I just about got lost in here. Not the best place for my question ,but thanks for the replies. As my room is so limited I will go with an increase in sphagnum moss. I do not like that stuff, but I can live with it! Thanks
Curt~

jodik,

>> Since switching mediums and implementing a more inorganic approach to container gardening, I've had no rot or fungal issues, whatsoever. My bulbs are healthy and growing well.

The medium I use and the results I get tell me that organic mediums and techniques are best saved for the garden, and have little value in the world of long term container growth. And Al's science supports these ideas.

The variables in gardening are too great to give soil recipes for "one size fits all", unless the medium proposed can be easily tweaked to fit all conditions. Al's medium suggestions are just that.

We're also dealing with variables in the experience and knowledge of gardeners... many who don't know there are vast differences between gardening in containers and gardening in the ground, don't know the differences between organic versus inorganic, and even some who haven't a clue about what constitutes proper watering techniques. Therefore, touting a soil that can't be obtained everywhere, and without giving scientific backing, could be detrimental to the outcomes and experiences therein. I'm sometimes slow but while I was watering my plants a few moments ago, I realized our difference. You "know" how different mediums, conditions, plants interact, I "understand" how they do. Big difference.

This is why I could not answer some questions - not that it bothers me. I cannot explain, in scientific terms, why it takes a certain type of soil to work in an specific environment, but I understand what it takes to get plants to grow.

Happy trails,

Mike

Start with bark, and modify with grit.

That's about the easiest one-size-fits-all recommendation one could make.

Josh

You lost me, Mike... know and understand are synonyms. What if I said I recognize how soils work and how plants grow?

Know means "to have a practical understanding of", "to discern", "to possess knowledge, understanding, or information", etc...

I'm familiar with, I perceive, I'm cognizant of, and aware of how soils work and how plants grow. I grasp the workings of mediums and why plants behave the way they do in different soils.

The science part is just the facts.

jodik,

I know, I sometimes lose myself. I use to write advertorials (ads in the form of articles) for lawyers and doctors (but not Indian Chiefs) that appeared in upscale city magazines across the US. Piece of cake, but trying to explain how I garden is almost an exercise in futility. Maybe this will help:

Many years ago, we had this one patch of tobacco that was not doing well. The other 16.5 acres, in all kinds of ground, had plants that were knee-high, but this one patch, and it was good soil, well, its plants were barely ankle high. The plants were not growing. The problem was that for some reason, the soil was staying damp; not wet enough to cause rotting or anything, but still it was not getting dry.

A cardinal rule, which every farmer "knows" is that one does not work soil when it is damp.

We had a Farmall Cub tractor we used to cultivate the plants and at that time of the year, we replaced the two front shovels, that were in a 3" "V" shape, with very narrow ones that allowed us to add ammonia nitrate a few inches below the surface. It was called side-dressing and it gave the tobacco a huge shot of fertilizer.

What did I do? I lowered those front plows in their slots as far as they could go and raised the ones on their sides a bit. And even though the ground was damp, and I knew that it is a bad idea to plow damp ground, I put Cubbie in first gear, lowered the plows as far as they could go (half-way was normal, and that was without those front plows being dropped) and plowed those plants. (The plows were about four inches from the plant.

The result - first, dad didn't kick my butt for breaking a cardinal rule, probably because I didn't tell him what I did. But secondly, within three weeks, that patch had caught up to the others.

I'll stipulate that I cannot begin to explain how I could begin to tell someone, faced with a similar situation, why scientifically they should loosen the soil, especially since it was not any different soil than a lot of the other tobacco patches we had. Maybe I "knew," "understood," "sensed," or just plain "guessed" what was needed. But it worked.

Fort years later, I grow things the same way - and my luck is holding up!

Mike

Mike,

I love your story!

It may seem utterly insincere fo me to turn right around and level a criticism, but I am hoping you can understand I mean you no harm.

You appear to have a great deal of in ground/field experience. That's valuable.

At the same time, if you do not understand the significance between in ground and container growing then you end up the way many experts have including authors like Ed Smith (The Vegetable Gardener's Bible) who really knew their stuff when it came to in ground growing and made the mistake of thinking it could all be carried over to container growing.

Container growing will be the same as in ground growing on the same say as fish living in a lake are comparable to fish in an aquarium.

justaguy,

I've learned from this thread that even though some posts come across as very cruel and sometimes demeaning, that is a limitation of the forum and not how people feel. No offense taken.

I'm not about to posit I know container gardening inside and out - I did okay, not great but not badly with 45 pots of pepper plants the first time I ever tried the idea - and I would think that the success I have had in my GH, lack of light notwithstanding, says I have learned a bit more. But I'm still a long way from advancing to the level of educated idiot.

Another anecdote: when I was a kid I went to the Legion post with my dad. Someone had brought in a gizmo that converted power from a car battery to something one could plug an electrical appliance into and it would work. Well, they couldn't get it to work, even though some of the people were electrical engineers. But one old guy somehow knew what was wrong - he took a huge hammer, beat on the converter and it worked perfectly.

I stand by my belief that if I make a medium that hold moisture but can still drain, does not compact and is large enough to support the root ball at its largest size, plus I feed it with the water and nutrients the plant needs depending on its stage of growth, it will work and work great. But as I said, the proof will be in the pudding. Hopefully, depending on how much my tomato seedlings grow, I'll be able to do a test grow. I'll post the results - good, bad or so-so!

Thanks,

Mike

I stand by my belief that if I make a medium that hold moisture but can still drain, does not compact and is large enough to support the root ball at its largest size, plus I feed it with the water and nutrients the plant needs depending on its stage of growth, it will work and work great. But as I said, the proof will be in the pudding. Hopefully, depending on how much my tomato seedlings grow, I'll be able to do a test grow. I'll post the results - good, bad or so-so!

And I think your belief is on solid ground. I do not challenge you in any way.

I *would* like to encourage you to try a container media (unburied) that is even more fast draining than what you are using and giving it a try.

Did you see my post about the project I want to do for the County Fair? The containers will not only be unburied, but also clear. I won't be able to check them daily, twice a week during the spring/summer will be a challenge. All veggie or fruit type plants: peanuts, corn, green beans, carrots, strawberries, potatoes, onions, basil, garlic - maybe a few others.

A challenge? Geez, I don't even raise corn in my garden - I can buy it cheaper than I can grow it (considering the room I would have to give up). And I have volunteered to grow it in a container? At a place where thousands of people will see it? And you want me to try something different than what I know?

In the words of Al from Tool Time: "I don't think so, Tim!"

As stated, I will post results, even if they make me look stupid!

Mike

I agree and feel it is important to see how other people grow successfully. Speaking for myself, I welcome your experience and knowledge. I have done something similar with my herb gardens in large whiskey barrels outside my kitchen. Mine were not buried as deeply, only about 1/3 in the soil. I have not changed the soil in years and my herbs return each spring and reseed easily.

I have good soil, as I compost everything. I also use bagged mixes with good results. There are so many variables to growing well, there is no magic bullet. Experience is the best teacher, not a mix. In my mind, sunlight is king. Everything else follows.

Thanks for a great thread and your kindness.

Jane

Mike, trust me, you will NOT look stupid. We look forward to your results and generosity in sharing your methods.
Pat

Pat,

I hope you are right and my plants don't look like Charlie Brown's Christmas Tree!

One complication, might me major, is the timing. I need plants to be mature but not finished by August 10, both in the containers and raised bed (which I have never done either!) I've counted backwards and figure I will add 10 days to the Days to Maturity to decide when to plant seeds or transplant seedlings. But I also have to find plants that will withstand normal July and early August temps. The varieties of peas and cucumbers, and to a point green beans I usually grow are ready a few to several weeks before then.

But flipping the coin, I am of the mindset that if I learn something from an endeavor, even if I don't come close to the goal, it was not a failure. Plus, I can always claim that thieves stole the containers, thugs poured poison on the dirt or a strange hail storm that only hit a couple hundred square feet destroyed my project (J/K).

I publish a weekly newspaper and frequently write about growing plants, especially veggies, and I admit - I have been surprised that lots of subscribers enjoy reading updates. Cincinnati is very urban but also very Mid-western - almost everyone can tell you of a relative that does or use to raise their own food. I'm hoping they will like the display at the fair.

Mike

Mike, you have the spirit to do anything you want, I can tell. These learning processes keep us young. I am a lot older than you and and one of the biggest lessons I learn every single day is that we learn from every failure and our enthusiasm is never in vain. We learn something from every single person we have ever known and everything we have ever done. These Garden Web forums can teach many things from the successes and failure of its members. I hope you keep us informed of your progress because I for one have only recently developed an interest in growing vegetables. Last summer they were in half whiskey barrels, next year I may follow your lead. Who knows?
Thank you for joining.
Pat

Pat,

"one of the biggest lessons I learn every single day is that we learn from every failure and our enthusiasm"

I have learned from my failures, that is why I use the 5.1.1. and the gritty mix in my containers, and can finally be successful! Thank God for someone loving enough to share the recipes!

Thanks..:-)

Pat,

>> I am a lot older than you Gee, you make me feel good! How old do you think I am?

Mike

Pat, I am highly offended.

With all my success over the years here, you never told me how good I am doing growing in a medium I choose for my free spirit! All the pics and everything..

Does it have something to do with the mix and it's aurthor..I hope not.:-)

In fact Pat, here are my plants in my mix, indoors up north indoors...Hope you like them in case you missed them..

Here is a link that might be useful: my houseplants

In fact Pat, here are my plants in my mix, indoors up north indoors...Hope you like them in case you missed them..

Here is a link that might be useful: my houseplants

Wow, meyermike! Your plants look amazing. What size pot are you keeping the lemons in, and how tall are the trees?

Mike,
I so agree! We need to talk one on one about citrus! Mine need help! LOL!

Oh, I wish I could get lost in that room!

JoJo

Trying to make new people feel welcome on these Garden Forums, meyermike. Why are you harassing me?
Pat

Pat,

I appreciate it, even more so because a couple of people didn't exactly like me posting!

We had some sun the past couple of days, almost as much as we have had the rest of the month combined and my tomato plants are loving it. Starting to see a lot of pre-blooms forming on plants again.

Went to the fair board meeting last night - they will have a plant sale (where people can sell plants, last year I was the only vendor and made out pretty good) on May 1. I can hardly wait to start sowing seeds!

MIke

Pat,

I am can assure you I am not harrassing you..Therefore the the smiley face..In fact I have been cordial to you.

I am alot nicer than you think..My intentions are good here, but I am not sure of others, and it is not for me to judge...

But making those of us feel welcomed here that grow in what some don't agree with, and seeing the fine results of that, would only be fair to everyone, right?..So I to would welcome your comments and compliments on my hard work, yours and jane, since you seem to work together, since for some reason Al can no longer...:-(

I am sorry for the misunderstanding...

You must know what it feels like to be harrased such as Al was here and others. I'm certainly the last to harras anyone.

I had 6 people in my family read this over to make sure I didn't offend you or harras you, and they all said to would appreciate this post...;-)

I am sorry, if I asked for your approval on my plants.:-(

Hi ykerzner,

Thankyou for your compliment! I am growing some in 6inch containers and soem in ten..Some in plastic but most in clay..Lol. Let me look at the trees you are asking about since I can't see them here at work, then I will let you know.. Thankyou so much

Jojo, I can't wait until you start citrus..I will help you every step of the way! You are welcomed to come over anytime you want..:-)

Mike..:-)

Jane,

Not sure about being lucky to have a GH. I have a tomato (Legend) that is getting close to ripe. By my calculations, county the cost to build the GH, including heaters, pumps, containers, potting mix, etc., that tomato will cost about $2500 per pound! I could have flown to the Caribbean and bought a pound for less than that!

I jest, the GH and most of the equipment will last for years and years, I'll (hopefully) have dozens more pounds this year and thousands of pounds in years to come. But it is a hobby and passion. Some people play the lottery, others go to sporting events, still others hang out at bars or dine at expensive restaurants. If I was to tear the entire thing down and throw everything into the trash tomorrow, it would equal about $15 per day for the days I have spent.

I do wish some posters are not so parochial and would not mind other suggestions, but such is life. Rather than wasting time on them, I have a book to read - "Lighting Up Profits." It's about how supplemental lighting and CO2 can help raise better plants in a controlled environment. I can only learn something by reading it!

Mike

Share your knowledge. In my next life I hope to have a greenhouse. I grow orchids in NY and struggle to 'chase the sun.' I carry many of the high-light plants over the dark, dreary winter with lights. Nothing sophisticated, just CFL's in octopus floor lamps. My livingroom looks like a landing field.

I wish people were more open to discussion of different growing techniques also. I wish they were friendlier. I rarely come here, but now find it entertaining. I'm usually over at Orchids although I do grow some dirt houseplants and outdoor containers. Have large outdoor flowerbeds and have planted every bush and tree on my property. I compost everything and have turned this hard, clay soil into gold. I love all of it.

My primitive light set-up over winter:

{{gwi:2719}}

{{gwi:2720}}

{{gwi:2721}}

{{gwi:2722}}

Jane

Amazing is an understatement pat, magnificent!

What are they growing in? I would love to get an orchard to do that...

Mike..:-)

Thanks!

Mike they are not hard to bloom if you have enough light. They are potted in various mixes depending on the type of orchid. Some are in bark, sphag, charcoal, lava rock. The mix depends on the needs of the plant. Be aware, Orchids are addictive.

Thanks again,
Jane

Pretty flowers, Jane!
I like your fireplace particularly.

Josh

Jane , what the heck, your place from just the picture you posted looks like it's a nice one..I too like the fireplace!!

Thanks...I almost buy an orchard everytime I pass them at homedepot..lol..Then I look at the price..lol

Do they really take forvever to re-flower? that is another thing that holds me back..

Mike

Jane,

Your plants look happy and happy plants are always the best! I wish I had more room to grow plants in my living room - maybe this fall I'll make room. Would love to have a banana, lemon and pineapple tree.

Collected some rain water that has melted a bit (I have a garbage can as a collector) and stuck it in the GH so it could warm up, as well as allow me to add some ferts to it and adjust the pH as I use it for the eight plants in hydro. Checked some other plants and the past couple of days have been great - hordes of blooms forming on a group of 16 plants. I counted 18 on one plant alone. One tomato is 35 percent ripe - it probably won't be a MLK Day mater but awfully close.

My seedlings are getting close to being ready for their home for the next few months. They are big enough now as far as height and foliage, but I don't think they have developed the root ball I prefer. My goal was Feb. 1, so there is not a good reason to rush them.

Mike

I wish I had that many blooms on my greenhouse plants. Using a 41-year-old greenhouse built for plant labs is definitely a challenge. Of course, you have an advantage with your silt + leaves soil; me - I've used bagged potting mixes for years, up until now, that is. One tomato survived the winter so far (no working heaters), a variety meant for heat (BHN 444) and actually produced one fruit. My biggest problem is the lack of adequate lighting and no idea whether bio-rhythms are important for plants, so I don't keep the fluorescent lights on 24/7.

Tomato plants need a bit of sleep, I read at least four hours a day once they get to fruiting stage. Some toms will set fruit at 52-55 degrees, but probably not yours. (Siletz and Legend are two that come to mind.)

Your plants will need about 14 or more mols of light a day to produce much fruit. If you have a light meter, it's pretty easy to figure out how much they are getting.

If it reads light in lux, divide the lux by 10.76, if it measures in foot candles, even better - no need to divide by anything.

Multiply your reading (in FC) by .000718 and multiply that by the number of hours of light at that intensity you get.

To figure out how much useful light your fluros provide, determine the lux/foot candles and multiply it by .000524 times the number of hours they are on. As long as you can get to the 14-15 mols/day total, you should get a few tomatoes. Real good results happen when you get to 21-22 mols/day!

Mike

____. You wouldn't mind telling me what your source is, i.e. a book or article, so I can go read it? Not doubting your sources, just need to know how you came up with these numbers. (Darn, where's a good plant biologist when you need one?)

The book is called "Lighting Up Profits" and it is edited by Paul Fisher and Eric Runkle. If you Google Daily Light Integral Greenhouse, you can also probably see similar data. The book, with shipping, cost $34 - not cheap but well worth it to someone trying to grow tomatoes in a GH, especially to sell.

I have a couple papers posted on my site, this one may help:
http://www.valleycat.net/garden/moleperdayneeded.pdf

Another one is:
http://www.valleycat.net/garden/lightintensity.pdf

Geeky stuff, but I love it!

Mike

I use the lights during Jan & Feb when outside light is so dim. My living-room windows face SW but in winter the angle of the sun favors south. With so many grey, dark winter days I need the lights to allow the high-light orchids to finish maturing their newest growths or I won't get flowers in Spring or Fall.

There are many orchids which will flower with good, bright windows but the Cattleya's need as much sun as possible. Surprisingly the CFL's give them enough to pull them through the two months. I don't want growth to stop. It slows but speeds up again as the sun angle and days lengthen. I run them about 16-18 hrs.

Mike, some orchids flower on and off all year. Many flower once a year but their flowers can last for months. The orchids you see in Home Depot are usually Phalaenopsis (moth orchid) and are easy to grow and bloom. Their flowers can last over a year. They grow and bloom under normal, bright light and like to be kept a bit damp so can be grown in sphagnam and some bark. The easiest orchid and very beautiful.

This Phal sits on our black piano and flowers from Dec. until July (because I cut the flower spike off). It would still be flowering if I let it.

{{gwi:2723}}

Jane

Thanks to having had so many orchids myself at one time, I learned the value of bagged orchid soil to which I add 1/2 part perlite, which is one of the mixes I use on almost everything now, if not bonsai or cacti soil with perlite. Love it. No more pics of orchids, Jane, I do not want to grow them again. No room.
Pat

My test has started. Six containers, full of my own mix, none "connected with the earth" (they are sitting on a wooden floor, upstairs, under a 400 Watt HPS lamp.

Two each of First Prize and Better Boy and one apiece of Goliath and Celebrity.

I'll post the types of ferts and nuits I use as well as any pesticides. I do intend to use a home made CO2 generator once the plants get a few leaves and will keep - very closely - the production of the plants and post results.

Mike

An update of tomatoes in my GH. It's been a very dreary winter - I could count the number of hours of good sunlight per week on one hand. Thus, the plants are quite leggy, even though I water very infrequently and try to keep the temps down in the 50-75 range.

The plants in the middle two rows:

{{gwi:2724}}

A Florida 91 VFF hybrid. I counted at least 18 blooms on this plant and mo-re forming.

{{gwi:2725}}

Another plant, same variety. The fru-it, when mature are suppose to be about 10 ounces.

{{gwi:2726}}

If these taste good, I will be growing mo-re of them this summer!

Mike

Sorry about the hyphens but I don't want the forum soft-ware to add a link to a site I may not condone.

Fantastic!!!!!

Looking good Mike..

Thanks for sharing...You had better take some fruit pictures and share..Yummy

Mike

Mike,

I'll be an A/R geek about this! The goal is to keep records of the pounds of tomatoes from each variety and how many plants they came from. A possible side benefit - I have a couple other plants growing upstairs that should have fruit starting in a couple of weeks. There is an opportunity for me to stage a plant sale at an event the first Saturday in May, about a week before the Frost Free date. Last year, I was the only person sel-ling plants and did pretty good for a 4-hour sale. If these plants will produce for two months, I can take samples to the sale. People buy "Beefsteak" or whatever because they recall them, but if they see a ripe, red Florida 91 or Better Boy and can actually taste it, I figure I will sell a lot more plants!

Mike

Amazing...I too would buy fresh tomatoes from you if I could get them that early...Amazing man..:-)

Nothing better than FRESH plucked tomatoe...That is all I will ever eat..Never store bought..

Mike..:-)

An update to an old thread...

Despite the 75 day drought of sunlight, weird temps and being distracted by growing seedlings to sell, I went to my GH today to turn the heat on. It's been a couple of weeks, ok, probably three weeks, since I gave them water. But in doing so, I noticed close to a dozen, maybe more toms that are in various stages of redness - read, ripeness.

Not only that, but I have hundreds more of blooms, baby toms and mid-size ones growing.

I still promise to post pics of the root ball but in at least this case, my mix has worked a charm.

YMMV,

Mike

Not the root ball, but I don't eat most roots, especially those from tomatoes!

This is from an ITC-06-313 plant:
{{gwi:2727}}

So is this one, but not the same plant:
{{gwi:2728}}

It was in the mid-90s today inside. I had a small mater that had fallen off a plant sitting on a board. It was quite warm, like one growing outdoors on a bright sunny day in August. Popped it in my mouth. Nirvana!

Mike

Nice pics Mike! Looks like you know what your doing :~)

Wow, incredible. Great growing!

Jane

A question, dozens of posts ago, was would if I will post pictures of the roots. Thanks to temps that have reached 130 in the GH for a bunch of days, but a rain today that cooled things off enough to allow me to dig out the containers (7-gallon pots, buried in dirt), I brought some out. I promised I would post pictures of the root ball and here are a couple. The plants that grew in them were quite large; the first one is a Florida 91, the second a Cabernet. But as you will see - the plants did not become root bound. Nor did the potting mix become hard - all I had to do was to hit the top of the ball with the palm of my hand and it broke into pieces.

As an aside - I post this because some of you tried to beat up on my methods. Perhaps because I didn't follow the gritty mix formula, perhaps because people are so addicted to one method they refuse to consider alternatives.

I'll be doing this again this fall. Will be transplanting seedlings by the end of this month and keep the plants outside until temps cool, the GH still gets up to 130 and the hottest part of summer isn't here yet. I will change the mix a bit - use last year's mix, but add some really great compost and aged (10-years-old) horse manure.

For better or worse, here's the images:
{{gwi:2729}}

{{gwi:2730}}

{{gwi:2731}}

I rest my case!

Mike

FWIW - I've been pretty quiet on this thread, even in view of the hard hits I took upthread, but I have to say you probably shouldn't be so hasty in taking for granted that everyone shares enthusiasm equal to your own re the root pictures. Though you may not realize it, the pictures actually show a very sickly root mass and a compacted soil. If I had a case to make, I could assuredly rest it now, based on your own pictures. I'm not grinding an axe - not sour grapes - just telling you how it is. I've torn apart thousands of root balls at repot time, and not one has ever looked as anemic as those/that in the pictures. It may not be sugar coated, but it IS the unbiased truth.

Bump your own thread again in OCT & I'll take a few pictures of the root masses of plants I grow in well-aerated soils that are destined for the compost pile (summer display containers) so you can decide for yourself. I promise you'll see a very stark difference and perhaps even gain an appreciation for what people were trying to share with you upthread.

Of course, if you're pleased with your results, that's all that's important.

Al

Al,

The picture doesn't look great but two things to keep in mind: it has been over eight weeks since the plants were watered and they have been dead for a month. Plus temps have been as high as 130 and usually over 120 almost every day in the past month.

The dirt pictured came from containers in which only the back of them and a small part of the front was buried. It was not hard and broke apart easily. The last time I tried a container upstairs, I had to use a hammer to break it up!

Containers that were completely buried had soil that was more loose and fell apart when I tipped them on their side.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I just showed the dirt because someone had asked that I post a picture after finished. My main concern was raising healthy plants, which I did. I would have had baskets of toms had we not went dark for about six weeks. I counted fourteen days at one stretch and the most sunlight I received was two hours - and that was rare! Then, once the sun returned they were doing great - the plants were full of blossoms. Even started getting ripe toms and dozens of baby fruits formed. Then it warmed up and even though I kept the GH open and a fan blowing air out, it still got above 100 almost every day, and then got hotter! The toms never completely ripened. :-(

It was a learning experience - you need sun and moderate temps both. That's why I am starting plants now - they should be close to flowering in late September when the temps cool off and I can move them into the GH. Come the end of December, I'll move my operation upstairs and grow hydroponically

The original post was: "So I've looked at a lot of threads concerning the proper potting mix for containers (really want to try out Al's mix) but have a problem. I plant a lot in a university greenhouse that's a long way from home (14 miles), and can't go to water the pots every day during summer. What potting mix would you recommend that is soil-less but retains enough water for a plant for at least two days? I grow mostly vegetables."

That's why I suggested burying the containers. I never had to water more than once every two weeks and grew great plants - just at the wrong time!

Mike

Mike,
thanks for posting the follow-up pics. You're a brave soul! ;)
I'm convinced that there's a happy medium out there for you - bark-based, with a few additives.

Josh