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Container Soils - Water Movement and Retention XXI

Hello! If you find value in the information I have set down in this post and feel there is anything pertaining to the topic that should be added or explored in more detail, please contribute your suggestions. My goal was to offer soil-related information with the potential to help you increase the reward you get in return for your efforts. What might I do to increase the value of this offering?

As you eye the length of this post, one thing you might ask yourself is, "Why the interest and all this talk about soils and water retention"? In all honesty, soils obscure the reason we talk about them - they hide the roots and the roots' state of vitality. Vitality is not the same as vigor. Vigor is a genetic factor, something the plant is endowed with because of how it was programmed by Mother Nature. It is also something we have no sway over. Vitality, on the other hand, is dynamic and variable, essentially a measure of how well a plant is/ has been able to deal with the cultural hand it has been dealt. Vitality is something you have much control over. It is the visual signals we get from the parts of the plant we CAN see that allow us to take measure of the condition of the roots, their vitality. Soil choice, combined with watering habits, have a very significant impact on root health. As you read, keep in mind that good root health and root function is an essential prerequisite to a healthy plant. You cannot expect to grow healthy plants w/o a healthy root system - it is impossible; which brings us full circle to why we discuss soils.

Poor root health is responsible for a very high percentage of the ills that befall plants, and the reasons people flock to the forums seeking help for widely varying issues. Poor root health means a reduction in vitality, which leaves the plant looking shabby while compromising its ability to defend itself against insects and diseases.

So let us talk about some things we can implement that should go a very long way toward providing you with the ability to consistently keep the root systems of your plants happy.

Container Soils - Water Movement and Retention XXIcolor>size>

I started this thread about 10 years ago, in March of '05. So far, it has reached the maximum number of posts GW allows to a single thread twenty times, which is much more attention than I ever imagined it would garner. I have reposted it in no small part because it has been great fun, and a wonderful catalyst in the forging of new friendships and in increasing my list of acquaintances with similar growing interests. The forum and email exchanges that stem so often from the subject are in themselves enough to make me hope the subject continues to pique interest, and the exchanges provide helpful information. Most of the motivation for posting this thread another time comes from the reinforcement of hundreds of participants over the years that strongly suggests the information provided in good-spirited collective exchange has made a significant difference in the quality of their growing experience. I'll provide links to some of the more recent of the previous dozen threads and more than 3,000 posts at the end of what I have written - just in case you have interest in reviewing them. Thank you for taking the time to examine this topic - I hope that any/all who read it take at least something interesting and helpful from it. I know it's long, and grows a little longer each time it's reposted. My hope is that you find it worth the read, and the time you invest results in a significantly improved growing experience. Since there are many questions about soils appropriate for use in containers, I'll post basic mix recipes later, in case any would like to try the soil. It will follow the information.

Before we get started, I'd like to mention that I wrote a reply and posted it to a thread some time ago, and I think it is well worth considering. It not only sets a minimum standard for what constitutes a 'GOOD' soil, but also points to the fact that not all growers look at container soils from the same perspective, which is why growers so often disagree on what makes a 'good' soil. I hope you find it thought provoking:

Is Soil X a 'Good' Soil?size>color>

I think any discussion on this topic must largely center around the word "GOOD", and we can broaden the term 'good' so it also includes 'quality' or 'suitable', as in "Is soil X a quality or suitable soil?"

How do we determine if soil A or soil B is a good soil? and before we do that, we'd better decide if we are going to look at it from the plant's perspective or from the grower's perspective, because often there is a considerable amount of conflict to be found in the overlap - so much so that one can often be mutually exclusive of the other.

We can imagine that grower A might not be happy or satisfied unless knows he is squeezing every bit of potential from his plants, and grower Z might not be happy or content unless he can water his plants before leaving on a 2-week jaunt, and still have a weeks worth of not having to water when he returns. Everyone else is somewhere between A and Z; with B, D, F, H, J, L, N, P, R, T, V, X, and Y either unaware of how much difference soil choice can make, or they understand but don't care.

I said all that to illustrate the large measure of futility in trying to establish any sort of standard as to what makes a good soil from the individual grower's perspective; but let's change our focus from the pointless to the possible.

We're only interested in the comparative degrees of 'good' and 'better' here. It would be presumptive to label any soil "best". 'Best I've found' or 'best I've used' CAN sometimes be useful for comparative purposes, but that's a very subjective judgment. Let's tackle 'good', then move on to 'better', and finally see what we can do about qualifying these descriptors so they can apply to all growers.

I would like to think that everyone would prefer to use a soil that can be described as 'good' from the plant's perspective. How do we determine what a plant wants? Surprisingly, we can use %s established by truly scientific studies that are widely accepted in the greenhouse and nursery trades to determine if a soil is good or not good - from the plant's perspective, that is. Rather than use confusing numbers that mean nothing to the hobby grower, I can suggest that our standard for a good soil should be, at a minimum, that you can water that soil properly. That means, that at any time during the growth cycle, you can water your plantings to beyond the point of saturation (so excess water is draining from the pot) without the fear of root rot or compromised root function or metabolism due to (take your pick) too much water or too little air in the root zone.

I think it's very reasonable to withhold the comparative basic descriptor, 'GOOD', from soils that can't be watered properly without compromising root function, or worse, suffering one of the fungaluglies that cause root rot. I also think anyone wishing to make the case from the plant's perspective that a soil that can't be watered to beyond saturation w/o compromising root health can be called 'good', is fighting on the UP side logic hill.

So I contend that 'good' soils are soils we can water correctly; that is, we can flush the soil when we water without concern for compromising root health/ function/ metabolism. If you ask yourself, "Can I water correctly if I use this soil?" and the answer is 'NO' ... it's not a good soil ... for the reasons stated above.

Can you water correctly using most of the bagged soils readily available? 'NO', I don't think I need to point to a conclusion.

What about 'BETTER'? Can we determine what might make a better soil? Yes, we can. If we start with a soil that meets the minimum standard of 'good', and improve either the physical and/or chemical properties of that soil, or make it last longer, then we have 'better'. Even if we cannot agree on how low we wish to set the bar for what constitutes 'good', we should be able to agree that any soil that reduces excess water retention, increases aeration, ensures increased potential for optimal root health, and lasts longer than soils that only meet some one's individual and arbitrary standard of 'good', is a 'better' soil.

All the plants we grow, unless grown from seed, have the genetic potential to be beautiful specimens. It's easy to say, and easy to see the absolute truth in the idea that if you give a plant everything it wants it will flourish and grow; after all, plants are programmed to grow just that way. Our growing skills are defined by our ability to give plants what they want. The better we are at it, the better our plants will grow. But we all know it's not that easy. Lifetimes are spent in careful study, trying to determine just exactly what it is that plants want and need to make them grow best.

Since this is a soil discussion, let's see what the plant wants from its soil. The plant wants a soil in which we have endeavored to provide in available form, all the essential nutrients, in the ratio in at which the plant uses them, and at a concentration high enough to prevent deficiencies yet low enough to make it easy to take up water (and the nutrients dissolved in the water). First and foremost, though, the plant wants a container soil that is evenly damp, never wet or soggy. Giving a plant what it wants, to flourish and grow, doesn't include a soil that is half saturated for a week before aeration returns to the entire soil mass, even if you only water in small sips. Plants might do 'ok' in some soils, but to actually flourish, like they are genetically programmed to do, they would need to be unencumbered by wet, soggy soils.

What defines our proficiency as growers is our ability to identify and reduce the effects of limiting factors, or by eliminating those limiting factors entirely; in other words, by clearing out those influences that stand in the way of the plant reaching its genetic potential. Even if we are able to make every other factor that influences plant growth/ vitality absolutely perfect, it could not make up for a substandard soil. For a plant to grow to its genetic potential, every factor has to be perfect, including the soil. Of course, we'll never manage to get to that point, but the good news is that as we get closer and closer, our plants get better and better; and hopefully, we'll get more from our growing experience.

In my travels, I've discovered it almost always ends up being that one little factor that we willingly or unwittingly overlooked that limits us in our abilities, and our plants in their potential. Mother Nature always sides with the hidden flaw.

Food for thought:
A 2-bit plant in a $10 soil has a future full of potential, where a $10 plant in a 2-bit soil has only a future filled with limitations. ~ Al

Container Soils - Water Movement & Retentionsize>color>

As container gardeners, our first priority should be to ensure the soils we use are adequately aerated for the life of the planting, or in the case of perennial material (trees, shrubs, garden perennials), from repot to repot. Soil aeration/drainage is the most important consideration in any container planting. Soils are the foundation that all container plantings are built on, and aeration is the very cornerstone of that foundation. Since aeration and drainage are inversely linked to soil particle size, it makes good sense to try to find and use soils or primary components with particles larger than peat/compost/coir. Durability and stability of soil components so they contribute to the retention of soil structure for extended periods is also extremely important. Pine and some other types of conifer bark fit the bill nicely, but I'll talk more about various components later.

What I will write also hits pretty hard against the futility in using a drainage layer of coarse materials in attempt to improve drainage. It just doesn't work. All it does is reduce the total volume of soil available for root colonization. A wick can be employed to remove water from the saturated layer of soil at the container bottom, but a drainage layer is not effective. A wick can be made to work in reverse of the self-watering pots widely being discussed on this forum now.

Consider this if you will:

Container soils are all about structure, and particle size plays the primary role in determining whether a soil is suited or unsuited to the application. Soil fills only a few needs in container culture. Among them are: Anchorage - a place for roots to extend, securing the plant and preventing it from toppling. Nutrient Retention - it must retain a nutrient supply in available form sufficient to sustain plant systems. Gas Exchange - it must be amply porous to allow air to move through the root system and gasses that are the by-product of decomposition to escape. Water - it must retain water enough in liquid and/or vapor form to sustain plants between waterings. Air - it must contain a volume of air sufficient to ensure that root function/metabolism/growth is not impaired. This is extremely important and the primary reason that heavy, water-retentive soils are so limiting in their affect. Most plants can be grown without soil as long as we can provide air, nutrients, and water, (witness hydroponics). Here, I will concentrate primarily on the movement and retention of water in container soil(s).

There are two forces that cause water to move through soil - one is gravity, the other capillary action. Gravity needs little explanation, but for this writing I would like to note: Gravitational flow potential (GFP) is greater for water at the top of the container than it is for water at the bottom. I'll return to that later.

Capillarity is a function of the natural forces of adhesion and cohesion. Adhesion is water's tendency to stick to solid objects like soil particles and the sides of the pot. Cohesion is the tendency for water to stick to itself. Cohesion is why we often find water in droplet form - because cohesion is at times stronger than adhesion; in other words, water's bond to itself can be stronger than the bond to the object it might be in contact with; cohesion is what makes water form drops. Capillary action is in evidence when we dip a paper towel in water. The water will soak into the towel and rise several inches above the surface of the water. It will not drain back into the source, and it will stop rising when the GFP equals the capillary attraction of the fibers in the paper.

There will be a naturally occurring "perched water table" (PWT) in containers when soil particulate size is under about .100 (just under 1/8) inch. Perched water is water that occupies a layer of soil at the bottom of containers or above coarse drainage layers that tends to remain saturated & will not drain from the portion of the pot it occupies. It can evaporate or be used by the plant, but physical forces will not allow it to drain. It is there because the capillary pull of the soil at some point will surpass the GFP; therefore, the water does not drain, it is said to be 'perched'. The smaller the size of the particles in a soil, the greater the height of the PWT. Perched water can be tightly held in heavy (comprised of small particles) soils where it perches (think of a bird on a perch) just above the container bottom where it will not drain; or, it can perch in a layer of heavy soil on top of a coarse drainage layer, where it will not drain.

Imagine that we have five cylinders of varying heights, shapes, and diameters, each with drain holes. If we fill them all with the same soil mix, then saturate the soil, the PWT will be exactly the same height in each container. This saturated area of the container is where roots initially seldom penetrate & where root problems frequently begin due to a lack of aeration and the production of noxious gasses. Water and nutrient uptake are also compromised by lack of air in the root zone. Keeping in mind the fact that the PWT height is dependent on soil particle size and has nothing to do with height or shape of the container, we can draw the conclusion that: If using a soil that supports perched water, tall growing containers will always have a higher percentage of unsaturated soil than squat containers when using the same soil mix. The reason: The level of the PWT will be the same in each container, with the taller container providing more usable, air holding soil above the PWT. From this, we could make a good case that taller containers are easier to grow in.

A given volume of large soil particles has less overall surface area when compared to the same volume of small particles and therefore less overall adhesive attraction to water. So, in soils with large particles, GFP more readily overcomes capillary attraction. They simply drain better and hold more air. We all know this, but the reason, often unclear, is that the height of the PWT is lower in coarse soils than in fine soils. The key to good drainage is size and uniformity of soil particles. Mixing large particles with small is often very ineffective because the smaller particles fit between the large, increasing surface area which increases the capillary attraction and thus the water holding potential. An illustrative question: How much perlite do we need to add to pudding to make it drain well?

I already stated I hold as true that the grower's soil choice when establishing a planting for the long term is the most important decision he/she will make. There is no question that the roots are the heart of the plant, and plant vitality is inextricably linked in a hard lock-up with root vitality. In order to get the best from your plants, you absolutely must have happy roots.

If you start with a water-retentive medium, you cannot effectively amend it to improve aeration or drainage characteristics by adding larger particulates. Sand, perlite, Turface, calcined DE ...... none of them will work effectively. To visualize why sand and perlite can't change drainage/aeration, think of how well a pot full of BBs would drain (perlite); then think of how poorly a pot full of pudding would drain (bagged soil). Even mixing the pudding and perlite/BBs together 1:1 in a third pot yields a mix that retains the drainage characteristics and PWT height of the pudding. It's only after the perlite become the largest fraction of the mix (60-75%) that drainage & PWT height begins to improve. At that point, you're growing in perlite amended with a little potting soil.

You cannot add coarse material to fine material and improve drainage or the ht of the PWT. Use the same example as above & replace the pudding with play sand or peat moss or a peat-based potting soil - same results. The benefit in adding perlite to heavy soils doesn't come from the fact that they drain better. The fine peat or pudding particles simply 'fill in' around the perlite, so drainage & the ht of the PWT remains the same. All perlite does in heavy soils is occupy space that would otherwise be full of water. Perlite simply reduces the amount of water a soil is capable of holding because it is not internally porous. IOW - all it does is take up space. That can be a considerable benefit, but it makes more sense to approach the problem from an angle that also allows us to increase the aeration AND durability of the soil. That is where Pine bark comes in, and I will get to that soon.

If you want to profit from a soil that offers superior drainage and aeration, you need to start with an ingredient as the basis for your soils that already HAVE those properties, by ensuring that the soil is primarily comprised of particles much larger than those in peat/compost/coir/sand/topsoil, which is why the recipes I suggest as starting points all direct readers to START with the foremost fraction of the soil being large particles, to ensure excellent aeration. From there, if you choose, you can add an appropriate volume of finer particles to increase water retention. You do not have that option with a soil that is already extremely water-retentive right out of the bag.

I fully understand that many are happy with the results they get when using commercially prepared soils, and I'm not trying to get anyone to change anything. My intent is to make sure that those who are having trouble with issues related to soil, understand why the issues occur, that there are options, and what they are.

We have seen that adding a coarse drainage layer at the container bottom does not improve drainage. It does though, reduce the volume of soil required to fill a container, making the container lighter. When we employ a drainage layer in an attempt to improve drainage, what we are actually doing is moving the level of the PWT higher in the pot. This simply reduces the volume of soil available for roots to colonize. Containers with uniform soil particle size from top of container to bottom will yield better and more uniform drainage and have a lower PWT than containers using the same soil with added drainage layers.

The coarser the drainage layer, the more detrimental to drainage it is because water is more (for lack of a better scientific word) reluctant to make the downward transition because the capillary pull of the soil above the drainage layer is stronger than the GFP. The reason for this is there is far more surface area on soil particles for water to be attracted to in the soil above the drainage layer than there is in the drainage layer, so the water perches. I know this goes against what most have thought to be true, but the principle is scientifically sound, and experiments have shown it as so. Many nurserymen employ the pot-in-pot or the pot-in-trench method of growing to capitalize on the science.

If you discover you need to increase drainage, you can simply insert an absorbent wick into a drainage hole & allow it to extend from the saturated soil in the container to a few inches below the bottom of the pot, or allow it to contact soil below the container where the earth acts as a giant wick and will absorb all or most of the perched water in the container, in most cases. Eliminating the PWT has much the same effect as providing your plants much more soil to grow in, as well as allowing more, much needed air in the root zone.

In simple terms: Plants that expire because of drainage problems either die of thirst because the roots have rotted and can no longer take up water, or they suffer/die because there is insufficient air at the root zone to insure normal root function, so water/nutrient uptake and root metabolism become seriously impaired.

To confirm the existence of the PWT and how effective a wick is at removing it, try this experiment: Fill a soft drink cup nearly full of garden soil. Add enough water to fill to the top, being sure all soil is saturated. Punch a drain hole in the bottom of the cup and allow the water to drain. When drainage has stopped, insert a wick into the drain hole . Take note of how much additional water drains. Even touching the soil with a toothpick through the drain hole will cause substantial additional water to drain. The water that drains is water that occupied the PWT. A greatly simplified explanation of what occurs is: The wick or toothpick "fools" the water into thinking the pot is deeper than it is, so water begins to move downward seeking the "new" bottom of the pot, pulling the rest of the water in the PWT along with it. If there is interest, there are other simple and interesting experiments you can perform to confirm the existence of a PWT in container soils. I can expand later in the thread.

I always remain cognizant of these physical principles whenever I build a soil. I have not used a commercially prepared soil in many years, preferring to build a soil or amend one of my 2 basic mixes to suit individual plantings. I keep many ingredients at the ready for building soils, but the basic building process usually starts with conifer bark and perlite. Sphagnum peat plays a secondary role in my container soils because it breaks down too quickly to suit me, and when it does, it impedes drainage and reduces aeration. Size matters. Partially composted conifer bark fines (pine is easiest to find and least expensive) works best in the following recipes, followed by uncomposted bark in the Bark fines of pine, fir or hemlock, are excellent as the primary component of your soils. The lignin contained in bark keeps it rigid and the rigidity provides air-holding pockets in the root zone far longer than peat or compost mixes that too quickly break down to a soup-like consistency. Conifer bark also contains suberin, a lipid sometimes referred to as nature's preservative. Suberin, more scarce as a presence in sapwood products and hardwood bark, dramatically slows the decomposition of conifer bark-based soils. It contains highly varied hydrocarbon chains and the microorganisms that turn peat to soup have great difficulty cleaving these chains - it retains its structure.

Note that there is no sand or compost in the soils I use. Sand, as most of you think of it, can improve drainage in some cases, but it reduces aeration by filling valuable macro-pores in soils. Unless sand particle size is fairly uniform and/or larger than about BB size, I leave it out of soils. Compost is too fine and unstable for me to consider using in soils in any significant volume as well. The small amount of micro-nutrients it supplies can easily be delivered by one or more of a number of chemical or organic sources that do not detract from drainage/aeration.

The basic soils I use ....

The 5:1:1 mix:

5 parts pine bark fines, dust - 3/8 (size is important
1 part sphagnum peat (not reed or sedge peat please)
1-2 parts perlite (coarse, if you can get it)
garden lime (or gypsum in some cases)
controlled release fertilizer (if preferred)

Big batch:
2-3 cu ft pine bark fines
5 gallons peat
5 gallons perlite
2 cups dolomitic (garden) lime (or gypsum in some cases)
2 cups CRF (if preferred)

Small batch:
3 gallons pine bark
1/2 gallon peat
1/2 gallon perlite
4 tbsp lime (or gypsum in some cases)
1/4 cup CRF (if preferred)

I have seen advice that some highly organic (practically speaking - almost all container soils are highly organic) container soils are productive for up to 5 years or more. I disagree and will explain why if there is interest. Even if you were to substitute fir bark for pine bark in this recipe (and this recipe will long outlast any peat based soil) you should only expect a maximum of two to three years life before a repot is in order. Usually perennials, including trees (they're perennials too) should be repotted more frequently to insure they can grow at as close to their genetic potential within the limits of other cultural factors as possible. If a soil is desired that will retain structure for long periods, we need to look more to inorganic components. Some examples are crushed granite, fine stone, VERY coarse sand (see above - usually no smaller than BB size in containers, please), Haydite, lava rock (pumice), Turface, calcined DE, and others.

For long term (especially woody) plantings and houseplants, I use a superb soil that is extremely durable and structurally sound. The basic mix is equal parts of screened pine bark, Turface, and crushed granite.

The gritty mix:

1 part uncomposted screened pine or fir bark (1/8-1/4")
1 part screened Turface
1 part crushed Gran-I-Grit (grower size) or #2 cherrystone
1 Tbsp gypsum per gallon of soil (eliminate if your fertilizer has Ca)
CRF (if desired)

I use 1/8 -1/4 tsp Epsom salts (MgSO4) per gallon of fertilizer solution when I fertilize if the fertilizer does not contain Mg (check your fertilizer - if it is soluble, it is probable it does not contain Ca or Mg. If I am using my currently favored fertilizer (I use it on everything), Dyna-Gro's Foliage-Pro in the 9-3-6 formulation, and I don't use gypsum or Epsom salts in the fertilizer solution.

If there is interest, you'll find some of the more recent continuations of the thread at the links below:

Post XX

Post XIX

Post XVIII

Post XVII

Post XVI


If you feel you were benefited by having read this offering, you might also find this thread about Fertilizing Containerized Plants helpful.

If you do find yourself using soils you feel are too water-retentive, you'll find some Help Dealing with Water Retentive Soils by following this embedded link.

If you happen to be at all curious about How Plant Growth is Limited, just click the embedded link.

Finally, if you are primarily into houseplants, you can find an Overview of the Basics that should provide help in avoiding the most common pitfalls.

As always - best luck. Good growing!! Let me know if you think there is anything I might be able to help you with.

Al

Comments (57)

  • Loveplants2 8b Virginia Beach, Virginia
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Al!!

    Just wanted to add my thanks for this awesome thread!! You have touched so many people and have taught so many growers.

    This thread can help beginners to the most experienced growers!!!

    I'm just thrilled to see it continue for someone who likes to help so many people... I'll always be thankful for all of your knowledge as well as your friendship!!

    I hope to see this thread continue to share with so many for a very long time!!! Congratulations!!!!

    Nice to see you all.

    Here's to an early Spring!

    Cheers!!

    Laura

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for the observations, YG.

    Thanks, Laura. You're certainly one of the great folks I've been blessed to meet here at GW. I guess I should thank Mike for sending you this way. As always, I appreciate your kindness, and regularly marvel at how far you'll go to help others get more from the efforts they put toward the growing experience.

    Good luck with the deck!!

    Al

  • the_yard_guy
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Your welcome Al. I just wanted to emphasize that the mix I spoke of in my earlier post works well in my location for the types of plants I'm growing. Local growing conditions and the types of plants you grow will often require adjustments in your soil mixes. Someone in a hot, dry location will probably want to use a slightly different soil mix than I do.

    The great thing about these mixes is that you can adjust them easily to meet your needs. Simply by changing the bark/perlite ratio you can increase or reduce the moisture content for your plants and you end up with a much better soil mix than most premixed or bagged soils.

    Hope that helps.

    TYG

  • halocline
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi there Al I'm new to this forum, ran across it by accident researching a Fukien tea problem. I began looking through topics & out of them all I settled on this one. I had no intention on doing a lot of reading at the time but ended up covering the entire thing plus over 300 follow-ups. since then I think I've read all of your threads, great job!

    it's strange I ended up here because at the time I was researching bonsai soils which can be very complicated. everyone everywhere has their opinion on whats best. when I ran across your gritty mix I thought it sounded simple enough.

    for a few months now those 3 ingredients have proven to be very hard to come by where I live ( CO ). I am however happy to say that as of last week I have finally acquired the crushed granite & Turface MVP ( 50lb bag $10.00 ) & this week I found a distributor that according to their website pics looks like they might have pine bark that can be screened down to 1/4-1/8 inch particles. on top of these items I also have some lava rock, haydite & perlite. for the time being i'm going to make your gritty mix & try it out since i'm unhappy with the current bonsai soil I have.

    thanks for all the information, your a great author with a wonderful writing style, very informative yet easy to understand. I cant believe I just happened upon your thread by chance.

    Thanks again.

  • halocline
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    there is one other thing I wanted to ask you, have you ever used " Air pots " or " Rootmakers " ? if so do they work well & can you use the gritty mix in them?

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm not sure what to say, other than I really appreciate the time you (and the others who have offered their thoughts) took to express a kindness, so thank you very much.

    ..... interesting that your search for greater proficiency at the art of bonsai brought you here, because it's the same thing that brought me here. Almost everything I know about the plant sciences is an outgrowth of the same quest you're on.

    I hope you fare well and let us know what you think after you've been able assess the concept based on your practical experience.

    Take care.

    Al

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You CAN use gritty mix in air pots/ Rootmakers, but if the pots are resting on soil, the 5:1:1 might be a better choice because you'll be employing the earth as a giant wick - so a PWT won't be in play as a potential limitation.

    If I get a small tree that needs some TLC or I want it to put on some fast growth, I'll often plant them in a colander from the dollar store or a large pond basket (a variation of the root managing pots you asked about). That extra gas exchange and need to water more frequently is good for root health, and the finer root system these types of pots promote makes for a canopy with better/ finer ramification, so a plus for bonsai.

    Al

    Al

  • halocline
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    thanx for the reply Al, I was thinking about using some small air pots as training pots to build a strong lateral root structure so when it comes time to transplant into a bonsai pot root pruning wouldn't be a problem since you would have a lot of shallow lateral roots left afterwards.

    I also saw some pics you posted where you used a drill bit to make holes at the trunk base & used rooting gel to create stronger nebari I would very much like to know more about that process. that's probably a topic for the bonsai forum. thanks again Al.

    Rob.

    Rob.

  • thunderbear48
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Why doesn't the 5:1:1 ratio stay the same in each Batch?

    Why in your article do you not address the importance of PH testing, or a complete soil test.

    Commercial growing of container plants is studied by the major Universities and is available on-line.

    Why is peat moss so important?
    http://www.peatmoss.com/blog/using-peat-moss/home-gardeners-why/home-gardeners-why-is-peat-moss-so-important/

    Soilless Substrate Management For Nursery Crops

    by Dava Hayden

    Extension Associate for Nursery Crops

    http://www2.ca.uky.edu/HLA/Dunwell/SoillessSubstratemgt.html

  • thunderbear48
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Why doesn't the 5:1:1 ratio stay the same in each Batch?

    Why in your article do you not address the importance of PH testing, or a complete soil test.

    Commercial growing of container plants is studied by the major Universities and is available on-line.

    Why is peat moss so important?
    http://www.peatmoss.com/blog/using-peat-moss/home-gardeners-why/home-gardeners-why-is-peat-moss-so-important/

    Soilless Substrate Management For Nursery Crops

    by Dava Hayden

    Extension Associate for Nursery Crops

    http://www2.ca.uky.edu/HLA/Dunwell/SoillessSubstratemgt.html

  • siarl_bychan
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I hope I'm not repeating a reply or question from earlier in this post...Lord...and what a post! (I searched and didn't come up with a reply)

    With the popularity of sphagnum or peat moss possibly outstripping supply in the future, could a coir mixture ingredient be used in it's place? I've been using strictly a coir mixture as a seed starter and it works wonders. It seems to retain the correct amount of water without being overly saturated. I live in the Chihuahuan desert and being from the Appalachians, I found that there is a learning curve when it comes to soil requirements for container gardening here in this harsh environment. Here I find that a soil mix needs to be able to retain more moisture and I water more often.

    I raise, just for personal purposes since I enjoy a challenge, both native desert plants as well as a vegetable garden. Again, even for desert plants (otherwise there would be more of them in the desert) there is a very tiny window where seeds may sprout and survive to grow a thick skin or bark quickly before the summer scorching heat arrives to wither any that may have been late seedlings. So, I start seeds earlier in the winter inside my home in a tiny greenhouse.

    I have begun to gather my containers for the vegetable garden aspect and came across this apparently most popular thread addressing soil mixtures and water retention. I've been about to gather some horse manure from the local stable as well as a non-Miracle Grow mix I have found seems to work. However, I would like to improve my chances at a successful garden. Is this mix recommended for container vegetable gardening as well. I've noticed the term, "long term" container plants being used. But vegetable gardening would not necessarily be long term but only a season. And again, would a coir ingredient be a good substitute for peat or sphagnum moss?

    Thanks so much for any advice.

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The question of whether or not it's "appropriate" to use peat moss in soils often comes up, and most people have opinions based on what type of literature they read. I decided to look into the scarcity of peat moss - it's not scarce. More later.

    PLEASE don't think I'm taking a shot at you, because I'm not. When you say your soil needs to hold more moisture, you're deciding from the perspective of convenience. It doesn't need to hold more moisture to make the plant happy, it needs to hold more moisture to keep the gardener happy. I realize that's not really fair because you can't be expected to order your priorities around your plants, but there is more than a kernel of truth in it, if only because there are usually 2 entirely different perspectives involved in any close look at water retention.

    The term 'long term' is usually used as a way to help people decide between the two different soils mentioned above. Usually I put all my mixed floral plantings and veggies in the 5:1:1 mix and my woody plants, houseplants, and succulents/cacti in the gritty mix. Things that are to be in the same soil for 1-2 growth cycles go in 5:1:1, plants in same soil for 2 or more growth cycles go in gritty mix. I like the gritty mix more because it's easier to get top results in, but it's also more labor intensive and costly to make, which enters into the equation.

    If you like coir, no need to give it up because of anything I say, but here's something I wrote about peat vs coir:

    Peat vs. Coir

    Sphagnum peat and coir have nearly identical water retention curves. They both retain about 90-95% of their volume in water at saturation and release it over approximately the same curve until they both lock water up so tightly it's unavailable for plant uptake at about 30-33% saturation. Coir actually has less loft than sphagnum peat, and therefore, less aeration. Because of this propensity, coir should be used in mixes at lower %s than peat. Because of the tendency to compact, in the greenhouse industry, coir is primarily used in containers in sub-irrigation (bottom-watering) situations. Many sources produce coir that is high in soluble salts, so this can also be an issue.

    Using coir as the primary component of container media virtually eliminates lime or dolomitic lime as a possible Ca source because of coir's high pH (6+). Gypsum should be used as a Ca source, which eliminates coir's low S content. All coir products are very high in K, very low in Ca, and have a potentially high Mn content, which can interfere with the uptake of Fe. Several studies have also shown that the significant presence of phenolic allelochemicals in fresh coir can be very problematic for a high % of plants, causing poor growth and reduced yields.

    I haven't tested coir thoroughly, but I have done some testing of CHCs (coconut husk chips) with some loose controls in place. After very thoroughly leaching and rinsing the chips, I made a 5:1:1 soil of pine bark:peat:perlite (which I know to be very productive) and a 5:1:1 mix of CHCs:peat:perlite. I planted 6 cuttings of snapdragon and 6 cuttings of Coleus (each from the same plant to help reduce genetic influences) in containers (same size/shape) of the different soils. I added dolomitic lime to the bark soil and gypsum to the CHC soil. After the cuttings struck, I eliminated all but the three strongest in each of the 4 containers. I watered each container with a weak solution of MG 12-4-8 with STEM added at each watering, and watered on an 'as needed basis', not on a schedule. The only difference in the fertilizer regimen was the fact that I included a small amount of MgSO4 (Epsom salts) to provide MG (the dolomitic lime in the bark soil contained the MG, while the gypsum (CaSO4) in the CHC soil did not. This difference was necessary because or the high pH of CHCs and coir.) for the CHC soil.

    The results were startling. In both cases, the cuttings grown in the CHC's exhibited I just find it very difficult for a solid case to be made (besides "It works for me") for the use of coir or CHC's. They're more expensive and more difficult to use effectively. The fact that some believe peat is in short supply (no where near true, btw) is easily offset by the effect of the carbon footprint of coir in its trek to the US from Sri Lanka or other exotic locales.
    That's the view from here. YMMV

    More info: Coir study

    Al

  • siarl_bychan
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you for your response. I took the info as it should have been taken and so I did not take it negatively. I do appreciate your opinion and advice. I have not used coir as a soil mix. I was only asking if it could be used. Thus far my experience with it is only as a seed starter mix.

    I will be considering the suggested mix as I go shopping tomorrow for more supplies. I live in a very remote part of west Texas so I will probably have to sub some ingredients that I can't find. However, what intrigued me most about your theories and results were the size of the aggregates and the wicking aspect which I think until now I had often thought the opposite as you had stated that most would.

    Thank you again for your input. Wonderful post!!

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for the kind words. I'm very happy you found value in the information contained in the post. Who would have thought soil could be so interesting, eh?

    Al

  • siarl_bychan
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Okay. So...I didn't follow the Grit recipe ingredient for ingredient. Again, I live in a very remote part of west Texas and shopping for us is a 2 1/2 hour drive to Fort Stockton, TX. and I couldn't find what I needed so I have relied on our local General Store, which really does us well. I found a 2 cu ft bag of sphagnum peat, Sold. I then went with the next best thing and that was a living mulch and then I had several bags of potting soil that I advised already that I had been using. I mixed that all together in a planter (stock tank). I just ordered Turface from Amazon (50 lb bag) and then the only place that I found Gran-I-Grit wouldn't ship outside of MN. So I ordered several cubic ft bags of pumice instead. I then ordered the Dyna Pro (no wait...that's a golf tourney), Dyna-Gro Fol Pro 9-3-6 instead of getting gypsum. I'm going to mix this up with the soil-y mix where the greater part would be the aggregate. I'll see what happens and report on it. I'm using this mixture for the blackberry plants since they will be in the mixture long term. I'll probably use this mix for the other crops as well. I forgot to mention that I also purchased several bags of Pine Bark Fines from Amazon as well. All of this was relatively cheap however, it does all add up. What are your thoughts on using pea gravel?

  • the_yard_guy
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Regarding pea gravel, I personally would avoid using it. At one time I tried growing a couple of tree seedlings in containers using pine bark and pea gravel. Although the trees grew fairly well in that mix the containers were very heavy to move. Also, the pea gravel I used was a bit larger than I would have liked, and the bark/gravel soil mix dried out very quickly.

    When I repotted the seedlings out of the bark/gravel mix I found the soil to be compacted and difficult to remove from the roots. It took a lot of work to untangle the bark/gravel mix from the root mass.

    BTW, if you have any auto parts stores in your area you could try substituting diatomaceous earth (DE) for Turface. The two work in similar ways and in some cases DE can be easier to find than Turface. I experimented with a few trees using pine bark and DE last year and had very good results.

    Good luck.

    TYG

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree. Pea gravel tends to be too large.
    The other issue is that it is round in shape. Sharp edged grit tends to hold a mix open better, in my experience.

    Josh

  • halocline
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Al, thought you might get a kick out of this.
    In a previous post I had mentioned Haydite and you had responded:

    Particles in the .100 - .125 range are large enough that they don't support perched water. As the particle size gets larger, water retention decreases, which is why I don't use large mineral material like Haydite. If I could find it in a size close to 1/8", I'd use it instead of grit (crushed granite or quartzite) in my soils, but I've never seen it small enough to make me want to use it.

    Thanks to you I now have all of the components to make 5-1-1, 1-1-1 however I'm still curious about other material.
    Last week I did an internet search for Haydite which led me to the website of a worldwide aggregate distributor and the email address for their V.P. of sales. What happened next is as follows:
    START EMAIL-

    Hi there, I am wondering if you distribute small partical size haydite ( 1/8th inch ) anywhere in Denver, Co.?

    We do not have a distributor in Denver. However, we do have a block producer in Colorado Springs that purchases a ¼ x 0 blend from us. If you can provide me with a little more detail on what you looking to use our material for, I can possibly find another solution for you.

    I mix my own bonsai soil hence the 1/8th inch size. I have never used it before but if I can find some locally I was wanting to compare it's performance to the material I currently use. I'm not sure what you mean by 1/4x0 blend.

    For example, the 1/4 x 1/8 material will pass through a 1/4” screen and be retained on an 1/8” screen. We have the ability to blend these size together to meet customer needs. So, a 1/4 x 0 blend is combination of the bottom two sizes, or 1/4" down to the pan (dust sized particles).
    I imagine that you are looking at using a 1/4 x 1/8 size. And since you are working with bonsai’s, I assume that you aren’t looking for a large volume either. Unfortunately, I do not have any customers close to you for you to inquire about buying from. How much are you looking for? I would be happy to send you some directly.

    You are correct about the size, but for starters I would only want 3or4 quarts. If that would be possible w/o being terribly expensive, great. If not that's ok.
    Thank you for your prompt & courteous service.

    We typically charge $6.25 for a 1 cubic foot bag plus shipping. However, I will send you the amount that you need at no cost to you. I would just like some feedback after you have used it. Is that ok? If so, just provide me with an address to send the material to.

    That's a very generous offer and would be greatly appreciated. I have wanted to try this material for some time.
    Again, thank you so much Daron. I will let you know how it works out.- END of E-mail.

    Needless to say I was pleasantly surprised, what a nice guy!
    Anyway Al I am hoping you will be kind enough to share your idea's on how you would incorporate Haydite into a soil mix.
    Thank you so much.

    Rob

  • siarl_bychan
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well. I will soon find out the results of using pea gravel. I was afraid that my blackberry plants would not survive very long outside of a soil so I used the ratio of aggregate to organic material from the Grit recipe. 2 parts aggregate to 1 part organic material. It seemed to drain very well and I gave the soil under the plant a wetting of fish and kelp emulsion. Seated the plant and then placed the remaining amount of mix then side soaked it with the emulsion. I have already ordered Turface, Pine Bark Fines, I can't seem to find the Gran-I-Grit so far. I ordered the Dina Gro so most of the Grit recipe is on it's way minus the Gran-I-Grit.

  • PRO
    Springtime Builders
    9 years ago

    I know its a new format for Houzz now but anyone have suggestions on finding the rest of Al's comments for the main overview? Hope they fix it.

  • siarl_bychan
    9 years ago

    I just found a company that sells grit. It isn't the trademark name of "Gran-I-Grit" it is sold under the name Cherry Stone and it is #2 size which is what Al recommended. The company is Midland Hardware. I did find another company called Fleet something but they shipping was outrageous. For 3 fifty pound bags Fleet wanted to charge $153 for shipping. Midland Hardware is only charging $31 for two fifty pound bags. I don't know if anyone else has discovered this already but all I did was do a search for Gran-I-Grit on Explorer search engine and it came up with those two companies. That completes my ingredient search for the Grit recipe.

  • thunderbear48
    9 years ago

    • Gran-i-Grit currently costs $78.50/ton ($0.04/lb OR

    $1.96/50 lb bag)*.

    • No bulk discounts offered.

    • No sales tax charged.

    http://www.fertrell.com/2014_sep_oct.pdf

    H and H Feed 107 Wiley WayBuda, TEXAS, 78610Phone: 512.878.7283E-mail: austinsbestpoultry@gmail.com

  • thunderbear48
    9 years ago

    Some day, you will find out that what AL recommended, isn't always what you need. Gran-i-Grit can be found at a Feed Store. Or else there are a lot of different products that you can buy. Look for Granite sand, its all over TX.


  • Nil13 usda:10a sunset:21 LA,CA (Mount Wash.)
    9 years ago

    Granite sand is too fine for aggregate media.

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree with Nil again. Sometimes one needs to really look at a thread's history to see the depth of the discussions and some of the brainstorming that goes into alternate thinking. Almost all of the issues TB raises as a challenge have been discussed at length and 'covered' hundreds of times on this thread since it's conception, and on many other's as well.

    Halocline - thanks for the forward of your conversation with Darin about the size of Haydite. You'd be doing the bonsai community a great service if you can convince him there's a container culture market for the product in the .109 - .156 size range.

    Thanks for posting!

    Al

  • PRO
    Springtime Builders
    9 years ago

    Thanks for calling attention to it! I was actually trying to send other traffic here but cant really do it till its fixed.

    tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a) thanked Springtime Builders
  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I just noticed the OP was cut off in the middle, too - as well as all of my other lengthy posts with all kinds of helpful info. I wrote Tamara a note in the hope she can get the ball rolling toward a solution. It wouldn't hurt if any other interested parties wrote admin about the problem as well.


    Take good care, guys.


    Al

  • Tiffany, purpleinopp Z8b Opp, AL
    9 years ago

    Frustrating, I wanted to paste this info for someone on FB.



  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Hopefully they'll be able to fix the issue. and make the post whole again.


    Al

  • halocline
    9 years ago

    Did you try the " contact us " link below & submit a request?

    Rob

  • Loveplants2 8b Virginia Beach, Virginia
    9 years ago
    <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><md>I sure hope so because this thread as well as others have so much information for all of us... I also like to share with others ..

    I really like your picture Al... That is one of my favorite books! The Little Prince is simply awesome!!

    I hope Tamara gets this fixed for us.. She really helped me get set up with the change
  • halocline
    9 years ago

    I just emailed them & tried to be as specific as possible about the thread. Who is Tamara?

    Email -

    In the container gardening forum there is a thread titled “ Container soils - water movement and retention XXI “ written by “ tapla “. Only a small portion of the topic is shown. the thread cannot continue unless people can read the original post in it’s entirety.

    This is VERY important information and needs to be restored. There are attached links that are also missing.

    Your prompt attention to this matter would be greatly appreciated.

    Thank you, Rob

    Rob

    tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a) thanked halocline
  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks, Rob. I sent a similar request directly to Tamara. Tomo, I'll resend a general request via the 'contact us' pathway.


    REALLY cold here - going down to -15 tonight, they say.


    Al

  • halocline
    9 years ago

    Your very welcome Al, I had the choice of request or email so I thought email might be more direct. Amazingly enough it's still 50 degree's here.

    Stay warm, Rob.

  • k8 (7b, NJ)
    9 years ago

    i think all posts over a certain character/word limit were cut off . . . i asked tamara about it in a different thread and she said: "The longer posts were truncated during the transition when they ported them over. But they are still intact in the logs and they can be restored." unfortunately idk what she means by logs . . . ? lol

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Latest word from admin:

    "Hi
    there,

    Good
    news, we are actively working on a fix for the older posts that were truncated
    and have already fixed this issue for new posts. We expect to have the old
    content restored in the next few days. Don't worry, it is all safe right now,
    just temporarily hidden. Thanks for reaching out!

    Houzz
    Support"


    Al

  • halocline
    9 years ago

    Hi everyone, I just received a reply to the email I sent yesterday.

    We are aware that some longer posts were truncated in the transition. The content isn't lost, but just needs to be restored. We hope to have it fixed shortly.

    I'm glad to see that they ARE listening.

    Rob

  • Loveplants2 8b Virginia Beach, Virginia
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Great to hear!!! !!! They really are trying hard to fix the issues. It's so nice to see the quick responses! I'm so glad we will have all of the great information restored to its proper threads!! Thanks to everyone who sent messages to administration . Have a great weekend!!

    Laura

    tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a) thanked Loveplants2 8b Virginia Beach, Virginia
  • halocline
    9 years ago

    Has anyone asked how many comments can be made for a single topic?

  • halocline
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi to everyone who may have read my earlier post about Haydite, I got the package in the mail today. I'm going to make a gritty mix using the Haydite in place of the grit.

    This is a 1/4x1/8 inch blend.

    What do ya think?

    ( for a better view run your cursor over the picture.)

    Rob

    tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a) thanked halocline
  • Nil13 usda:10a sunset:21 LA,CA (Mount Wash.)
    9 years ago

    Oh my, that looks lovely.

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Looks nice! How does it compare in size to the grit?


    Al

  • Loveplants2 8b Virginia Beach, Virginia
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    That is beautiful!! Nice..

    Laura

  • halocline
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks guys, I received two 1 gallon ziplocks of it.

    Here's a side by side of the Haydite & grit

    Rob


  • Ohiofem 6a/5b Southwest Ohio
    9 years ago

    Al: Maybe you should just start a new thread and post your entire intro. This post is not terribly meaningful to newcomers. They said new posts won't be truncated, and it could be some time before they restore all the truncated posts. I also wonder if we can still get email when someone comments in a post we are subscribed to?

  • Loveplants2 8b Virginia Beach, Virginia
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Robin!!!

    I'm still getting notifications on the threads that I post to. You can adjust your setting by going to " your Houzz" then ' edit profile' then hit ' advanced settings' that should help fix what you need as far as notifications.

    If you look at the bottom of this thread where you would comment, you will see in green letters " switch off notifications about new threads". If its already off you can click it back on.

    Always nice to see you!!!

    One of my Plumeria trees is blooming inside right now. It's supposed to be a dark pink, but its yellow. Go figure!! ;-)

    I agree about Al reposting if they can't get it fixed. I am sure he has it saved on his computer. ( I hope so) I just worry about all of the other threads, fertilizer, intro for beginners etc. so much information that needs to be fixed for the new people.

    We need this great information for us to share as well as for the new people searching for the great threads.

    Happy Valentine's Day, Robin , Al and everyone!!

    Laura

    tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a) thanked Loveplants2 8b Virginia Beach, Virginia
  • Ohiofem 6a/5b Southwest Ohio
    9 years ago

    Thanks, Laura. Happy Valentines Day to you, too! I have a blooming Clivia, so that makes me happy. The lovely plumeria you gifted me with is dormant, but alive. I got your comment, so maybe that function is OK. I'm still trying to figure out how to limit searches to a specific forum and preview my posts before submitting. But, that's off topic, so I'll sign off.

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I already tried. After I 'copy' the text and right click in the text box, the 'paste' action remains inactive. ;-(


    Thanks, Laura!


    Al

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Hey, guys - This was originally a very long thread, and it was truncated at only a fraction of its original length when Houzz acquired GW. I figured out a way to get by the size limitation and reposted the full length thread with some pictures and a little new content, so if you'd like to follow the link below, please, to the full length version - we can continue the conversation there.


    Thanks, and I hope to see you soon.


    Click me and I'll take you to the new thread post haste!