Thanks, Jeri. I didn't know they would become Africanized if in the wild. I don't think I have that problem now.

I decided not to post my 23:12, because I was afraid it might make the person I was responding to angry although I didn't intend to provoke and hope it won't, but it took anyway.

Aliska you are clearly a sweet, sensitive woman with a bright and inquiring mind. Certainly not a provoker. I enjoy your long posts although i do sometimes have trouble keeping up :)

I wasn't familiar with the names of the products in the article that Jeri posted, and was reading along, thinking "this is a chemical that FARMERS use." Then, uh-oh, the article says that they are from Bayer, and the chemical is imadicloprid, which is the active ingredient in Merit and other products. Oops. I bought some recently and still have it in my car, trying to decide if I'll use it or not.

Everybody has wanted to believe imadicloprid was safe to use if you sprayed when bees aren't around, but if it's systemic, then of course it shows up in pollen.

I'm taking my Merit back.
Anita

Conserve is supposed to be safer than many others - you can tell because it is so expensive! LOL (At least I used to think it was safer.)

This is the first year I have used none. As I look for roses for a no spray garden, I need to strongly consider those that are not white, or at least realize that they will get thrips. Thrips are the worst here.

I have also read that the bee scare is a lot of hype, and it came from some bee keepers, but is not really a problem. This was on threads that blamed cell phones. I could agree with that if I were to find some bees in my garden, but we are really lacking in honey bees so I think there is a problem.

The other day the Termite guy came to check for termites, and I asked him if the city still sprayed Malathion for mosquitoes. He said they had stopped spraying that product. It is not considered very dangerous.

Sammy

If you're moved to use a garden chemical, do just this one thing before you do.
Look up the active ingredients in it, and find out for yourself what side-
effects (if any) they are likely to have.
DON'T take someone's word for it. They may not have done their own due diligence.
GOOGLE is a wonderful tool. Use it.

As to CONSERVE, specifically, you'll find the labeling information, including
the listed environmental hazards, at the link below.

Make your own decisions.
Just be sure they are INFORMED decisions.

Jeri

Here is a link that might be useful: CONSERVE label information

mauirose, i do sometimes have trouble keeping up :)

Thanks for the kind words, mauirose. Believe it or not, I have trouble keeping up with a lot, too, sometimes read every single post in a particular thread, sometimes read long ones by others because something they said really grabs me at the moment, and sometimes I skip over them but not because what the poster(s) said isn't worth reading whether I'm familiar with them or not. Nobody can possibly keep up with it all.

cemeteryrose mentioned imadicloprid, and I had done my homework and decided to use it anyway, one of two bottle sprays I've ever used until this year. Wow, I should have read more. Granted this is a beekeeper, and I read elsewhere that what I used contains 0.012% of that, if that and Gaucho are fairly new compared to pesticides that have been used on crops & gardens for years, it seems too much for coincidence, eh?

Guess this is one I will have to reconsider, have my receipt, may take the x-tra unopened bottle back, don't know diddley if that percentage can be deadly but doesn't take rocket science to know that the tiniest amount of certain things are very toxic and deadly to humans.

So I'm going to have to reread all of this one and see if there is something else that is less toxic and more proven.

Oh I'll talk about something else important to me another time.

Here is a link that might be useful: Eric Lane Apiaries Imidacloprid Warning also mentions Gaucho

My nephew, who's a beekeeper, was asked about the question of cell phones being harmful
to bees.

He said he didn't know for sure, but that he personally does not permit his bees
to use cell phones.
:-)

Jeri

We had a honey bee hive once between the shingles and inside wall of a screen porch. I was determined NOT to call an exterminator (we had tried that several years before, and they killed all of the bees, but 3 years later another swarm moved into the same place - I noticed because they cleaned house when moving in, and suddenly the ground below the area was covered with old mummified bee corpses! Anyway, I looked in the yellow pages, and found a bee person who came and took away the queen bee and all of the other bees followed, and took the honey (a huge amount - the cones filled an area about 8 feet by 2 feet by 6 inches) and bees as payment! He gave me some of the honey, and it was ambrosia. He said that the reason that they came back was because the exterminators killed the bees, but left the honey, and the new bees smelled it. He said he could sell the bee swarm, or whatever you call it when it is not in a hive. No problem with "aficanize" - these beees were really mellow. Anyway, I this is worth a try if they establish a hive in your building.

Jeri, LOL. I needed a good laugh. I had written but self-censored my comments on cellphones and bees then went OT on non-germane aspects of that last night.

Yes, it used to be quite common to do that.
But most beekeepers these days are very particular about their queens.
It's the africanized bee problem, for the most part I think.
I inquired about this recently, because a wild hive has established itself on
our neighbor's property, about 3 ft. from our property line.
He won't do anything about them, so I hope if they DO africanize,
they bite HIM.

Jeri

Everyone can make their choice, but I chose to not spray. We have lots of honeybees in our clover in the lawn, but this is a rural area.

It is also happening to bats. This might be of interest.

Here is a link that might be useful: Bat deaths

I do not have a shortage of bees.
Honey bees, bumble bees, wasps... and after installing a pond this year I have what appears to be mud-dauber-wasps...
Very creepy looking, however found out they feast on spiders and that made me VERY happy.
My deadheading has to be done by 8:00 AM-ish due to the honey bees taking over my rose garden,
I figure they have a job to do so I get out of their way :o)
I do use organic methods 1st... however will use chemicals when all other methods fail.
I do try to make sure the ingredients are not harmful to bees.
Used to use neem oil, read it was not safe for bees so quit using it.
Chemicals I have used this year have not yet appeared to slow down my bee population.
Here are a couple of busy little bees on what I think is Morden Centennial:

{{gwi:293409}}
Lioness

Well I'm sorry to report that I found a dead bumblbee on the Pat Austin bloom I had sprayed which hadn't been bothered by beetles until this past couple of weeks. I picked the bloom off with the bee still alive and on it and should have drowned the poor thing, made me sick. One dead bee does not a scientific study make, how many does it take to convince me that it is definitely the imadicloprid ingredient? If I ever feel I must use it again, with EXTREME hesitation, I will have to cut off the blooms afterwards because it does have residual effects, 48 hours and probably more since I did it and rain in between.

Now the implications, links and far-reaching effects are shocking, won't bother you with the rest of my thoughts but the ultimate scope of it for us all due to chain reaction effects not encouraging. Just because most people don't have them and are blissfully unaware of the consequences, doesn't mean they won't be in some way in the future.

I got my wakeup call plus I haven't noticed any honeybees this year, much I attribute to land development, expansion and urban sprawl going on here, don't know if there are any hives or beekeepers in the area. At least my conscience is clear on that because this is the first time I've sprayed ever although my son has very occasionally treated the lawn. Most people around here treat their lawns and take great pride in them, and it's the affluent who are doing it. Parts of town it's lucky if they get mowed for grass and weeds. Now the question is are those chemical controls safe for bees; of course pets and people?

When the young man I had to get rid of cockroaches and fleas years ago got sick, I and he strongly suspected it was the chemicals he was using in his job, inside and out. One local couple who grew plants under lights in their basement and sprayed with something in those confined conditions, both got sick and died from aplastic anemia years ago. Most people will have forgotten that. I didn't.

Even if you don't have them now on your roses, we are all going to be affected one way or another if we don't get some safer controls and prevent the destruction of bees. People just don't understand how important bees are as pollinators, don't want to imagine what could happen if more disappear. They do recover eventually, but if the culprit(s) aren't isolated and remedied, it will just happen again. It would also be nice to know why it hasn't happened in some colonies and parts of the country.

Aliska, it may be irrelevant, but Imidicloprid is also the active ingredient in
Bayer Advantage For Fleas (for dogs and cats).

It IS an effective control for fleas.
But it is also contraindicated for "individuals prone to seizure disorder."
This is because it is known to trigger seizures in susceptible individuals.
Of course, I don't know how you could know that your pet is subject to seizure disorder
until it seizures.
And having had a seizuring dog, I can guarantee you that it's not something you want
to see.

Jeri

Jeri, I can't thank you for it enough. I think you are also saying people prone to them, too, (I'm not but my daughter is), and we all love cats. I have used it in the past but keeping them inside, haven't had to use it for many years now. Now they are all gone but took in one shorthair stray so have to be on the lookout for that.

Sadly, I have seen a seizure in a cat I had. It was part of a litter here, and Mama Kitty would bring the kittens out in her mouth at a certain point and set it right on the floor by the fridge. I accidentally stepped on two (maybe it was my son with one, killed one, and severely injured the other, don't need to tell you how bad I felt. I put the kitten in a flannel-lined basket on the dr table, fed with eyedropper or something, it languished for 3 or 4 days & got better appeared normal, then started having seizures on a regular basis. I kept him anyway, but one summer I put them all in the garage with vented windows, and he couldn't jump up and escape the fleas like the others, all got them bad. So I had to treat them with the dip stuff. That didn't hurt him but did affect one other one for a short while; she lived to be 21 and died in Aug 2005. He kept getting worse and would bite if you got near while he was having one but was otherwise very sweet and docile. My son took some to the shelter, and I'm sure they would have euthanized him, don't want to remember that. I tried not to have many cats after that. Funny, I always had a bad feeling about Advantage, but liked it because the cats then took care of the fleas in the carpets, oh what I went through with those in the summer, die in winter here.

I will alert my family about Advantage, especially the one who takes medication for seizures (accident w/brain injury) who is watching my granddaughter's two cats who treats hers with Advantage. She has enough problems as it is and hasn't had a seizure for a long time but it can always happen again.

I called the ext ofc and found out, yes, our honeybees have disappeared. Sad. I shared what I shared here with her about the spraying, this is so new, they don't know around here about this latest and imadicloprid, she doesn't spray. She told me more about milky spore, had no roses, was letting the JB's go, bad in her crab tree, they start at the top so will watch for telltale signs on my huge one, got my birches bad this year can't spray it, and will apply milky spore herself.

Now I gotta eat and do the beetle thing, put it off today.

I honestly don't know whether imidicloprid on a pet would affect a human in
contact with it. Perhaps not.
I believe the chemical binds itself to the fatty layer under the skin.
So, maybe, once it had dried off, it might not be a problem?

AFAIK, there is no such caution with regard to Frontline.
I believe it to be a bit less effective, but we used it on our old seizuring dog, and
had no problems.

(Orthene anywhere near his vicinity did send him off into seizure.)

Jeri

I quit spraying with Neem because I noticed that there were dead bumblebees in my garden after I sprayed, later I read that it is a specific bee-i-cide, I forget the Latin word for it.

Thanks Jeri, you are amazingly informative.
Lux.

I'm sure sorry about your dog, and like you did put the info out there and let people decide. You are correct, imidacloprid is the ingredient in Advantage, net chatter and my inclination would be something from the vet; however with my daughter, why take a chance? I didn't even want to put the stuff on my cat, and my other daughter did wearing latex gloves. I don't want to frighten her, but will do some more asking questions . . .she's the one with the baby, at least my precautions weren't overreacting. Read that the Hartz product was taken off the market; that was the one most implicated in the seizures. I hadn't heard of Frontline until today. Do you buy it off the shelf?

OK, now the bees. Again. This is serious, and I'm going to keep up on it. Will ask more questions, see if my daughter will ask people at the Farmer's market if they spray and if so what, more questions will ask later on veggies.

What could be happening here in eastern Iowa/western Illinois to cause the CCD or whatever is the cause of the decline of our honeybees? What chemicals are our farmers using that may be contributors? What chemicals are businesses/public parks/lawn care using? The public? These questions demand answers. I don't expect you to know, but you might have suspicions. Our primary crops are corn, soybeans, hay, very few grapes, but quite a bit of truck gardening of veggies; sweet potatoes, squash and melons. No particular fruit production but a few apple orchards, strawberries, a few grow raspberries. Some people have peaches and plums, cherries probably pretty rare now. May have missed some. Don't know how the GM corn could play into it and what other GM is out there, not that it is necessarily all bad; I just would rather not we do it but not using it could mean more use of pesticides.

If you're still with us, cognizant of the hazards to honeybees, still have them but say you do use chemicals, which ones do you use? If I must use some, that could help get me on the right track. Any repeat bloom roses that don't need spraying because if they'll grow in your zone, they'll surely grow in mine?

a specific bee-i-cide, I forget the Latin word for it.

*** I sorta like "bee-i-cide," myself. :-)
It's pretty descriptive.

Aliska, Frontline spray, you have to buy from a vet. (But you can sometimes
find it on line, cheaper than vets sell it.

There is a "spot" product, I THINK, which is OTC. And I'm only familiar with
stuff for use on dogs. We have no kitties here, at present.

Jeri

Thanks, jeri, vets lately have sold me the Advantage (bought some just to have on hand, never had to use it). I will ask about Frontline.

The good news is this cat is a shorthair (they're not immune but less susceptible, neighbor doesn't like all the others have a dog but lots around).

The bad news is that he goes outside, won't have a dog again since I gave mine up, don't need the hassle and now responsible pet owners regularly should take them to the vet for checkups/shots/treatment which costs have skyrocketed & etc.

When they get a foothold, they're in the house in certain spots and outside in the yard and my neighbor's yard, jump all over me, bit my daughter (this is way back), rarely bit me, won't tell all I went through with them.

One reason I never want to live in an apt & similar again esp govt housing for seniors is you have to put up with spraying inside whether you want/need it or not, prob can't opt out.

Frontline has Fipronil as an active ingredient and I have seen some items on the web that suggest it is toxic to bees and a carcinogen. I will do some further research on it.

Interesting!
I will also do some looking.

I'm not too worried about bees with it, however, since I am putting it on dogs,
not plants.

Jeri

I did some more looking myself. Back to imidacloprid, bees, & ag. I've said so much here, but this is one that really got me wanting to know more and relevant to my life other than just roses.

First I went back and read the article in its entirety and saved it. It has a possible answer to one of my questions right here:

Germany followed suit this year, and its agricultural research institute said it concluded that the poisoning of the bees was because of the rub-off of the pesticide clothianidin (that's Pancho) from corn seeds.

We use seeds like that at least for soybeans and have done it for years. I will see if, what they are treated with now, why (the Pancho is a systemic, spills over to the pollen), where we buy them, and what pesticides we use.

An article in the Chicago Tribune was nonspecific, but mentioned disappearance in a small town area less than 30 miles from me. Another Iowa farmer has suffered no losses and ships his bees to CA for the winter to pollinate crops. They would undoubtedly use treated seeds and pesticides near his bees in IA, he lives in Perry right near Des Moines and Ames nearly 180 mi from me. Both would have JB's; most of IA doesn't yet, doubt if it is related to that. So nothing is really clear here except pesticides are doubtless at least one factor in some way.

Google came up with this, but the quote it links to has disappeared from that page:

was patented in 1985 by Bayer and. was first marketed in 1991. ...

They need farms to host colonies on, just takes a corner of a pasture, not necessarily have to manage them.

Sevin kills bees. I won't be spraying my smaller trees with that now but was thinking about it. My gf near St. Louis has used it every year for her trees.

I asked a farmer what the cropduster's spray and he said they use Hondo. Said the JBs eat the corn silks, which keep the corn from pollinating. Hondo kills the JBs.

I sure hope folks in the AG industry are working hard to find something to kill off the JBs; they are a very real threat to our food crops. If we don't have corn, we can't feed livestock, produce ethanol, etc.

Hello, I wanted to say that I was flabbergasted when I found out that Advantage had imidacloprid. My vet recently prescribed Comfortis for flea control on my dogs. It is basically spinosad, which I know is an organic control. We've been using it for 3 months here at the height of fleas season at the beach, and it works better than Frontline or Advantage ever did. It is a pill and is fairly expensive, but overall cheaper I think than the Frontline and Advantage which didn't work well and the fleas laughed at anyway. And being an organic pesticide, I think it is better for our pets.

I am having a terrible problem with spider mites this year as well as powdery mildew. Specifically my two Lamarques planted last year on an arbor. They look terrible, at least the foliage does...sparse, chewed, curled up. But I absolutely don't want to spray anything as we have lots of bees this year (I got stung last weekend)and I try to be organic. So I am spraying jets of water in the mornings, although it doesn't seem to be doing that much good.

Anyway, I wanted to let you all know about the Comfortis if any of you are concerned about the use of imidaclopropid on your pets.

I didn't read every post above. Let me just tell you about the missing bees in Norwalk Ct. I rented a house on the water for 5 years. The first year we were freaked out by some huge bees that lived under the siding on the east side (and the water side). We had the landlord spray. It did nothing. The cool thing was my husband would stand in front on the bees and try to photograph them from a distance of 1-2 inches. They were carpenter bees. Very cool. The next 4 years we all lived in harmony. We moved next door last Oct. The bees also always lived in the wooden rail fence between the two houses. They came out in strength this spring. Always curious about what I was watering or weeding but keeping a 12 inch distance. I'm not quite sure what the date was when one day I realized there were NO bees. My tomatoes weren't pollinated-.No tomatoes!!!! CRAP. But-no nosey bee friends. My whole garden experience has never had NO bees. The only bee type things we have are yellow jackets. OH JOY . I don't know why.

Oh gee -- that would be sad.
It's one of those "Silent Spring" moments, isn't it?

The other day I was out giving some of the roses a brisk morning hose-wash,
and when I turned the hose on Secret Garden Musk Climber, the busy bees all
flew quickly in the air. Not a swarm, but lots of bees. :-)

We have so many single roses, and the bees love them so, we'll be in real trouble
if that hive next door africanizes.

Jeri

Jeri, what would you think about something like this? Safer 3-in-1 Garden Spray RTU, see useful link for ingredients, supposed to be organic, googled and see it kills a variety of insects but *supposed* not to kill ladybugs and bees, but hard to take one "testimony" to make such a choice. Not to be confused w/concentrate Safer 3-in-1 which is mainly neem oil; people haven't had good results w/that on JB's.

ponce418 way near the bottom of this thread claims good luck with it fighting JB's & other probs like I've been having, will continue to replace with ones that have a better track record wrt nuisances.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/roses/msg071011285226.html?46

Tried to find out the proportions of a home brew in an article about a horror story concerning JB's about 100 mi from me, no response from poster via private email and phone call to person who was beseiged (can understand why not). Ingredients of that were presumably water, lemon juice, vinegar and liquid dish detergent, don't expect your opinion on the beetles, but your expertise in chemicals.

With the Safer which I don't know if I can find locally, it's 24 oz ready-to-use which might not go far with all my roses.

Here is a link that might be useful: Safer 3-in-1 Garden Spray ingredients listed

Remember that I'm nothing APPROACHING a chemist.
It looks to me to be as benign as anything can be, and still hope to kill something.

OTOH, what are you going to spray for?
It apparently will affect ladybug larvae, but has little impact on adult ladybugs.
It kills aphids, but water can do that.

Since it doesn't do much to hard-shelled insects, I guess it won't affect JB's???
But it might affect spider mites?

Jeri

Here is a link that might be useful: INFO: Potassium Salts Of Fatty Acids

Jeri, I know you're not a chemist or expert in everything, you & one other who recommends traps, +a few others, impress me with their knowledge and experience plus research you have done. You just don't grab things off the shelf and think it is going to solve problem(s), some learned the hard way. I have avoided a few things in life in about anything from others' learning the hard way and take it to heart.

Thanks for that link, sounds pretty benign compared to other nastier stuff. I am beginning to recognize various insect damage but still at novice 101 and don't notice aphids, if present, soon enough. Good article, don't care to kill ladybug larvae either.

Poster claims it she had good luck w/Safer wrt JB's. From the link wouldn't expect it to, and more feedback from others who have used it would be better. Here's the main thrust of what she said:

"I took a chance on a product called Safer 3-in-1 spray this year. I started using it when, strangely enough, the JB's went after my hibiscus before anything else.

"And so far, so good. Haven't had any JB damage to my rose bushes. The JB's haven't done any more damage to my other perennials (including the hibisicus) as well."

I guess I'm assuming she is not talking about the one w/neem oil but can't be sure now. You know which product I'm talking about and just guessed was the one she used.

I'm putting that product on hold for now, forget about gophers for now, I've got plenty else to deal with. No, I wouldn't expect it to do a thing w/hard-shelled insects from what I read at your link. Spider mites & thrips I think I do have and would be effective on others things plaguing me, don't know about BS.

So I sit here w/a bottle of Orthonex I haven't tried (& Roundup, am going to have to use that in some areas, no screaming please, I'll be careful), broad spectrum, look for the easiest way out first, pre-mixed, etc. Mine isn't, make that aren't. Probably will find something negative about that. Bottom line: I don't want to kill/harm bees, butterflies, ladybugs, birds, pets & other beneficial insects, know I have leafhoppers, hard to catch them in action. I do want rid of yellow jackets, don't care if they are pollinators, don't want them around, seem to have moved in when HB's left, new to me and I knew lots of bugs from my hs years but not wrt gardening.

Today I got a so so shot of a Tiger Swallowtail, it spooks and flies away before I can grab my camera and line up a good shot. Hope it comes back for another chance, a real treat to see one.

As always, thanks for helping me.

Just be careful with that Roundup. You did say Roundup?
That won't do in bugs, but it's perilously easy to kill your own roses with it.

Jeri

Glad you posted this, Jeri.
When we first moved into our new home, I used to see lots of bumble bees.
I really enjoyed watching them.
But now it's been 10 YEARS since I've seen one.
Thats very sad.

On a positive note though, when we moved in here there were billions of fire ants on the property for the first several years.
This year, they've not been a problem at all, and I've not treated for them.
Perhaps a decade of organic gardening and diversity of plants is finally paying off? Knock on wood.

Randy

Thanks for the article. I neeed to read that so that I can continue to tell myself that it's important to stay on the organic path. Sometimes, it's so tempting to just spray the darn insects; however, doing so starts a chain reaction that affects not just the insects and other wildlife but us who live and work in the garden. I did just this in a fit of madness this spring; I have resolved not to do it again.

I shudder to think what kinds of diseases we may contract in the future from all the chemicals that we spray in our gardens and into our food sources. If imidacloprid stays in the plant and affects bees adversely, who is to say that it will not accumulate in our bodies as we consume the food or inhale the poison? After all, these poisons are never tested thoroughly, and even if they were, the results are never shared with the public as the article indicated. No rose is worth risking our lives and the future of our children.

"Just be careful with that Roundup. You did say Roundup?"

Yes, and like the rest of it, am dreading starting w/that. I was going to put shields around everything close and not use a wide spray. Saw my neighbor using it again, got real close w/the spray nozzle and fine stream this time. He damaged a bunch of my stuff year B4 last w/drift, still sick about losing my beautiful violets. He did it again this year, they are history, never be able to have them again. I know it sounds so silly to others, but they brightened my life and lined a narrow pathway between our two houses with his ugly, tall, baffle-type fence, stuff comes through that! Even the huge foliage when they were done blooming was refreshing, daughter even remarked about it, ugly there now. Most of the other violets I yank or will get RU, they are hard to pull up and get all the roots.

And I will have to paint some of it on. And guess I can't use it over where I planted tulip bulbs because they say it goes into the roots and crosses over. Either that or I will just replant the bulbs after I've gotten rid of the weeds and grass, and not use chicken wire again which made it impossible to weed until the foliage died back, and the weeds got out of control.

It's mainly Bermuda grass, but other stubborn weeds as well back by the alley, which has taken hold all over for years, didn't know how to deal with it B4. Now little by little, plan to use the RU and overseed w/fresh grass seed. Most places there won't be plants too near and will still cover any that are close, even if the wind seems quiet.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:293408}}

During lunch today with my sister, she mentioned that a bunch of bumble bees had moved into one of her bird houses. Isn't that unusual for bumbles?

I hope following this thread hasn't given me bad luck (nervous lol ensues...), but Sunday evening just after I turned off the water hose at the front of the house where I was watering a few potted plants, I was attacked by some sort of winged demon, and stung several times on the back of my neck and shoulders. Got in the house and all I could find for DH to douse me with was some apple cider vinegar. It did help the stinging, but .... I was instantaneously nauseous and weak. Probably about 15 or so stings. No respiratory effect, so I decided to stay home instead of going to the ER. I have stayed home from work on Monday and today with headaches and nausea (seems most anything can set off these migraines, since I was diagnosed with them a month ago), but I'll be back at work in the morning. Meanwhile, my knight in shining denim has slain the dragons. He found two nests of red wasps under the eave of the roof near where I had been watering, and one nest of some sort of black flying thing that looked similar, inside our front porch light fixture. Glad they are gone!

I love honey bees, and bumble bees too, hope those don't decide to take a dislike to me, too!!!

Allison

Allison - a quick FYI...I have suffered from migraines for over 40 years and finally found relief 2 years ago when my doctor prescribed Topamax, which is a preventative drug that I take twice daily. I used to get migraines so bad I was bedridden sometimes 3 times a month with nausea and vomiting. It was awful; it ruled my life. Go talk to your doctor about Topamax; it was changed my life! I've only had about 2 headaches in 2 years.

Thanks for that TerryJean. It was already recommended to me by a coworker who has been successful with it. Although I would like to give it a try, I doubt I'll be allowed to use it, because my brand of migraines is a somewhat unusual type and difficult to treat due to safely issues with bleeding and possiblility of stroke. This type is called Hemiplegic migraine, and the pre-headache aura symptoms mimick a TIA, also called a mini stroke. Believe me when I tell you that I was terrified when the first one happened! I have been a registered nurse for many years, and this type was unknown to me prior to my initial consultation with a neurologist. (That's why the docs go to school so much longer than nurses, right? So they can know a little more? )
Sorry everyone, I didn't mean to highjack this excellent thread. I am still a little shell shocked from this new diagnosis. It's always something!

Aliska,
We're not in the same zone but I wanted to mention some sprays I'm using on the off chance they might be useful to you.

To deter insects and prevent fungi I mix milk, a little unscented castile soap, Garlic Barrier, and peppermint oil and spray weekly. Per my research, milk prevents molds/mildew, a mild solution of castile soap kills softbodied insects, garlic repels bugs, and peppermint oil disorients them. So far this is very effective and I have thriving veggies, flowers, and rose bushes. The beneficial insects (bees included) are still in the garden but the ones I didn't want (cucumber beetles, squash bugs, etc.) are kept under control. JBs don't like the scent of peppermint either.

I am trying a spray from Pharm Solutions (USDA Certified Organic) that the manufacturer says kills adult JBs. It is also supposed to do everything my homemade spray does but better. Will advise on how it works for me.

An old remedy for weeds you don't want is to pour white vinegar on the roots. I use this for any morning glory, poison ivy, and thistles that show up in my garden beds. It does work. It might work on the grasses you are trying to eradicate. (you may want to check the pH and adjust for any changes afterwards...)

Hope this helps.

anita22, thanks for that, saved it. The only Castile soap I buy is in bar form, Kirk's, and a little hard to find now. Certainly wouldn't hurt to try for the JB's, my enemy #1 this summer, only because they stole time away from my other problems which last all season, season after season.

As to the grasses and weeds. Roots? Wouldn't that mean digging and exposing those? This main pest, Bermuda grass, forms a deep underground network of runners. That is why it is able to survive our winters. Vinegar is certainly cheap enough and I'm not afraid of it, if only I could spray that on the surface, assume you mean the strength out of the jug would be a little concerned about ph long term because I'd be doing a lot of it all over my property.

Other than the reservations expressed, would prefer to try the other organic tips and sure appreciate your taking the time to reply.

Aliska -- Vinegar won't harm Bermuda Grass, other than maybe scorching the top some.
I've tried that.

Jeri

Jeri, figured as much. Since you have had experience with that awful stuff, what do you do? So far I cleared an area for hosta lining my steps the hard way, digging and pulling, tearing out as many runners as possible, then covered with 6 layers of newspaper and mulched w/decaying leaves. Bought me some time.

In the flower bed that has the worst of it (new and tilled, stirs up seeds, see why people are doing lasagna planting), I used up two containers of Grass B Gon (Ortho - fluzifop act ingred), stuff isn't that expensive but with all I have yet, would get to be pretty high. Put newspapers all around the border only and finally got finished mulching it, probably could have done it as soon as I had sprayed but wanted to be sure. It works great though! It does take awhile, like up to 2 weeks.

Whatever impact GBG has on the environment, I don't think should be too awful, compared to the other nasty stuff we've been discussing.

I just read the thread about netting for JB's. May just try that next year.

Oh, I'm going to lose one of those Reine des Violettes, will see if I can get credit, and will see if I can get the other one through the winter, got in ground, chlorotic symptoms disappeared for now, picked off more BS leaves, looks pretty good but vulnerable still, mulched well and will winter protect that baby. I got it in a good spot, sunny but part shade, blooms are dark, will love that one if it matures and thrives.

We mow it, and pull it out, and mulch more and more heavily, and when an area gets
too bad, we resort to Grass be Gone.
"Floozieflop." -G-
No, we don't like using it, but sometimes it is necessary.
It helps.
We have absolutely no expectation of ever eradicating it.
It was here before we were, and will be here after we are gone to our reward.

If your conditions are alkaline, you will continue to fight chlorosis with Reine
des Violettes.
Last year, I gave Excellenz von Schubert a dose of soil sulfur, in the spring,
and to my complete surprise, it's been reasonably good ever since.

Jeri

Pull and mulch. Won't work where it has gotten into areas that should be lawn. Notice you didn't mention the R word :-). Floozieflop, good one :-). I would have expected my soil to be alkaline, but think it tends to acidic, too many separate areas to test ph unless there is an easy kit. Will try to remember the soil sulfur, and look B4 I leap into anything. Inclination would be to use the easy way out. Miracid, as was suggested by my rose club guy for my new rhodies if they start to look off. Prob not a good idea for whatever reason. Could try to mulch w/peat covered by more decaying leaves which is what I'm using there, will try to mulch more of mine into the lawn and grab the neighbor's oak leaves, might ask even, so I can be more open about dragging the bags across the street.

So better resign myself that BG will never be completely eradicated either, guess it doesn't surprise me, prospect sure doesn't thrill me but better to face reality. Will try not to give up in the face of many discouragements.

Glad you spotted that article and started this thread no matter who took it where. Have learned much and using the info elsewhere, going back to source article and keeping GW & posters out of it.

I was watching the new yesterday morning and there was a piece on home forclosures in Florida and the increase of hives. This got me thinking. When there are a lot of forclosures, besides having more places to make a hive undisturbed, there is a lot less chemical spraying going on because there are no home owners and lawn services. Plus I'm going to venture a guess that others living in these areas are spending less money on garden services because they are strapped for cash too.
Remy

Here is a link that might be useful: Bee Forclosure Article

Remy--what a great article! Thanks for posting it. I am really enjoying this thread. Too bad there are not more people like B. K. Councell, though I would wish them a home and to be paid for their services.

That WAS in interesting piece!

It's interesting to see the way everything that happens affects a whole
circle of other things.

Changes in regulations.
"cheap" loans.
Over-building.
Forclosures.
job losses.
Abandoned animals. (Companion Animal Rescue groups are overtaxed.)
Insect life.
The food chain alters.

Nothing exists in a vacuum, does it?

Jeri

Add me for a big thank you, too, Remy. Really sad on many levels. He scoops the bees with his bare hands, wears no protection? Yikes. Hope lives improve for all in that depressed area.

Notice that not only do the bees like to move in empty buildings but also they are away from chemicals. Still when they are going out 5mi to gather honey and return, they must be exposed to some. Incredible creatures.

Interesting about the honey and bees wax candles, how they burn cleaner. Jeri is right a circle of homelessness and despair, lighting candles in prayer. All life is intertwined. That Mr. Councell (sp?) gets stung and believes the bees will take care of him. I'll just bet they will somehow in some unforeseen manner. Evidently he has no fear of them which the bees must sense. Wonder how he tracks down the queen and kills her. Fascinating stuff.