to having instant access? I've been spoiled.

    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    "Question off the subject - are you having issues with attacks from malware? I am under constant attack all of a sudden, and it's not like I do a lot of surfing of the net."

    No, I haven't noticed any attacks of what I would call "malware", although this site does have some occasionally aggressive advertisements. I have a popup blocker enabled, which holds some of the ads in check. But some ads manage to subvert the popup blocker. The popup blocker is a minor component of my Microsoft Internet Explorer browser. I also have Norton 360 Premier Edition, which maintains an extensive database of websites that are considered as "threat sites" and that list is updated very frequently. However, Norton's "Safe Surfing" feature works only with Internet Explorer, Firefox, and Chrome. Currently I use only Internet Explorer (which I am using now) and Firefox. I probably should experiment with Chrome.

    Internet Explorer is my primary browser, because I use HughesNet's satellite uplink/downlink as my Internet provider (we are in a rural area that has no available cable or DSL service) and when we have a connectivity problem (a daily occurrence), Internet Explorer does a good job of diagnosing the problem and suggesting a workable fix (usually to reboot my HughesNet modem).

    "GW and FB are the main sites I visit, other than our own website for the shop and Amazon or some other fairly well known sources "

    This may be another obvious one like OC, but what does FB stand for? Obviously, I know GW stands for Garden Web.

    Back in my post to Mister.Guy on Fri, Oct 31, 14 at 2:56, the word "clean" has been converted to a link to an advertisement popup, but that is "just" a revenue-producing feature of this site. I don't consider it malware as such, unless they become very pervasive, as they sometimes are.

    "Am using Avast for virus protection, and it apparently is blocking the attacks, but as the messages are popping up several in an hour, it does slow things down."

    Norton can work silently in the background, so I don't see anything like that. Norton does keep a security log, which I can review to see what has been going on. Are you using a free version of Avast? It's messages may be a form of self advertising.

    "You can probably purchase a 10X lens (or multiple lens) to add onto your camera. I had added one of the screw-on magnifying lens onto my macro lens that was then added to my Nikon DSLR via the adaptor. There must be some add-on magnifying lens that can be purchased for digital cameras. You have a Nikon, too, right? "

    I have a now obsolete entry level Nikon D3200 DSLR. (the Nikon D3300 has been out for quite some time.) I just have a Nikon AF-S DX Micro-NIKKOR 40mm f/2.8G lens, which is a rather inexpensive entry-level macro lens. Fixed focal length (no zoom) and no image stabilization (VR vibration reduction).

    The problem with an extreme magnification add-on is that you wind up with the front surface of your lens practically in contact with your subject. I have to watch it now, or I can cast a shadow on my subject with my lens and camera. I like to stay at least a few inches back from my subject, because I take my zinnia pics hand-held. A tripod or even a monopod is just too cumbersome for me almost all of the time.

    Of course, I realize that when I get a stereo microscope, that freedom of picture taking through it won't be possible. But I am considering taking the microscope into the garden, so that has me looking at models that have the microscope on an adjustable arm. That will not be a near-term purchase, because I won't have budget for it any time soon.

    I do have a pocket microscope (20x) with a pull-out 8x hand lens that I use for current micro "situation awareness". But, using it is, at best, "cumbersome".

    There is an optical instrument called a "macroscope" that I might consider as an intermediate solution, but not for picture taking. It, like my pocket microscope, would be only for direct observation situation awareness.

    I might eventually buy a better Nikon Micro-NIKKOR lens for picture taking. And, maybe consider using a tripod or monopod, or one of those "chest pod" things. More later.

    ZM

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello again, Alex,

    Well, we have had a light snow. The deck and driveway are white, but the lawn and garden are only partially covered. It seems to be letting up now, so maybe we aren't going to get a heavy coverage.

    This late season pollination was an attempt to cross an exotic with a Razzle Dazzle, but this bloom looks very much like the female parent, even though its stigmas had been exposed.

    {{gwi:24872}} I am guessing that it is a self of the exotic female, so now I will expose its stigmas and re-attempt the exotic x RD (Razzle Dazzle) cross, when I can find some RD pollen. This is a crop, "enlarged to show texture".

    {{gwi:24874}} As they say, if at first you don't succeed, try, try again. And, while I am waiting for pollen, I still have a lot of re-potting to do. More later.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yo ZM - how's your pollen hanging, bro? I hope better than mine. If the fate of the existence of zinnias depended on our pollen-shy little darlings, we'd have a serious problem.

    Never mind the malware attacks, they appear to be better. Computer stuff - so depressing. Quick change of subject. Oh, except to add that FB is Facebook. Not nearly as entertaining as Garden Web, by my reckoning.

    So, how many plants have you got going? Not much I can do at this point until the secondary buds open, I guess. Beta has one visible now, too.

    - Alex

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    1/2" - 1" snow last night and 28 * out there. Would rather stay here and keep the fire stoked, but looks like a shop day. Sigh...

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    "Yo ZM - how's your pollen hanging, bro? I hope better than mine. "

    My pollen is hanging better than it was. I got a decent amount of it today from some of my prime breeders, The exotic specimen nearly hid its pollen down under its petal florets.

    {{gwi:24876}} I also got pollen from a couple of my Razzle Dazzle specimens. This is one of the RDs that had usable pollen.

    {{gwi:24878}} I spent nearly two hours this afternoon using the available pollen. So why pollen today, and not in the preceding days? I don't know for sure, and it would be nice to know more about pollen production in indoor zinnias, since it is such a "make or break" thing.

    When I am crossing pollen from one indoor zinnia to another, I pick up both pots and put them next to other, just as a matter of convenience. You don't enjoy such pollinating convenience outdoors for in-garden zinnias, so taking advantage of it when the opportunity exists indoors just makes sense to me.

    In moving those pots around today, I noticed that the pots of the pollen producing zinnias seemed lighter than the pots of the female zinnias receiving the pollen. That could be just a coincidence, but it seems that the pollen producers were depleting their water supply. They weren't wilting yet, but I made a mental note to water them some tomorrow.

    It's certainly not proven yet, but it may be that withholding water from a zinnia will persuade it to produce some pollen. You might want to give that a try. Don't starve them to the point of wilting, but by hefting their pots you can get some idea how much water is in the medium in the pot. More later. Tomorrow I need to make ready another shelf for budding zinnias. I currently have well over 200 zinnia plants in various stages of development.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - OMG! You may be onto something with the water stress issue. When I am desirous of having a tomato ripen the fruit it has set - rather than put energy to developing new fruit - I take a shovel to the roots in a semi-circle around the plant. It puts the plant in stress-mode, thinking it needs to set fruit before its season ends. It's possible that withholding water from your zinnias is producing a like effect - the plant thinks it needs to set seed before its cycle has ended!

    I will give it a try. I have so far kept fairly good track of the weight (and therefore - wetness) of the pots, and have not allowed them to dry out much. Let's give it a try. Now that they have made it through the calcium chloride crisis and are looking "mighty fine!", I think they can handle a little more stress. :)

    Yeah, it's a real pleasure to have these two plants side by side and in pots that I can turn around as I please. I'll miss that when I'm working out in the garden. But, regardless, I don't believe I will be repeating this indoor breeding in the near future. I think I said it before, I sort of like the fact that the gardening is seasonal. In the past especially, I would work my a&* off out there with the veggie beds. When the season was done, I got to rest, and dream of the future garden.

    I seriously am going to be mostly about flowers this next season. Can't help but grow some food for fresh use - so much better tasting and I believe better for you when it's something you've grown yourself with your own energy in it - but this next year will be my supposed year of retirement. Things may be changing...

    200 plants - alright! There was a time some 20 years back now, that I would have that or more growing under lights and spilling into the greenhouse, but it was all for planting out when the season permitted - vegetables and flowers. Have always had to have flowers, too. I need the beauty of them.

    - Alex

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Back again...

    And he scores! 6 points for the Zenman! When I went up to check the 'kids' this morning, I noted first that the soil was drying out a bit. And 'Faith and Begorra' - there was Pollen! Now this may all just be a happy coincidence...or not. But I think you may have discovered a useful technique for bringing on the pollen.

    Oh, and I gave them a good long drink afterwards as reward. :)

    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    Glad you got pollen. Now you have a chance of getting some F2 seeds from your two zinnias. And some hybrid F2 seeds as well.

    The following is a parenthetic explanation to you, and to anyone else who might be interested.

    For the last couple of years I have been concentrating on tubular petaled zinnias of one form or another. Most tubular petaled zinnias conceal their stigmas inside the petal tubes, which raises issues of whether it is practical to fertilize those stigmas. I am going to illustrate my current practice. This is/was a current "exotic" zinnia, which comes from a cross between the original tubular petaled form and the star-tipped mutant. That cross gives the original trumpet-shaped tubular flare-out a five-petaled look, which adds some complexity to the flower form.

    {{gwi:24880}} To make the enclosed stigmas accessible to pollen application, I remove most of the tubular petal. This is an intermediate stage of that process.

    {{gwi:24881}} And this is the stage after essentially all of the tubular petals have been removed, leaving just their stigmas. That might remind you of a "plucked" chicken.

    {{gwi:24883}} Incidentally, if you look closely you can see that a few of those stigmas appear in a variant form, with three or more "arms". Unusual. That was yesterday, when I then applied RD pollen to those stigmas. Most of them "took" and are nearly withered away today. I re-applied Razzle Dazzle pollen to the few remaining stigmas today.

    I did essentially the same petal surgery to my original tubular petaled "mutant" back in 2011, only I was much slower with the procedure back then. Now that I have had a lot of practice, I can expose more than one stigma per minute, and I can produce a significant amount of zinnia seed stock using the technique.

    But I concede that at some time the exotic zinnias are going to have to "learn" to produce their own seeds without human help. I am sort of going on a "leap of faith" that they are going to do that, and I am reasonably optimistic that they can.

    The Razzle Dazzles have petals that are very similar to the basic shape of the Tubulars and Exotic Tubulars, with tubes and a flare-out with "star points". But apparently the RD petals are modified pollen florets, in that they contain an anther bundle and can self fertilize. That is why I am making so many crosses between Razzle Dazzles and Exotic Tubulars. I want to evolve a much improved larger version of the Exotic Tubulars with at least some in-petal anther bundles, as a kind of "insurance" in case they don't produce conventional pollen bearing florets and selfed floret seeds.

    Time will tell whether I succeed at this. My older son says I should just concentrate on breeding larger zinnias. Maybe he is right. But these "weirdo" zinnias that I am working on now seem more interesting to me. I do intend to start a big-flowered zinnia project next Spring, as a parallel effort. And who knows? Maybe the "weirdo zinnias" might contribute somehow to a breakthrough in zinnia flower size. The one thing they are doing successfully is changing.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - So, if I'm seeing correctly, you've emasculated them as well to keep them from selfing? If you wanted to try to cross something with your razzle dazzles, which you say have both stigma and anthers in the tubes, can you do it before they would have selfed? How could you be sure? Though, as I type that, I seem to have a memory of seeing (out in the garden) that the stigmas come out before the anther bundles open. Do you think this is true of your tubular zinnias? Stigmas ready to accept pollen before the plant's own anthers are producing it?

    I suppose in the field in a natural setting, the plants would mostly self-pollinate, except for those that by virtue of color or increased scent, managed to attract moths, butterflies and hummingbirds. Probably too deep for bees to do much, do you think? And on that note, I don't recall my zinnias in the field having had a noticeable scent. Are there fragrant zinnias? That's something I will have to pay attention to this next season. I like things that smell as well as look good.

    Another thought comes to me - my Beta may only have selfed seeds when all's said and done, since I am only seeing stigmas that are in the anther bundles, and no useable petal stigmas. It's possible that it will only be with some of Alpha's seeds that I see true crosses between the two. But it's all good - I don't have a set path at this point. Just seeing what comes next.

    In response to your son's suggestion - there already are giant zinnias, but what you've come up with is unique. And, as you say, they're still changing. Hard not to be curious what more they may do in the future.

    Here's a pic as of yesterday. Not a great pic, rather fuzzy - should have lengthened my depth of field so I could have them both in focus. Harder to do it blind, working with this borrowed Canon lens on the Nikon. I need more practice. Anyway, you can see their differences, and the purplish/bluish cast on Alpha as she ages.

    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    I thought I answered you yesterday, but I must have somehow forgot to send the message.

    "So, if I'm seeing correctly, you've emasculated them as well to keep them from selfing?"

    I used its pollen to cross-pollinate other breeders. That is why the pollen is gone. I wouldn't mind if it selfed, but right now I am concentrating on inter-crossing my breeders rather than self them.

    "If you wanted to try to cross something with your razzle dazzles, which you say have both stigma and anthers in the tubes, can you do it before they would have selfed?"

    I can't think of any way to use a Razzle Dazzle as a female. But I can use them as pollen donors, so I can cross them onto other breeders that aren't Razzle Dazzles.

    "Though, as I type that, I seem to have a memory of seeing (out in the garden) that the stigmas come out before the anther bundles open. Do you think this is true of your tubular zinnias? Stigmas ready to accept pollen before the plant's own anthers are producing it? "

    I think the stigmas almost always appear before pollen does on a zinnia bloom. Pollen doesn't necessarily appear at all, but stigmas appear as a part of the petal. On a tubular, the stigmas are there, but inside the petal tubes. Stigmas are usually ready to accept pollen before the plant's own pollen florets with their internal anthers appear.

    "Are there fragrant zinnias?"

    None that I know of. Sometimes by sniffing you can detect a very faint fragrance, but you would never notice it otherwise. It is possible that butterflies are much more sensitive, and can smell zinnias. But we humans don't consider zinnias to be fragrant. If you find a fragrant zinnia, by all means save seeds from it.

    "...my Beta may only have selfed seeds when all's said and done, since I am only seeing stigmas that are in the anther bundles, and no useable petal stigmas."

    That's very mysterious that your Beta has had no usable petal stigmas. I have never seen a zinnia petal open without a stigma at its base.

    "In response to your son's suggestion - there already are giant zinnias, but what you've come up with is unique."

    Well, I think he was thinking of giant giant zinnias. Most so-called giant zinnias are hard put to exceed 6 inches in diameter. He and I both would like to see much bigger zinnias. I will be selecting and crossing for larger zinnias next year as an additional project.

    "Not a great pic, rather fuzzy - should have lengthened my depth of field so I could have them both in focus. Harder to do it blind, working with this borrowed Canon lens on the Nikon."

    It's a perfectly adequate picture. I have trouble with depth of field myself. I must have forgotten that the Canon lens was borrowed, and not one of yours. Maybe some year Santa Clause will bring you a Nikon close-up lens to use. I kinda hope my budget next year will allow me to buy a better Nikon close-up lens. Although my entry level lens is meeting my needs reasonably well. It doesn't have image stabilization, but I compensate for that with a faster shutter speed. And it has a short fixed focal length of 40 mm, so I don't have any zooming capability. But it is fast (f 2.8) and very close focusing, so I think it is a great lens for the money. I just need to increase my skills in using it. More later.

    ZM

    This post was edited by zenman on Thu, Nov 20, 14 at 23:07

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - oh goody - a quest for the fragrant zinnia! This should be interesting.

    That's very mysterious that your Beta has had no usable petal stigmas. I have never seen a zinnia petal open without a stigma at its base.

    It's not that Beta didn't have stigmas at the base of the petals, it's just that they are all malformed. Could possibly be genetic?

    Well, I think he was thinking of giant giant zinnias. Most so-called giant zinnias are hard put to exceed 6 inches in diameter. He and I both would like to see much bigger zinnias. I will be selecting and crossing for larger zinnias next year as an additional project.

    Double goody - a competition! Who can grow the biggest giants? I accept the challenge. :)

    It's a perfectly adequate picture. I have trouble with depth of field myself. I must have forgotten that the Canon lens was borrowed, and not one of yours.

    I didn't state myself well - I meant that the Canon macro-lens is borrowed from my old Canon TX camera and married to the Nikon D40 via the new lens adaptor I bought. And when I said I was working "blind" I meant that I can't tell where my settings are - the lens adaptor prevents the internal metering from appearing in the viewfinder. There are some things I can set, but then I just have to do trial and error. I'll get better with practice.

    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    "It's not that Beta didn't have stigmas at the base of the petals, it's just that they are all malformed. Could possibly be genetic?"

    I suppose it could be genetic, although I have seen a lot of different zinnia stigmas, and I have never seen any that were actually un-functional. I have seen very small ones and very large ones. This is one of my current breeders that has larger than normal stigmas.

    {{gwi:24886}} You can see those stigmas better by clicking for the larger picture. I consider large stigmas as a "plus factor" when evaluating a zinnia as a breeder. For that reason I probably have a larger-than-normal fraction of large stigmas in my gene pool. I suspect that several different genes affect the stigmas, because I have also seen stigmas with more than the usual two "arms".

    {{gwi:24888}} As you can see, that zinnia was a Whirligig. Unusual zinnia characteristics frequently come from Whirligigs. Three-armed stigmas are not extremely unusual. I have seen instances of stigmas with four or more arms. The most I have ever counted was eleven arms. Those stigmas looked like heads of hair, but were apparently fully functional.

    But the malformed stigmas on your Beta are troublesome. If they show up in Beta's progeny, I would consider them as a defect, and cull them. I don't see any evidence of thrips on Beta. Thrips frequently damage stigmas, but they do other recognizable damage that I don't see in your photos. Some fungal or viral or bacterial disease might be to blame. Or it could be a nutrient deficiency, although that now seems less likely because you have provided both calcium and boron. Let's wait and see. Maybe the mystery will be resolved.

    "Double goody - a competition! Who can grow the biggest giants? I accept the challenge. "

    Chuckle. Well, I wasn't challenging you, but I am up for a little friendly competition. I suspect that prehistoric zinnias were much larger than present-day zinnias, and maybe we can coax some of those forgotten zinnia genes back into activity. Just to be clear, I am not going for a fragrant zinnia, just big ones. (But I will sniff my zinnias from time to time.) More later.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - first the depressing news. I may disappear for awhile if I have to take this laptop in for repairs. John, who is definitely more geeky than I am, spent hours already trying to fix the problem, but it is still there.

    But on a happier note, your pic of the graceful plum colored zinnia with the free-form petal edges is just the sort of shape I would love to see in future progeny. And the larger stigmas do add to the beauty. I thought, after reading your post, that I saw a three-armed stigma on Alpha. But as I leaned closer with the magnifying glass, I lost sight of it, and now I'm not sure. An interesting alternate form; those that you are describing with mop-head stigmas I would think would be attractive. Did they have more pollen as a result?

    Grrr - this machine is giving me headaches - may have to get off it very soon. But, on a parting note - I was, of course, just goshing yall about the challenge, but let's just see what we come up with this summer - heh heh heh...

    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    "An interesting alternate form; those that you are describing with mop-head stigmas I would think would be attractive. Did they have more pollen as a result? "

    I don't remember about the pollen -- that was several years ago. Today I would probably save seeds from it, but those "mop heads" at the petal bases didn't seem attractive to me at the time.

    In fact, I was concerned that they might be a symptom of Aster Yellows, a strange disease that can affect zinnias if leafhoppers carry the disease to them. A few years ago I had a zinnia that did have Aster Yellows (its flower petals were leaves instead, in fact each flower was sort of like a separate plant) and it was so completely different from the mop-head-stigma zinnia that I now think those odd stigmas were just a new allele on a gene. I disposed of that Aster Yellows zinnia as if it were a biohazard, double bagged in a trip to the landfill. Aster Yellows is a very strange plant disease, and not to be trifled with.

    "...your pic of the graceful plum colored zinnia with the free-form petal edges is just the sort of shape I would love to see in future progeny."

    It has caught my fancy too. I am treating it as a priority breeder, pollinating it with other breeder pollen, and using its pollen on other breeders. Its wild flower form changes from day to day, and it is a little different from any zinnia I have ever had. It is supposed to be a cross between an exotic star-tipped tubular and a Razzle Dazzle. Its mother was an exotic. If I made that cross according to the label, the RD genes interact unpredictably with other zinnia genes.

    Quite a few of my current indoor zinnias are from crosses labeled with a male RD pollen donor. It will be interesting to see if any kind of pattern can be detected. At least three of the crosses so far have acted as if RD were dominant, but most make it appear to be recessive.

    Well, here's hoping your laptop is feeling better. I'll post a few pictures in your absence.

    ZM

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello all,

    I mentioned to Alex that one of my new indoor zinnias has a flower form that changes from day to day, and it is a little different from any zinnia I have ever had. It is enough different from my previous zinnias that I am going to consider it as a new zinnia flower form. From some directions, it looks rather like a fairly conventional cactus flowered zinnia, like in this view.

    {{gwi:24890}} However, in the same day it can have a significantly different look.

    {{gwi:24892}} It has some asymmetry, and the petals sometimes seem to arrange themselves into informal groups.

    {{gwi:24894}} I think I am going to refer to this zinnia flower form as "Bed Head" (BH) because of the tousled look of the petals. So, as yet another of my ongoing projects, I will work to develop this Bed Head flower form into a strain of zinnias in a complete color range. More later.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - woo hoo! Still here, but I should say it a bit more quietly so as not to press my luck. More hours spent by John to fix the problem. Crossing my fingers that it's fixed.

    Bed head zinnia - thumbs up! Its mother was an exotic.color = green> I should say so. The name is apt, though I'm picturing something a bit more alluring - a sort of Marlene Dietrich tousled hair look. Trying to think of some modern actress that does that just-out-of-the-bed-look really well, but my mind is a blank at the moment. Hope you get a wide range of colors out of that one; what's its bloom size?

    Yes, I grew asters once or twice, but I think they were affected by Asters Yellows. Whatever it was, they didn't grow well and I haven't tried since. Made me nervous. Biohazard indeed.

    Later - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    " ...what's its bloom size?"

    Its diameter is 4½ inches. For an indoor zinnia that was recently rootbound in a 3¼ inch square pot and then transplanted to a 5-inch square pot where it is once again becoming rootbound, that is a decent size. I don't know the exact relationship between available root volume and bloom size, but I suspect root volume plays a role in that.

    Oddly, that Bed Head's bloom diameter is greater than the bloom diameter of either parent. And they were grown outdoors last Summer with essentially unlimited root volume. Bed Head's exotic mother was about 3¼ inches in diameter and BH's pollen Razzle Dazzle parents ranged from 1½ to 2 inches in diameter. The exotics and RDs range from small to medium in bloom size, and I hope to increase the size of both, or their hybrid progeny, by a considerable amount.

    You should be on the lookout for Aster Yellows disease, and remove and dispose of any affected plants, using my aforementioned "biohazard" precautions. Don't be lulled by its name. Aster Yellows can even affect vegetable garden plants like carrots, and a wide range of other plants, including some native plants. It does need an insect vector like leafhoppers to move the strange infective agent from one plant to another. If you see a really strange mutation in a plant, be at least a little suspicious.

    I have a nice white zinnia blooming inside that is about the same size as the Bed Head.

    {{gwi:24896}} It was supposed to be crossed with a Razzle Dazzle, but the bloom closely resembles the Toothy white maternal parent, so I suspect it was inadvertently selfed. But try, try again. I am crossing it with some RD specimens, as well as some other breeders that presumably contain some RD genes. More later.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM -
    "Its diameter is 4½ inches."

    Wow - that's big! I am so enviouscolor = green>.

    "I don't know the exact relationship between available root volume and bloom size, but I suspect root volume plays a role in that."

    I would imagine it does have some correlation, if I can judge from how being in a smaller volume pot limits the overall growth of my seedlings I start every spring. Some years I am low on the decent propagation mix I use, and as it can be difficult to get it (can't just go down to the corner store, or even to the big feed store in the town nearest me; it won't be on the shelf), I have been known to pot up two seedlings together in a cell on that first transplant, fully intending to transplant them later to a bigger pot. Even without being strictly "rootbound" though, they still show a significant difference in size from any seedling that has been potted alone. They generally catch up later, but if they were allowed to bloom under those circumstances, it seems logical that the size of bloom might be affected. But, as with all else - I could be wrong. :)

    "Oddly, that Bed Head's bloom diameter is greater than the bloom diameter of either parent."

    Well, now that's exciting! Sounds like a step towards those giant giants!

    "You should be on the lookout for Aster Yellows disease, and remove and dispose of any affected plants, using my aforementioned "biohazard" precautions."

    It was several years back now that I grew them. Hopefully, it's been long enough for the virus or whatever to have run its course. Haven't noticed anything unusual in that area of the garden. Mostly it's been veggie land there in the past. That particular year I was into the idea of having a cut-flower bed, so there were several rows of annuals for cutting. Not a great success since the china asters were supposed to be the star of the show, and then they got stage-fright. Of course, it's irrelevant now, since I can't have cut flowers in the house with the cats around. Sigh.

    "It was supposed to be crossed with a Razzle Dazzle, but the bloom closely resembles the Toothy white maternal parent, so I suspect it was inadvertently selfed."

    Wow! Like I'd care - that white bloom is gorgeous! Hey, Alpha's second bud will be opening soon - can hardly wait. Will have to move the lights up again as it is already taller than the primary bloom.

    Later - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    "Wow - that's big! I am so envious."

    Chuckle. Green with envy. Well, 4½ inches is somewhat large for indoor zinnias, but just medium sized for outdoor zinnias. The so-called "giant" zinnias usually run about 5½ inches, with a few exceptional ones hitting 6 inches. I hope to breed "giant" zinnias well above 6 inches in diameter. I know that is possible. In past years some seed catalogs have advertised zinnias as large as 8 inches in diameter. Growers have probably seen zinnias that large in their big fields of zinnias, but the chances of an 8-inch zinnia showing up in any one seed packet are nil.

    I have mentioned this before, but as amateur breeders of zinnias we have a couple of advantages over the commercial seed companies. First of all, we can make an F1 hybrid between any two zinnias in our garden. The commercial guys are limited to just a few of their inbred strains, and they can't afford to have the pollination done by humans.

    Second, and this is a little more subtle, we process our seeds by hand, which means that we can save extra large or extra long seeds that would be broken or rejected as stem pieces by the commercial seed processing machines. I think this is going to be a significant advantage in our amateur quest for larger zinnias.

    Some of my indoor zinnias show their "exotic" heritage in rather subtle ways, like this specimen.

    {{gwi:24898}} It has both tubular and toothy genes, but the tubularity appears only at the base of the petals, and an occasional petal "finger" hints at toothiness or star tipped ancestry. Several of my indoor specimens do a similar job of nearly concealing their unusual genetics. Apparently the unusual stuff tends to be recessive. I am hoping the F2 progeny of many of my current specimens will reveal some more interesting combinations of traits.

    "Alpha's second bud will be opening soon... "

    I wonder how closely it will resemble the first bloom. Occasionally different blooms on the same zinnia plant will have significant differences. More later.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - We think it's a trojan virus - cold booting may not save me for long. See ya later...
    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    Some computer virus malware can only be removed during the early part of your computer boot up. Hope you get it sorted. A RootKit virus can be extremely difficult to detect and remove, and usually requires a special purpose program to detect and remove it.

    This is one of my newly bloomed out zinnias that I have given breeder status to. It combines toothy petals with a Whirligig-type bicoloration.

    {{gwi:24900}} Today I put some Bed Head pollen on it. The Bed Head put only four pollen florets today. Its main bloom may be approaching the end of its development. I am hoping it will put out a side bloom before too long. More later.

    ZM

  • ninecrow
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi ZenMan

    I have taken the Plunge and Ordered My 1st Zinnias for Indoor Growing....

    Please will You Post Again the Difference between The Athers and Sigmas?

    Thanks and Sorry to be a Pain in the Aft End

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just sent my metal child off to the computer hospital (sniff sniff). Am using the DH's machine to write this. Very inconvenient timing (not that computer breakdowns are ever conveniently timed) as I always have extensive computer work to do around the quarters. Fortunately, the majority of it can be done offline, and the publisher programs in my old PC are still compatible with the new programs. So I've been able to piecemeal things together going back and forth from different machines. Hopefully, they will cure her and return her to me soon. It's been very odd and unsettling not having access to the internet. Brings into stark reality the depth of my online addiction, and perforce - that of probably half of the rest of the planet.
    Perhaps in the future, I should voluntarily do this enforced withdrawal more often...

    Anywho - on a cheerier note - nice to see that the cyberworld has continued without me! :) That's a lovely new breeder, ZM. I look forward to seeing interesting issue from crossings with the Bedheaded Marlene. And I hope you get some side blooms soon. You'll be happy to know, I'm sure, that Alpha has not just one, but two new buds opening. I've already attempted pollinating the second new bloom with some of Beta's pollen. Yay!

    And here's a curious note. You may recall that I had decent-looking petal stigmas on Alpha, but none to mention on Beta. Well, perhaps I was wrong about that...again. You see, I pulled some of the lower petals off of Alpha, fully expecting to see some nice plump seeds. Nada. So far have pulled off about 5 - not a one is viable. I'm not too concerned - I'm sure there will be some on there eventually. However, and here's the curious thing - I pulled a couple of bottom petals off Beta, expecting, of course, to see empty embryo cases. To my surprise, those two were plump! Now what's up with that, I wonder? Not that I'm complaining, but it did seem rather strange.

    OK, gotta go. May not be back for another week or so, but this might not be a bad thing. I'm getting more done being offline. :)

    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi NC,

    "Please will You Post Again the Difference between The Anthers and Sigmas? "

    The anthers produce the pollen and the stigmas (that originate at the base of petals) accept the pollen. Stigmas (petal stigmas) and a pollen floret are visible in this picture.

    {{gwi:24902}} In that picture you can see actual pollen in the center of the floret, as a little pile of yellow dust. That pollen could be picked up on the tip of an artist's brush and brushed on a stigma, or the entire pollen floret could be picked up with tweezers (or forceps or twissors) and used as a preloaded brush to brush pollen on petal stigmas.

    The anthers are not visible, because they are enclosed in the neck of the floret (the neck is also not visible). In the picture, an internal stigma originating in the base of the floret is extending from below the anther bundle up through the center of the anther bundle and, as it extends, it pushes a lot of pollen off of the anthers up into the outside world in the middle of the fuzzy yellow floret arms.

    In an hour or so the two arms of the floret stigma will appear in the center of the floret arms. The floret stigma almost always gets self-pollinated as it pushes the pollen from the center of the anther bundle out into the middle of the floret arms.

    The floret seeds look different from the petal seeds, but both can produce new plants. The cross-pollinated seeds are almost always petal seeds.

    I hope you enjoy a challenge, because growing zinnias inside is a challenge. A challenge that I have come to enjoy. But there have been plenty of "bumps in the road" along the way. I will be glad to answer any further questions.

    ZM

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    Let's hope they get your computer fixed before too long. It's true that we are all addicted to either the Internet or to some other technology, like smart phones and social media.

    That is odd, the counterintuitive production of seeds by Beta and not by Alpha. I have checked the petals of some of my breeders, hoping to find some plump green seeds that I could use to start a second indoor generation, but so far nothing ready to use. I do plan to use pre-germination as an important part of my indoor zinnia culture. I have you to thank for that.

    I have done some culling of my indoor zinnias, and that feels odd. But it just makes sense, not to waste resources growing zinnias that are substandard. I have also re-used the growing medium in the pots of zinnias that were culled by inserting younger seedlings into the vacated pots, and I am also nervous about doing that. Last year I got into a lot of trouble re-using the media from previous years and hopefully this policy of switching out younger seedlings for culled plants won't lead to similar problems. Time will tell. All of my pots this time at least start out with fresh media. I use Premier ProMix BX as my indoor growing media.

    I am getting some interesting breeder specimens. This one closely resembles its outdoor seed parent.

    {{gwi:24904}} It and its outdoors parent reminded me of a fireworks sky-burst. I hate to remove its petals to expose its stigmas, because that completely disfigures the bloom. But I want to see those hybrid progeny, so goodbye bloom prettiness. I have some interesting things to cross-pollinate it with. I'll probably use some of my Razzle Dazzle pollen and some of the Bed Head pollen. Who knows what those crosses will look like?

    "May not be back for another week or so, but this might not be a bad thing. I'm getting more done being offline."

    Well, we will see you when we see you. You are always welcome here. Myself, I have to ration my television watching. I hope they get your computer fixed just fine.

    ZM

    This post was edited by zenman on Wed, Dec 3, 14 at 2:05

  • ninecrow
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for the Info ZM.....

    I ONLY Have Windowsills So Maybe This Won't Work at all.....
    ***SIGH***

    I'll Still Give it a Go Though....

  • woodnative
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Nothing much to add here........but I have been following these threads for a couple of years. I love the genetics that you have "captured" and combined and seeing the unusual flower types and colors produced and what parentage went into them. Keep posting and keep up the good work! Me and I am sure a lot of others are enjoying these threads!
    I love that toothy purplish bicolor a couple posts up from this! Also love the scabiosa influence in many of your flowers. I have to find myself some scabiosa type zinnia seeds this coming season and "play" with some crosses.

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi NC,

    "I'll Still Give it a Go Though...."

    We will be very curious to see how your zinnias on a windowsill fare. As they say, "nothing dared, nothing gained." Even if the experiment isn't wholly successful, it will be worthwhile knowing just how the zinnias responded to that environment.

    This is one of my current indoor breeder zinnias.

    {{gwi:24906}} It has some of the wavy petal characteristics that Alex likes. I like it, too. Since it isn't producing pollen at the moment, it will serve as a female breeder, to receive pollen from other pollen-producing breeder zinnias. I am currently putting emphasis on the Bed Head and various Razzle Dazzle specimens as pollen donors. In my opinion, my Razzle Dazzles are most in need of improvement, so I am crossing them with nearly everything. More later.

    ZM

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    OK, I'm back. Borrowed John's old machine again.
    ZM - you know what those crinkly, wavy petals make me think of? Porcelain china. Is that the true color? It's almost indigo.

    Still no petals seeds on Alpha, but I'm not pulling anymore in case they need a longer time to mature under lights than outside. It's been since Oct 23 that the bloom was open; seemed long enough for those first lower petals, but what do I know?

    Gotta go.
    Oh, and ninecrow - definitely you need to try growing those zinnias on the windowsill. I talked myself into growing 2 plants in the middle of frigid winter; join the party. :)

    - Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi woodnative,

    "I have to find myself some scabiosa type zinnia seeds this coming season and "play" with some crosses."

    I recommend you include some Whirligig zinnias in those crosses. Whirligigs have been my "secret sauce" in many of my crosses. There are several scabiosa type zinnias that you might experiment with, including a couple of new ones for 2015. The new ones are the Zinderella Lilac and Zinderella Peach. Both Zinderella Lilac and Zinderella Peach received Fleuroselect awards.

    Another interesting scabiosa flowered strain is the Cupcakes strain, which was new this year. It looks like I have some catching up to do with scabiosa flowered zinnias, myself.

    "I love that toothy purplish bicolor a couple posts up from this!"

    I like it, too. This is another of my current indoor breeders.

    {{gwi:2117649}} It has obvious Whirligig ancestry, and I don't know what all else. I'll probably cross it with Razzle Dazzle pollen. I am really trying to pump up my Razzle Dazzle strain with all kinds of new genes. More later.

    ZM
    (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    "...you know what those crinkly, wavy petals make me think of? Porcelain china. Is that the true color? It's almost indigo."

    That is a true color. The color of the zinnia on my computer monitor is a "dead ringer" for the color of the actual zinnia in the utility room. Ever since I started saving my pictures from my Nikon camera as raw NEF files and converting them with DxO Labs' DxO Optics Pro software, my colors have just been "falling into place".

    To me, that color looks like lavender mixed with a lot of white. And there is a tantalizing undertone of sky blue. But whatever it is, it is a really nice zinnia color, and I have seen it from time to time nearly every year I have grown zinnias. I think the first time I saw it was when the W. Atlee Burpee company introduced their Luther Burbank strain of cactus flowered zinnias. It had an amazing range of different pastel colors, including some really nice whites. I suspect that the famous plant breeder, Luther Burbank, created that seed stock by crossing many different colors of cactus flowered zinnias with white cactus flowered zinnias. I can't believe Burpee discontinued that strain of zinnias. More later.

    ZM
    (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - I had some pretty whites this past summer, and I tried to cross them with the colors, hoping for some nice pastels. The whites had a tendency, at least in my little patch, to look not so good in a relatively short period of time, and then absolutely horrid later. As opposed to some of the colors, that retained their beauty for weeks. That's a bit discouraging, and would be a deterrent normally to my using them in any sort of display for appearance alone, but this is for the sake of scientific experimentation, don'cha know? I positively shiver when I imagine a cross down the line between my #1 giant watermelon cactus - C1 - one of the white scabious and my W1 - the first blooming whirligig, a white and maroon/red bi-color.

    Nice photos, BTW (ref. above post Oct 29 for abbr. key). Your DXO Optics software does a superb job. When I first started saving things RAW in NEF files just a year ago now, I found I couldn't open them with my old photoshop program, so I downloaded a free temporary version of DXO Optics - at least, I think that's the one I tried. However, I decided it wasn't as comfortable for me as PhotoShop, so I upgraded to PS12 instead. Definitely a "Cadillac" version as compared to the old "Volkswagon Beetle" PS3 that came with the PC when I bought it. I still don't know half the stuff it does.

    My metal baby comes home today, and I have hours of enjoyment to look forward to as I re-install ALL of my programs - not. As it turns out, there were at least a couple of trojans plus something else to do with Google gumming up the works - don't remember what all as John took it in for me and talked to the guy, he being much more versed in the PC ins and outs. I still am at a loss as to where I may have picked up the bugs. It's not like a spend alot of time cruising the back streets of the internet. And I forgot my vorpal sword, apparently.
    Later, Alex

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    "The whites had a tendency, at least in my little patch, to look not so good in a relatively short period of time, and then absolutely horrid later."

    I'm not sure what caused your problem with the whites. White zinnias can look good just as long as the other colors. What strain of zinnias were you growing that had the defective whites?

    My original indoor white bloom that I pictured a couple of weeks ago has started doing something that is not typical of whites. It is starting to develop a blush of color on the older petals. You can see that on this current picture.

    {{gwi:2117650}} It's really too soon for those petals to have plump green seeds yet, although I should be checking some of my older blooms for usable green seeds. If I find any, they will go into my pre-germination Ziplocs.

    "However, I decided it wasn't as comfortable for me as PhotoShop, so I upgraded to PS12 instead. Definitely a "Cadillac" version as compared to the old "Volkswagon Beetle" PS3 that came with the PC when I bought it."

    By PS12 you must mean Photoshop Elements 12. Actually, it is not the current version. Photoshop Elements 13 does differ from PSE12 in one important aspect. PSE13 supports 64-bit computer architecture. If your "metal baby" has 64-bit architecture, purchasing Photoshop Elements 13 might be worthwhile.

    "I still am at a loss as to where I may have picked up the bugs. It's not like a spend alot of time cruising the back streets of the internet. And I forgot my vorpal sword, apparently. "

    Norton's 360 Internet Security and Antivirus for Windows software would serve as a vorpal sword. Its "Safe Surfing" feature checks each website in your search, and warns you if it will expose you to malware. It would be interesting to know what Norton thinks of your bookstore's website. If you wish, email me its URL and I will see if it appears "Safe" to Norton. I am suggesting email, because GardenWeb might object to you posting the URL here. And you might want to keep it private, as well.

    Incidentally, this GardenWeb page is "Safe". It would be ironic if you picked up your malware from your website or if you infected it from your computer.

    Well, I've got lots of cross pollination to do. More later.

    ZM

  • queen_gardener
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey, I'm just popping in to ask about the new zinnia seeds I saw in the Park Seed online catalogue - Crouching Tiger and Hidden Dragon. They are so pretty, but not sure if they will breed with Whirligig (which I intend to buy) and scabiosa type (which I have) and the heirloom Yellow Canary (bought from an Etsy seller). What do you think, do you know anything about them? It turns out that the seeds I had planted earlier this year were the State Fair, along with all I had left of my zinnia seeds from the last house, which were second generation from a Burpee packet. So I'm going to start over with the three I listed above, and was wondering if I could add the Crouching Tiger and Hidden Dragon to the mix? I love the pics of them, that's for sure!

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello Queen-Gardener,

    Glad to have you back. Park's Crouching Tiger and Hidden Dragon look suspiciously like Mazurkia and Macarenia at SwallowTail Seeds. Harris Seeds also offer Zinnia Mazurkia and Zinnia Macarenia. Those two zinnias won Fleuroselect Awards. My suspicion is that Park Seed simply renamed those varieties to list in their 2015 catalog. I admire the Park Seeds descriptions of their products in their online website, but it bothers me that they see fit to rename the products that they offer. For example, Benary's Giants zinnias are produced by Benary's in Germany, but when Parks offers them they are described as "Parks Picks". Really? I don't hesitate to order seeds from Park's, but I don't approve of them re-naming things. Benary's deserves credit for their many years of plant breeding to produce Benary's Giants zinnias, and Park's denies them that recognition.

    Regardless of what you call them, those new zinnia varieties were probably selected and stabilized by inbreeding from Whirligig stock, so they should cross with Whirligigs readily, and with many other zinnias as well. But scarlet-and-yellow and red-and-white are just two of the very many color combinations that Whirligigs are capable of. Those same two color combinations are also available in the lower growing F1 Hybrid Swizzle zinnias, which have been in the marketplace for several years.

    I look forward to following your zinnia activities next year.

    Incidentally, State Fair zinnias are tetraploids, and not suitable for crossing with our diploid zinnias, unless you are deliberately going for triploid zinnias. If you got triploids, they wouldn't set seeds, which temporarily might be an advantage, but they wouldn't have any progeny unless you propagated them asexually by cuttings or tissue culture. I personally don't want to mess with tetraploid or triploid zinnias.

    You might be interested in the new Zinderella zinnias that I spoke to WoodNative about above. And possibly the Cupcakes as well.

    ZM
    (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

  • ninecrow
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi, ZM My Seeds are Here!!!!
    ***YAY***

  • ladyrose65
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello Zenman, are you selling or SASE seeds of the orange runner zinnia? Is the organge runner Hummer or butterfly friendly. It looks like a Maltese Crosse. Interested in some seeds.
    Regards,
    Avis.

  • samhain10 - 5a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ZM - I didn't know that about State Fair being triploid. Not that I know squat about diploids and triploids. But I wouldn't want to use any of my precious gardening space for something that won't cross.

    Anyway, to get the unpleasant details out of the way, the metalchild is back from hospital and acting like HAL after his famous mind-wipe in 2001 - A Space Odyssey. I now have the unenviable task of putting everything back in again - carefully.

    As part of the deal (which includes a 2 yr warranty), I now have Kaspersky for my security system. He promises to keep me safe - eh, comrade? We did have Norton some years back, but there was some problem - can't remember the details. Some pain-in-the-a** encounters that decided us to go elsewhere. I've actually heard good things about Kaspersky from some friends, so I'm agreeable to give it a go. In fact, I have no choice in the matter at this point, having already made the deal.

    And the good news... I have gathered some nice plump seeds from Alpha - yay! So, all is going well. I need some fresh pollen now to pollinate the two (!!) new buds on Alpha, but that will come with time.

    Oh, one unfortunate snag in my breeding program. Though I thought I had backed up everything before I took my machine in, I inadvertently forgot some of my photography folders. :( That I could forget this is so mind-boggling, that I can hardly put my mind around it.) In one of them was the folder with the photos of every one of my zinnias that I made crosses with this past summer. Bummer. I do still have the RAW files, I think, saved elsewhere, but they are not labeled as to what's what. If I can find the right files, I may be able to recreate the folder, though, as I more than once went out and made the rounds, taking pics of each plant in the proper order. Some I will recognize immediately as to which they are, as we are intimately acquainted. Other pics I can pick up from here and Photobucket. But it's going to take time. Sigh...

    - Alex

  • queen_gardener
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh, I didn't MEAN to have zinnias I couldn't cross, lol! I didn't know there were zinnias that couldn't cross, I'm such a newbie. Now I know better, thanks you all you helpful folks. So I'm going to start from scratch with the Yellow Canary, Scabiosa, Whirligig, and maybe some Crouching Tiger/Marzukia Hidden Dragon/Macarenia if I order them. I had also traded for some this summer and will throw some of those in the mix, too - I'm not going to be very scientific or orderly about this, and I'm going to let nature take its course to pollinate and cross the flowers. I will certainly try to follow this thread closer and post my progress, though I won't have anything to show off "of my own" for two years. Yeah, I'll claim nature's work as my own, lol. :-)
    I'll have to check out Cupcake and the others you mentioned.
    I too don't think it is right for Park's to re-name stuff, I had no idea.

  • queen_gardener
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh my goodness, just checked into the Zinderella (super cute name!!) and Cupcake - so very pretty! I do love the scabiosa flower form, I have bought or traded for pink Scabiosa, Knautia, and Astrantia major, there were purple Scabies already here at the house.
    I just hope the zinnia flowers resemble the catalogue pictures! And the offspring won't be as poofy and scabiosa-like, right?
    Looks like I have two more types to add to my "Need to Have" list!!

    Any others I should know about?! :-)

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi NC,

    "My Seeds are Here!!!! ***YAY***"

    I wish you best of luck in your experimental windowsill culture of zinnias on your side of the "pond". Keep us informed, regardless of how it turns out.

    ZM

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Avis,

    "...are you selling or SASE seeds of the orange runner zinnia?"

    For a number of reasons, I am not selling or trading or sharing any zinnia seeds for the foreseeable future.

    "Is the orange runner Hummer or butterfly friendly?"

    Not nearly as much as many zinnias. Butterflies and hummingbirds both go for the nectar at the base of the pollen florets, and that "orange runner" didn't have a lot of pollen florets and I immediately used the pollen florets that it presented to cross-pollinate other zinnias, which didn't leave anything for the butterflies and hummers.

    Butterflies and hummingbirds would be best satisfied by zinnias that produce an abundance of pollen florets. One such zinnia is the Zowie Yellow Flame F1 hybrid because it has a tall central cone that provides fresh pollen florets daily. Zowie is expensive per seed because it is an award winning F1 hybrid, but you could grow a few and save seeds from them for a bigger less expensive growout the following year. Your saved seeds would produce a variety of F2 variants, some of which resembled the parent and some of which would be different. You might even pull up a few of them as "weeds". But the butterflies would find many of them to their liking, and you would be on your way toward breeding your own butterfly-friendly strain of zinnias.

    ZM
    (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Alex,

    "I didn't know that about State Fair being triploid."

    State Fair is tetraploid. If you cross a tetraploid with a diploid, you get a triploid. Triploids are sterile. A good example of triploids is bananas. All of the bananas in the store are triploids and in effect seedless. Those tiny brown dots would have been seed embryos if one parent had not been a tetraploid while the other was diploid. Banana breeders breed a lot of different diploid bananas and a lot of different tetraploid bananas, and their bananas have fertile seeds. So they grow bananas from seeds in order to get new varieties of bananas. They produce many amazing forms of bananas that never get grown commercially for one reason or another. Many years ago a banana company (I think it was Dole) ran a full page magazine add showing an assortment of their experimental bananas. One of them was round like a grapefruit. But I digress.

    "I now have Kaspersky for my security system. He promises to keep me safe - eh, comrade?"

    Let us know how Kapersky works. I have never tried that one.

    "And the good news... I have gathered some nice plump seeds from Alpha - yay! So, all is going well."

    Are you going to dry them for planting next Spring? I have a few green seeds that are nearly ready to pull, but I will be putting mine in a pre-germ Ziploc. I hope to have a second generation growing by Christmas.

    "... Bummer. I do still have the RAW files, I think, saved elsewhere, ..."

    I know you are not a fan of the user interface, but DxO Optics Pro 10 is now available for a free 30-day fully functional trial, and it could convert those raw files to a form that your Photoshop Elements 12 could process. Incidentally, DxO Optic's user interface has "improved" (changed) a little, and you might hate it less. It does allow you to create your own Presets, which makes it easy to repeat a previous choice of settings. DxO Optic's Prime option for Denoising is computation intensive, but very possibly the best available. Topaz's DeNoise plug-in is nearly as capable. I have both, but primarily use DxO's Prime Denoising, because it is spooky good. (Topaz's DeNoise is also spooky good.)

    "Other pics I can pick up from here and Photobucket. But it's going to take time."

    But the pics here and in Photobucket don't have nearly as much detail as your original Raw files. Incidentally, do you have a Nikon program called ViewNX 2? It can show you thumbnail pictures of NEF (RAW) files and you can double-click those thumbnails to get a full screen view of your RAW file.

    More later. More indoor gardening to do.

    ZM
    (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Queen-Gardener,

    I will answer your messages in more detail later today, but I did want to address a couple of little things right now.

    First of all, you mentioned that you had or were getting Whirligig zinnias. There are, in effect, two different strains of Whirligig zinnias in the market place. One strain has a lot of singles and semi-doubles, but essentially no doubles. Single multi-color zinnias can actually look quite nice in the landscape, and they don't hide their interesting petal colorations behind other petals. I personally am not a fan of single zinnias, so I don't grow that strain. The Whirligigs from Park Seed and SwallowTail are the single-ish strain.

    The double strain of Whirligigs has a high percentage of doubles with some semi-doubles and very few singles. It is the one I prefer, in order to get fully double zinnias. It is available from Stokes and one or two others that don't come to mind right now. Burpee used to have them, but discontinued Whirligigs a few years ago.

    " I will certainly try to follow this thread closer and post my progress, though I won't have anything to show off "of my own" for two years."

    In all likelihood you will have some amazing selections in your Whirligigs next Spring, and you can post pictures of them. And zinnias are full of surprises in general. If you are growing a zinnia, it is "your own", and we would like to see its picture.

    I will respond in more detail later.

    ZM

    This post was edited by zenman on Sun, Dec 7, 14 at 2:08

  • zen_man
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi everyone,

    Since this message thread has become so long, we are continuing this over in It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 29 for a fresh start.

    Hope to see you all over there.

    ZM

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