The previous part of this ongoing series, It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 9, is becoming rather long and slow to load, so we are continuing it here.

The same guidelines apply here. Anything remotely related to zinnias is fine and, as a courtesy to readers with smaller monitors, try to keep the pictures posted no wider than 986 pixels.

This a picture of one of my second generation zinnias that are coming into bloom now. A bloom on its parent was shown in Part 9 back on Fri, Apr 17, 09 at 1:08 and before that on Sat, Mar 7, 09 at 0:42 and Sat, Mar 7, 09 at 0:30 and Sat, Feb 14, 09 at 9:24.

This recombinant shows several of the traits of its ancestors, but lacks several good traits that its mother had, so it is marginally a breeder at this time. However, I am encouraged that several more sibling seedlings are budding and its mother is still forming new seeds and blooms. I will be saving and planting more seeds from the mother.

Several second generation recombinants have bloomed out as singles. That seems to be rather common for recombinants with scabiosa flowered heritage. So far, only a couple of new zinnias show promise, so it looks like the percentage of breeder quality zinnias is going to be rather low in this generation. But still, hope springs eternal, and I have a lot more second generation hybrid seedlings that are coming along and just now showing buds. I am still busy repotting seedlings and planting new seeds while preparing to move a bunch of blooming zinnias outdoors.

ZM

I know you're breeding for certain traits but I see each one as a unique beauty and truly appreciate your posts.

Your cultural techniques for "curing what ails 'em" is helpful to anyone growing Zinnia. Your busting the "nothing wet on the leaves" to keep foliage problems away was eye opening to me. If they're wet properly with something helpful (not necessarily chemical) it can reduce horrible foliage problems.

Keep em coming and thanks again.

Glad to have you here.

"Your cultural techniques for "curing what ails 'em" is helpful to anyone growing Zinnia. Your busting the "nothing wet on the leaves" to keep foliage problems away was eye opening to me."

Thanks for your kind words. I am still amazed at how many garden writers use powdery mildew as a reason for not wetting the zinnia foliage, when in fact powdery mildew spores cannot germinate in water and powdery mildew grows best when the foliage is dry. There are foliage diseases that can take advantage of wet zinnia foliage, unless it is wetted with one of the sprays that control them.

Several of my second generation hybrids this year have already come into bloom and most, as usual, are rejects. Some are borderline, like this one.

It has scabiosa hybrid heritage, but the scabiosa colored florets are absent for the most part, and instead the central petals are somewhat modified. I'll use it as a breeder and try backcrossing it to some scabiosa hybrids, including its mother, which is still blooming.

ZM

I started out planting them just for Butterflies last year but found out what a happy sight they are and have many kinds this year for both myself and the nectar lovers.

I have to keep them protected so critters don't eat them but it's worth it.

All your posts about breeding actually had me looking at my father's many African Violets and wondering what would happen if someone bred them for specific traits...which is what I assume goes on constantly with big producers anyway.

I have very low tolerance for disgusting looking foliage although the Butterflies are happy with what they can get for nectar.

The orange in last photo has visible yellow streaking which I can see thanks to your incredible photography. Beautiful!

Wow, it's been busy! I've had many distractions from gardening and zinnias lately, but they were all good ones, so I can't complain! There just aren't enough hours in a day this time of year!

I have my main garden plowed as well as other patches ready, and now have eight 40-foot rows of scabiosas and whirligigs planted as well as a flat of red scabiosas and July Bonnets indoors that have been selfed and are germinating. I watch that flat like one who's watching for a pot of water to boil!

ZM, is the pink flower posted on April 28 the result of the selfed parent or was that parent crossed with a different plant? Just wondered--the lighter shades on the flower are pretty..flower reminds me of a raspberry creamsicle with well, yellow sprinkles...

I see many new folks are speaking on this thread and that is great! Hope you all can post photos of your flowers, too! I think I can speak for everyone when I say it is so much fun to see what others are growing!!

More later....

JG

"...is the pink flower posted on April 28 the result of the selfed parent or was that parent crossed with a different plant?"

Welcome back, stranger. That pink flower came from a petal seed on a scabiosa-type flower, so it probably was a cross rather than a self. The most likely papa was:

In any case, it was a child of hybrid x hybrid crosses, so a lot of recombination was involved. So far, in this second generation this year, I haven't seen anything that got me very excited. But a lot more of them are budding out, so there are a lot of possibilities remaining. And I have a lot of second generation seeds that haven't been planted yet.

We have a bunny rabbit browsing the lawns in the neighborhood, so I am setting out some of my reject singles to see if the bunny decides to eat them. If the bunny proves to be a serious threat to my good breeder zinnias, I will have to devise bunny-proof zinnia cages. I'll probably just wrap some chicken wire around my existing re-mesh zinnia cages. That should be very doable. At least we don't have ground hogs or black flies here.

ZM

That last pink flower is really worth trying to preserve somehow through breeding. It's very pretty!

The seeds I planted outdoors are germinating nicely in the garden. I am a little disappointed with the comparative germination of my own seeds to that of the commercial sources, but I think harvesting at an early stage of maturity, drying out, then storing over the winter may be a little detrimental----although probably the best I can do considering birds will get the seeds of all uncovered flowers if I don't harvest early! These seeds weren't resulting from planned crosses, but came from the whirligig flowers I had last summer.

I had one out of six planted seeds from (the white cactus x Persian Carpet cross) germinate indoors.. The one seedling was very small, and then just died--a result of an incompatible cross? I don't know! I will be planting more "small zinnias" outdoors when it gets a little warmer.. I saved seeds from the Persian Carpets, Peruvians, Profusions, Swizzles, Aztec Sunsets and Chippendales, Red Spiders, and angustifolias that I grew together last summer. I will plant these and see if I get any unusual offspring that may have resulted randomly from these plants. It's not expected, but a rare surprise would be exciting!

We have lots of rabbits here, but they haven't bothered the zinnias at all. But I suspect it is they who ate all of the shoots of my newly planted red raspberries! A short-term fix is to sprinkled dried blood around the plants--but I've found in the past, in time they figure out it's a scam...Other gardeners have told me a small hotwire installed around the plants is very effective--just be sure you don't zap yourself!

JG

"I had one out of six planted seeds from (the white cactus x Persian Carpet cross) germinate indoors.. The one seedling was very small, and then just died--a result of an incompatible cross?"

The mere fact that the seedling germinated indicates that the cross was compatible. It may have had a fatal genetic factor, or it may have just been a weak seedling. Persian Carpet seeds are quite small for zinnias.

Arlan Ten Kley, one of the recent participants in the It can be fun to breed your own zinnias message thread over on the Dave's Garden Hybridizers open forum, has done some good research on Historic Zinnia haageana hybrid - Zinnia Darwini (it's his link, so I left it over there, where it is readily accessible). Arlan is an accomplished breeder of Japanese Morning Glories.

So far none of my crosses with Aztec Sunset has been viable, but I haven't given up on this. I think that interspecific zinnia crosses have exciting possibilities.

ZM

Here are a couple of closeups:

Do you think they are zinnias? If they are, can I dig them out and transplant them to space them better?

Thanks!

They look an awful lot like zinnias, but I don't know for sure that they are! The differences that I see from zinnia seedlings (at least the ones I have!) are:
--the first set of leaves do not have a pronounced midvein as zinnias often, but not always, do
--it seems that there is too much distance on the stem between the first pair of leaves and the second pair
--some of the stems of those seedlings seem way too dark to be zinnias--I don't believe I've ever seen stems that dark! Although, with the plants with dark flowers, this might be possible...

Don't tear them out on my comments! See what others think here, and also let them get a little bigger. Since you had zinnias there before, you can't help but think these are zinnias, too. If they were to be zinnias, I'd wait until a warm, overcast, and rainy day to carefully move each seedling, and its surrounding soil to another place.

ZM, that cross did result in a seedling, but I guess what I meant was, the offspring did not prove to be fit (be able to mature to reproductive age so that it could successfully cross with other plants). Thanks for the link to Dave's Garden!

JG

I somewhat doubt that they are zinnias, based on the slight "toothiness" of some of the first true leaves. At this stage, a lot of dicots look pretty much alike. Here is a picture that I took today of some of my hybrid zinnia seedlings:

Notice that their first true leaves have smooth edges. Zinnias resent disturbance of their root systems, and that is pretty much unavoidable when you dig one up and move it somewhere else.

Zinnias that have been growing indoors in pots can be set outside without disturbing their root systems, because they are usually root bound enough to have formed a rootball that fits snuggly in the pot and falls out of the pot intact.

But if you want to take a chance on those volunteer seedlings, you don't really have much to lose by transplanting them. If they turn out to be tree seedlings, you can always do away with them. And if they turn out to be zinnias, you are ahead of the game.

ZM

As I have mentioned, my second generation is showing a lot of single zinnia rejects due to my proclivity for using scabiosa flowered specimens in my crosses. Recombinants from scabiosa flowered parents have a high percentage of singles. This recombinant specimen is single, but shows an interesting mix of central florets.

Some of the florets are of the colored scabiosa type and some of them are conventional pollen bearers. Apparently the genetics controlling the central florets is not of the simple "on-off" type. As we get more experience growing our hybrids and observing the results, we can get an intuitive understanding of what is going on. I don't have the patience and growing space to pursue a more scientific approach toward discovering the details of zinnia genetics. Perhaps people in the academic community or the commercial breeders are doing something like that.

ZM

Have four (selfed) July Bonnet seedlings in the garden and two still in the tray. Am also hoping for more to germinate. This is the first time I've ever crossed my flowers and looked at the offspring, so no matter what I get, I'm excited! ZM, you inspire all of us with your experiments! It's interesting to look at the difference of the seed types. In July Bonnet, the seeds from the ray flowers were spade-shaped and flat. The seeds from the disc florets were like small grains of wheat in shape. Interesting, and I guess it makes sense, that while the seed leaves from the ray flowers were flat and wide, the seed leaves from the disc flowers were narrow and thick...at least, in the case of that particular flower/plant.

I had mentioned earlier that my home-raised whirligig seeds were disappointing when comparing % germination to that of the commercial seeds, but I am finding now that they are catching up with the others in % germination; they were just slower in coming up...maybe making up for that time they were not allowed to mature before storage.

ZM, HC, Dave...and everyone else here--can't wait to see what you get this summer!

JG

"This is the first time I've ever crossed my flowers and looked at the offspring, so no matter what I get, I'm excited!"

Just wait until they make buds and start to open blooms! Then the anticipation really builds. I get a lot of enjoyment out of just growing zinnias and learning how to better care for them, but the real motivation for me is seeing how my very own hybrids will look when they bloom out. That never grows old.

This a recombinant that bloomed a couple of days ago. It isn't super good, but it does have some "toothy" petals and a touch of scabiosa petal distortion.

Even though it isn't great, I will use it as a breeder to see how its genetic factors recombine with some other specimens. It has a "raggedy" look that I tend to like.

JG, please do post pictures of your July Bonnet seedlings when they bloom (or before), regardless of how they turn out. And even if they don't have that "bonnet" look, save some seeds from them, just in case the key genes were "bashful".

ZM

I too look forward to seeing everybody's flowers this year. I agree with ZM in saying that we should post pictures "..even if they don't turn out." Sometimes we learn more from the unanticipated than the expected.

I've read the commments about low germination rates of saved seed so planted my saved seed accordingly....very closely. This was seed saved from the 2006 season so I anticipated even lower germination. I must have approached 100% germination as my rows are quite densely populated now... As this saved seed was not from selected flowers, I don't expect too much worthy of selecting. The seed was segregated by individual flower though, so some valuable information will result as I learn about the Zinnias.

One question I have is this, will the plants really suffer being this close until I can see them flower to know which to thin? Will the survivors of the knife recover and grow normally after, or does a slow start impare later recovery? I'm suspecting that they will do okay, just maybe not reach full growth habit potential, as we've seen such nice flowers from JG's densely planted plots!

My plants will depend on fertilizer and other applied nutrients to perform well due to the poor sandy nature of the soil here.

Arlan

"One question I have is this, will the plants really suffer being this close until I can see them flower to know which to thin? Will the survivors of the knife recover and grow normally after, or does a slow start impare later recovery?"

The sand is not necessarily a disadvantage as long as you provide a steady diet of soluble nutrients in the water that you irrigate them with. That combination of fertilization and irrigation is sometimes called fertigation. Your sandy soil can actually be an advantage, because zinnias like a lot aeration in their root zone and, in tight claylike soils that don't breathe well, zinnias are susceptible to root rot.

As you can see from the picture on the left, it is difficult to properly nourish a zinnia from a small root volume. This zinnia was in a 2 1/2 inch pot, which is pretty small. That simulates crowded growing conditions. It was long overdue for being repotted when this picture was taken. Despite my watering it with a "complete" hydroponic nutrient formula, it was already showing signs of nutrient deficiency.

The seed leaves (cotyledons) had already shrivelled and died and, as you can see, the lower leaves were losing their color as well. The nutrient requirements of flower formation were not being met by my small pot, so the plant was beginning to pull nutrients from the older parts of the plant and use them in the newly growing flower parts and possibly seed embryos. (This was a "breeder" based on its unusual two-stem plant structure.)

You can be very successful with sand by treating it as a hydroponic substrate and watering the sand with the equivalent of hydroponic nutrients, including everything that the plants need in soluble form. For continuing use, you should dilute the nutrients to about one teaspoon per gallon and no more than one tablespoon per gallon.

As soon as you snip out a "cull" zinnia, the surrounding zinnias benefit essentially instantly from the lack of competition, with better sun and air and less competition in the root zone. If they have already grown in a more vertical "up" configuration, as the zinnia on the left has, they will retain that existing stem structure, but will be free to develop side branches from that structure. The overall plant can be OK. In my Maine garden, I routinely spaced my zinnias too close together, with the idea of snipping out a lot of rejects for the compost pile. But I did let them get to the bloom stage before doing that, because I did want to cull based on the bloom itself.

You can also get some benefits from the opportunity to select which zinnia seedlings remain, even before the blooming phase. You can select for thick stems, long narrow leaves, leaf size, tendency to produce side shoots, and a rapidly growing plant. I have a personal preference for leaves with ruffled edges and pointed tips, and I prefer there to be a growing point at the base of each leaf. But the whole idea of doing your own plant breeding is that you get to define what is "good".

ZM

I've applied some granular triple 8 fertilizer and will look into possibly using a water soluable fertilizer drench/foliar program in the future.

I've already had a few casualties due to the pounding rain of thunderstorms.

The Persian Carpets are up and doing quite well. I'm anxious to see their variety.

Arlan

It's been a busy time here. Lots of plowing and planting--I am trying to get all my seeds in before the next rain. I've got all my crosses from last year, the "small" other-species zinnias, the Benaries, whirligigs and scabiosas from different sources as well as a few of the cactus type planted. Today I am planting more of the cactus type as well as some of the seeds coming from random crosses last summer. I thought it was interesting that the Zahara (marylandica from Stokes) seeds had a yellow coating. Against the darker soil, it was helpful to see exactly where the seeds were going. The package was gone before I had a chance to see exactly what the coating was for.

After all this planting (and then rain), the next step is weeding. I only seriously weed once before the zinnias take over their plots, which is great!

JG

My zinnias are so young that I'm almost scared to comment on them. One of last year's six foot purples hardly produced any male flowers at all. However, in one seedhead I found three seeds that look like they are products of selfing. One of them came up a 3Z. It has formed its first true leaves and is still a 3Z. Nothing else is noteworthy yet.

You mentioned the 'Zahara' seed having a coating. My Burpee 'Highlights' said "pelleted" on the package, but they were not. Can "pelleted" have another meaning?

It's been a busy time here, too. I've been weeding, feeding, moving zinnias outside, repotting, cross-pollinating, and saving seeds. A couple of days ago, while saving seeds from the specimen which was originally pictured back on Thu, Mar 19, 09 at 10:15 in Part 9 (I'll link it in here just so you don't have to go looking for it),

I noticed that several seeds were stuck together in twin configurations. I was able to separate some, but others seemed so tightly linked that I might damage or kill an embryo in separating them. I left an example petal seed and a floret seed together for this picture:

I probably will forcibly separate them before planting them, to avoid having two seedlings emerge from essentially the same spot. This certainly isn't a feature I was breeding for, but it is possible that this might make the seeds resistant to seed eating birds. It remains to be seen whether these twin seeds will reappear in the future. They are a bit annoying when packaging seeds. If it is a common mutation in zinnias, commercial seed processing machinery probably destroys them.

Well, busy, busy. I still have some re-potting to do. And I plan to plant a bunch more seeds in my little 2 1/2 inch square pots, to protect them from the ravages of the outside world (cutworms primarily).

ZM

This is a picture that I took today of one of my second generation recombinants that bloomed out a couple of days ago.

It has obvious scabiosa flowered influence and, although it isn't particularly unusual, at least it isn't a single. I like its coloration and its modified guard petals, so it is being used as a breeder.

ZM

This is the my first season of gardening. I have zinnia plants coming along, but have not bloomed yet. Can you give me a simple and easy to understand process on how to cross polinate zinnias?

Brianne

First, you select a zinnia flower that you like that has some pollen florets that have opened and pushed out a little of the pollen in the center of the floret, and you touch a small artists brush to the pollen to get some pollen on the tip of the brush. The zinnia pollen is a yellow powder, and it remains viable for less than 24 hours. But new florets can appear every morning.

The pollen florets open in the mid morning, and you will need to be there ahead of the bees. Then you go to a zinnia chosen to be the "mother" and touch the pollen to the stigmas at the base of the petals. The stigmas look like small yellow forked snake tongues.

If the cross "took", the stigma will wither and die in a day or two. If the cross did not take, the stigma will remain healthy and yellow, awaiting another attempt to pollinate it. A zinnia stigma can remain receptive for a week or more, so you have an ample window of opportunity to pollinate or cross-pollinate it. If you keep pollinating a zinnia for several days, you can get a very good yield of seeds from the bloom. Since a zinnia plant normally produces several blooms, you can accumulate a lot of cross-pollinated seeds from one exceptional mother zinnia.

As an alternative to an artists brush, you can use tweezers, twissors (scissors-like tweezers sometimes used to pluck eyebrows and available in drugstores), or small forceps to grasp the floret at the narrow base, gently remove it from the flower, and take it to the chosen mother to rub the floret like a little brush on its stigmas.

Depending on the situation, I use an artists brush, twissors, or small locking forceps. The artists brush is the gentler method and does not sacrifice the floret but, if there is any wind, I usually do use the floret itself to brush the pollen on. I have some slanted tip twissors that I like and a "favorite" 3 1/2 inch pair of Kelly forceps. If you have any questions about any of this, feel free to ask.

ZM (formerly MM)

One can get pulled in some interesting directions with so many wonderful plants to enjoy.

I assume color is one of the real anticipated outcomes but you may be more of a "petal man". :)

Brianne

The orange flower posted on May 23 is a very nice color and interesting form. It would be great to have a line of zinnias with large flowers like that! There are so many possibilities for all of us to go after!

Your twin seeds are different. I don't know of anything that I've seen that resembles those! The one anomaly I have seen this spring thus far were the seedlings I observed from The Burpee 'White Wedding' strain. About a third of all (25)seedlings had strange seed leaves, or cotyledons. On these affected plants, one seed leaf was normal and the other had a large lobe on it, nearly making it a "tricot", or 3Z, as HC put it. There was one tricot arising from that package. The fact that so many seeds gave rise to this type of anatomy convinces me that it CAN be a genetic thing. The following true leaves looked normal, though.

I have many plants coming up in the garden now. I'll look them over to see if I have anything else different.

JG

Brianne

Apparently none of the garden books mention it, but you can successfully propagate zinnias asexually by taking cuttings from a choice plant. This grouping of zinnias were all started as cuttings from the same scabiosa flowered zinnia.

The "secret" to growing zinnia cuttings is to use Physan 20, diluted 1 1/2 teaspoons per gallon, as a sterilizing solution to kill any fungi or bacteria on the zinnia cutting. I leave the cuttings submerged in a bucket of the Physan 20 solution for about 5 minutes. Zinnia leaves can drown, so you don't want to leave the cuttings submerged for very long. (I learned that the hard way, by killing a bucket of zinnia cuttings with an overnight submersion.) If you don't use Physan 20, there is a high probability that bacteria will attack the soft zinnia cutting and rot it.

To be on the safe side, I use half-strength (3/4 teaspoon per gallon) Physan 20 to moisten the cutting medium. I use any good rooting hormone. I have used Hormex 3 and Hormex 8 powders successfully, as well as Rootone powder and the Dip 'n Grow liquid rooting concentrate. Hormex 1 worked, but formed roots slower. I think Hormex 1 is a little too weak for the best results with zinnias, but I would use it generously if that were all I had.

I'll try to remember to take a picture the next time I load a tray of cuttings. I root them under fluorescent lights so that the leaves keep manufacturing food for the plant. You need to use a tall humidity dome to keep the cuttings from wilting until they have time to grow roots, which is usually a week or 10 days. There are several advantages to propagating cuttings from a choice hybrid zinnia, but I do it primarily to get a higher seed yield.

ZM

Thanks for the info. Did you plant any zinnia seeds directly into the ground, not growing them inside first? And if you did have they bloomed yet? Everyones talking about their blooming flowers and mine haven't bloomed yet. I know I have to be patient but it's hard when everyone is showing off there pictures. And those cuttings you have are really nice.

"Did you plant any zinnia seeds directly into the ground, not growing them inside first?"

Not this year. In previous years, when I had more available space in my Maine garden, I did plant large numbers of zinnia seeds directly inground. They bloomed in about six to seven weeks. In my present circumstances, with much less available garden space, I will probably start all of my zinnias inside in 2½ inch square pots, 32 pots per tray, 4 trays per shelf. When they get enough size on them to be relatively safe from cutworms, I will transplant them into outdoor garden space. I re-potted the last of my 2½" pots today, so I will probably start planting some more seeds tomorrow. I like to make several plantings of zinnias during the year.

ZM

Ok thanks. I planted them a few weeks ago, because my mom said "Wait until the last frost!" They have shown a lot of growth but there definitely a little small. I wonder if its because we haven't been getting a lot of sun this past week and a half. But everyday I see them get a little bigger so I know they're pulling their way through the cloudy/rainy week.

Brianne

Waiting until after the last frost was definitely good advice, because zinnias are tender and any kind of freeze will kill them. Apparently that doesn't apply to their seeds, which can come up as self-seeded volunteers after a harsh Winter.

"They have shown a lot of growth but they are definitely a little small. I wonder if it's because we haven't been getting a lot of sun this past week and a half. But everyday I see them get a little bigger, so I know they're pulling their way through the cloudy/rainy week."

Zinnias, like many plants, can absorb some foliar-fed sugar through their leaves, and they can use that as a supplement to the sugar that they synthesize by photosynthesis. Conceivably, sugar could become a limiting factor during a cloudy spell. On several such occasions, I have foliar fed my zinnia patch with sugar, augmented with a small amount of glycerine to help in the sugar absorption. I experimented with sugar dosage amounts of one tablespoon per gallon, but even two tablespoons per gallon seemed OK. I used less glycerine, only a teaspoon or two per gallon of sugar mixture.

I was a little concerned that covering my zinnias with sugar would attract a lot of ants (several species of ants were common in my garden, including one species that "herded" aphids for their sugary nectar secretions) but, as it turned out, the thin film of sugar was too thin for the ants to take advantage of with their mouthparts. The ants didn't seem to notice the foliar sugar.

Incidentally, there is a significant amount of light even during cloudy weather, so photosynthesis doesn't come to a complete stop, but it can become a limiting factor to the growth rate.

I didn't do a scientific control study, but repeated sugar foliar sprays seemed to keep my zinnias growing at full speed during an extended period without sunshine. I repeated the sugar foliar sprays after each of the two or three rains that occurred during that period. The glycerine adjuvant is optional, but I think it helps more sugar to be absorbed by the leaves, and it may have nutritive value as well.

ZM

Brianne

Brianne

I've been following everyone's comments with interest; haven't said much myself--not much to report yet! My tallest zinnias here in central Indiana are those I've started indoors under lights, and transplanted outside, and are about 6 inches tall now. The ones initially planted outside (over a range of dates in May) run from just-germinated seedlings to plants about 4 inches tall. Thus far, the Stokes Zahara (marylandica) are the slowest to come up. I have one large garden, three smaller beds, and three very small beds. Weeding at first will be a big challenge. I usually cultivate with my small tiller between rows, but also mulch some with dried grass clippings and pulled weeds. I'm pleased that many of my seeds from crosses have germinated, and I hope to give some reports on the results of those crosses as the season wears on. Most likely, I'll be getting my first blooms end of June.

JULY BONNET zinnia

Thus far, I have at least 30 offspring of July Bonnet
and I'll try to show you what flowers arising from that selfed plant look like! It was a strange flower, and I think Arlan said earlier that the offspring may give us some clues as to its parentage. And as ZM has observed with many of his own crosses, many of the resulting plants will most likely head to the compost pile! Anyway, I'll try to post flowers of all offspring so we'll get an idea of what happens to an ordinary gardener's attempt at zinnia breeding!

JG

I, too, eagerly await pictures of the "July Bonnet" offspring. This is a picture of a recent recombinant bloom.

At first glance it is a rather conventional cactus flowered zinnia, but it does have the corrugated petals that I like, wider spacing between the petals, and the petal tips are a bit unusual with a touch of "toothiness". Generally, I like for my zinnia blooms to have their petals rather widely spaced for a lot of "air", partly for aesthetics, and partly for the health of the bloom. I don't like for aphids to hide between closely packed petals. This specimen is a keeper for the present, and possibly a breeder, depending on its future development.

ZM

I too am anxious to see everyone's flowers this year. JG, your July Bonnet progeny has all of us on the edge of our chairs! ZM, you continue to show us progress towards your goals. The petals of your last flower remind me a bit of claws with their down turned "toothed" ends.

Many of my plants are getting very close to flowering. As I learn about these plants, I find it helpful to photograph them and study the enlarged images. I discover new things to me all the time this way! This evening I took a couple pictures of flower buds to see how the the various elements develop. Here are a couple:

This is a flower bud of Zowie, showing the rolled ray florets emerging.

These are of a Whirligig bud that is definitely less colorful at this stage!

Arlan

Wow! Those are some up-close photos! Much closer than any I have done. And sharp. How were you able to take such close pictures? Do you have some kind of macro lens? Now we can all share the expectancy of waiting for zinnia buds to unfold.

ZM

HC, no, I didn't see any picture from you. I did check this forum last night, but I didn't see anything. Could you try again?

ZM's goal of getting flowers with toothed petals is an interesting one.... the orange flower posted on June 1 was a good example, and as usual makes me want to select flowers with that trait, too. It definitely makes for a different flower. ZM, that June 1 flower does indeed seem to have many of the elements you are looking for.

HC, I hope you can get your picture online...I never saw it either!

Arlan, your photos are great! What very interesting designs and geometry you captured in those shots! Kind of a study in "floral embryology"--unfurling petals, sepal design and arrangement,chaffy scales.....

We have been having a wave of alternating sunny hot days and rains...lots of good conditions for getting zinnias started.

JG

Since I started using photos to learn about my plants, the learning curve has been steep. I have learned that if in passing something catches my eye about a plant, even if I don't specifically know what it is, I often can determine it's uniqueness after studying close-up photographs of it and the surounding plants. I know I am a better observer in the garden because of it....and it is the observation of differences that really helps in hybridizing and visualizing potential in your plants.

"How were you able to take such close pictures? Do you have some kind of macro lens? "

ZM, I may have stated before that I use a Canon Powershot Pro1 which is a 5 year old upper end point and shoot digital camera. We are all pretty much familiar with the "Flower" setting on our cameras. I used this at first, but was not satisfied with the quality of the pictures. The depth of field was so narrow that only a small part of my subjects were in focus. They were also not perfectly in focus and most disintegrated quickly when enlarged. I was using the Auto exposure and Auto focus settings.

I scoured my manual and discovered a menu setting called "SuperMacro." This was only available with manual aperture settings. My camera has the ability for me to set the aperture and yet let the camera deterine the shutterspeed for proper exposure. I use this to my advantage by setting the aperture as high as I can to increase the depth of field and then use the flash to get enough light for proper exposure. With the flash, the shutter speed is very high. This coupled with the relatively very short duration of the light from the flash creates a picture that is usually exceptionally clear and in focus. I find that the standardized light source (flash) minimizes the variation we see in color capture under different light conditions. It is very accurate, except for some of the magentas and purples I often see in my Japanese Morning Glories and other flowers. I get better results with this set up in the shade or evening, as bright sunlight creates over exposed highlights.

In this scenario, I was then limited with how close I could get to the subject. The flash shadow caused by the lens creates an under exposed subject. My camera was able to focus much closer than I could be and still get enough light for proper exposure. Without purchasing a detached flash apparatus, I learned that I could maximize the zoom and back away from the subject far enough to get proper flash lighting and still have a "closer" image than with out using the zoom. These now are my default settings when I approach the garden to document my grow outs.

When I really want to get close, I have had limited success with using max zoom, approach very close and then use an impromptu reflector to bounce the flash onto the subject. I typically keep it very simple - a folded piece of typing paper or white card stock. The beauty of digital photography allows one to experiment easily with immediate feedback to learn the best combinations for the desired result.

In the interest of learning, here is tonight's photo of the Zowie flower. It grew quite a bit today and now is showing the beautiful bi-color development to the rays. I can only see this in this close up, not by bare eye in the garden. The rays are now also moving to the horizontal position...

Here is the Whirligig bud with longer rays, still vertical. I'm intrigued by the green color of the bottom surface of the rays, wondering if this may be a normal thing for white?

Arlan

About that picture -- I didn't see it either. A possible explanation is that you used "Preview Message" to verify that your message appeared with the picture, but then forgot to click on the "Submit Message" button. That mistake is fairly easy to do in this forum, because the Previewed message looks so much like the Submitted message. I've never known one of my forum messages to disappear after I actually submitted it, although I guess that would be possible if there were some kind of Server problem.

ZM

More impressive close-ups. Thanks for the explanation of your ingenious photo-taking techniques. I'm pretty sure that my wife's Kodak Z712 IS does not have a hidden "SuperMacro" mode. I have had very poor luck with its Manual mode. I am pretty much limited by the camera, although I can simulate a super closeup by cropping a small piece out of a "regular" photo. But that never looks very good for me. I guess I will muddle along in the Flower Mode until I get the budget to get a Nikon SLR with a macro lens.

ZM

I had the most major storm ever last night. It was the greatest t-storm I have ever seen. Apparently all of my other plants (carrots, radishes, cucumbers, marigolds, lettuce, and amaryllis) all were to the side or flattened a little bit. (The wind and rain even blew of a bloom from my marigolds) But my zinnias were all fine! Like it didn't even rain. There not that big yet too, and they held up against the weather. But because of so much rain, we got 4 new seedlings. At least I have something to be happy about!

Brianne

Let's see if I can post a photo of a tricotyledon. What appears white is dew.

Wow! That one is definitely a 3Z, with the first true leaves being a triad, as well as three cotyledons. I was about to say "the first pair of true leaves", but corrected myself.

Let's hope it develops good flowers so that you can save lots of seeds from them. So far, my seeds saved from threesies have failed to produce any tricot seedlings, but hope springs eternal. Apparently getting a threesie strain of zinnias is not going to be easy.

ZM

That's a nice example! The symmetry is great with the two sets of threes. What were the parents of that one? Let us know the progress with that plant..

JG

Now a few questions. I am just starting my planting. If I get a packet like "Giant Cactus," will all of the flowers look about the same except perhaps color difference? Last year only two survived the snail attack, and they look the same. The reason I am asking is if they all the same, maybe I should just plant 2 or 3 instead of a row. Or will I get different looks from a cactus type?

The other ones are liliput and thumberlina. I got different type of liliputs last year (some had standard zinnia petals which I didn't like, but some looked nice).

Also Thumbelina mix. Even the packet picture show differnt types of petals. So what is thumbelina? Just a mixture?

The liliput and thumberlina are small. Are they diploids? Will they cross with the big ones?

Other than the above, I have also sown today Candy Cane, State Fair, Dahlia-Flower, Burpee's Whirligig, Giant Double, and Burpeeana Giants Mix (which looks like a mixture of different flower types too).

"The lilliput and thumbelina are small. Are they diploids? Will they cross with the big ones?"

Both the Lilliputs and Thumbelinas are diploids and, yes, they can cross with the big zinnias, with very interesting results, I might add.

"I have also sown today Candy Cane, State Fair, Dahlia-Flower, Burpee's Whirligig, Giant Double, and Burpeeana Giants Mix..."

That's a good assortment. The State Fair is a tetraploid. The rest are diploids. Burpee also has a strain of Tetras. I haven't done much with tetras, but I think the possibility exists to cross them with diploids and get triploids. Seedless watermelons are triploids. I think all of the commercial bananas are triploids.

Triploids are almost always sterile, like a Mule. But that can be a good thing. There is at least one triploid marigold, which doesn't need deadheading because it is sterile, and blooms floriferously, because none of its energy goes into seed making. If you happened to get a really unique triploid zinnia, there is the possibility of propagating it from cuttings. Or, who knows? Maybe tissue culture.

"If I get a packet like "Giant Cactus," will all of the flowers look about the same except perhaps color difference?"

Nominally they would look the same except for color differences, but in reality you will see other differences, some perhaps a bit subtle. Zinnias have a lot of natural variation. Some will be semi-double, and others will be very double and put out little, if any, pollen, making them suitable as female breeders.

As you spend more time looking at zinnias, you will start to notice odd little differences. Occasionally you will see stigmas with three arms, instead of the usual two. Florets usually have five or six arms, but sometimes you will see more. Some zinnias have thicker stems. The plant habit and branching form can vary. Leaf shape varies from short and rounded to rather long and narrow and sharp pointed. Some zinnias have a slight fragrance. Petal shapes vary a lot, as does the whole flower form. Some zinnia flowers are rather flat like daisies, while others are very deep, sometimes deeper than they are wide. The more zinnias you grow, the greater your chances are of finding something unusual. You can cross and save seeds from those unusual zinnia variations that interest you. As you continue that from generation to generation, the cumulative effect can be considerable.

ZM

Last year, when I planted cactus zinnias, I actually did see quite a bit of variation in things like color (solid vs. two- or three- tone), and petals (some close together, some spaced apart; some very thin, some thicker; some wider, some narrower). My impression is that the more expensive the seeds are, the more uniform the plants tend to be (vendor tries harder to conform with advertised qualities). I saw a lot of variation within the Park "Bright Jewels" and HPS cactus zinnias I planted last year. The Burpeanas were more uniform, I thought.

ZM has really good comments (above, June 7)..

JG

JG, I have the same feel about the price and variation thing. Sometimes they have specific look and color, and those are more expensive. Some of the cheaper ones (not only zinnia) sounds like they are just some mix or open-pollinated things, which is fine for me as I am interested in variation at this point.

You are right, HC. Burpee's Big Tetra should be able to cross with State Fair, and vice versa. I have been ambivalent toward tetraploid zinnias, mainly for the reasons voiced by Boyle and Stimart in section 6.3 Polyploidy in Chapter 12 Zinnias of Flower Breeding and Genetics. In the last part of the first paragraph they say,

"Relative to diploids, tetraploid zinnias have larger flowers and thicker, stronger stems but also have poorer seed germination, less branching, delayed flowering and fewer capitula [blooms]. Difficulties also occur with producing autotetraploid lines with a uniform phenotype due to additional alleles affecting ligule [petal] color and plant habit."

I'm not positive what all of that means, but I don't like the idea of less branching, delayed flowering, and fewer blooms. I have noticed that all of my tetraploid State Fairs in the past have had characteristically spoon-shaped petals, not particularly to my liking. But you can create your own tetraploid zinnia strains by using colchicine, and I am wondering if tetraploid cactus flowered zinnias would still have the cactus flowered flower form or would take on the spoon-shaped-petals form. And I am also quite curious what tetraploid scabiosa flowered zinnias would look like. Colchicine is a dangerous poison that requires careful handling, but I am definitely considering creating some tetraploid zinnia strains myself.

In my opinion, a very attractive possibility for using tetraploid Z. violaceas (State Fair, Burpee's Tetras, or home-brew tetraploids) would be in back-crossing them (in both directions) with Z. marylandica (Profusions, Knee-High Profusions, Zaharas, Pinwheels, etc.) That statement is based on the last paragraph (on page 346) of 6.2 Interspecific Crosses in the aforementioned Boyle and Stimart Chapter 12 Zinnia.

I have already experienced poor germination with my Burpee's Tetra zinnias, but I have some more seed, and plan to plant them in a week or so.

ZM

When I bought "State Fair Mix" a while ago, it didn't have picture (I bought it from superseeds). Today I saw a packet with picture and it shows typical zinnia that I don't like. But it didn't show spoon-shaped petals. There are probably so many variations. I hope mine will give some spoon-shaped petals though as I kind of like them (sort of like chrysanthemums).

I read about colchicine in daylily books/sites. Won't do anything with it for this year as I am still new and any variety will be interesting for me this year.

"Spoon shaped" probably isn't an accurate description. The petals have basically the same silhouette as a California Giant petal, but the edges are bowed up slightly so that the petal can actually hold a little water, like a spoon can. Looking at the petal from above, it is slightly concave. I have a Burpee Big Tetra beginning to bloom now, and I will check its petals to see if they are shaped like the State Fairs.

ZM

HC, I got your email about ploidity of zinnia a while ago. Thanks! Sorry I didn't sent a reply because I only access my emails for the account is on another computer which is dying....

I just spent a good part of the day clearing out weeds. We've had a lot of rain in the last several days (about two inches) along with warm weather and everything is taking off! I have no flowers (just buds so far!)to show yet, but saw some interesting things today that I will share. I'm trying to be a better observer now, and for the first time, I noticed guttation on my zinnia leaves (water forced out through the leaves because of high root pressure resulting from all the water in the soil). All the leaves are edged with little drops of water, as shown below.

One of my favorite zinnias last year had bright red scabious flowers.

Now one of the offspring of that plant has pigment in its leaves, below. I don't know if I remember seeing this somewhat "pink" color in leaves before--usually, if present, it is a darker maroon.

JG

I like the scabious flowers. Will probably order some from T&M tomorrow. I like that type of deep red too.

Guttation is new to me. I have seen it happen on my pothos but I never knew what it was. Now I know that I probably overwatered.

I'm also growing some seed I saved from 2006 of some State Fair plants I grew for the butterflies. One seed lot in particular is giving various shades of a violet cranberry color. The tetraploid spoon shaped petal influence mentioned by ZM previously is evident in varying degrees in the siblings. Here is a simple single that has attracted me due to its intense color.

This is a sibling to the flower above and wears a nice bi-color look. It also sports a sort of double/fasciated center. The flower form is certainly not noteworthy, but I really like the colors I'm getting.

Arlan

A gallery of this grow out is posted here:

Your zinnia guttation photo is fascinating. I think I may have seen that before, but not recently. Your leaves with the pink in them are amazing. Like you, I have seen a darker maroon before, but never anything like that pink at the base of the leaves. That is almost coleus like.

Arlan,

Those violet cranberry State Fair descendents have some unexpected color variations. I have never seen bicolors in tetraploid zinnias before. Most interesting. I am glad you saved seeds from those State Fairs.

DM,

That Burpee Big Tetra that I mentioned earlier has bloomed out now.

The Burpee Big Tetra zinnia appears to have spoon shaped petals very similar to those of the State Fairs. I hope that tetraploid zinnias aren't somehow limited to that flower form. I don't expect that they are, although it appears that the commercially available tetraploid Z. violaceas currently are. Incidentally, the wires in that picture are part of a "zinnia cage".

ZM

I have a lot of stages of zinnias growing now! And, I plan to start a small bed of Park 'Big Reds' when the seeds come in next week. Some of my plants have buds now, but many are only an inch or so high. I was very disappointed to check on some of them about a week ago, and found that something had chewed the seed leaves right off the stems! I noticed ants running around on the ground there. I don't know if those would be the type of ants that carry leaves to their nests underground, but it was very annoying! I don't like to use pesticides in the garden because of our bees, but this time, I just got out my can of House and Garden Raid and sprayed it on the ground there..these were about 30 of my July Bonnet seedlings, and this destruction had to stop. Anyway, the Raid has worked with one application. Hope not to have to use it again! If the ants come back, hopefully it will be when the plants are big and can better resist them.

Arlan, those shades of purple and corals in that State Fair offspring are really nice. The combination of colors would make you a pretty flower bed! (I wonder if you are going to try for a blue zinnia?) I had one Park 'Bright Jewels' cactus last year that had a similar color scheme:

JG

I was rethinking the possibilities of working with the tetraploids. Because of having so many more (possible)combinations of alleles with the double chromosome number, I would guess the potential would be there of getting combinations of characters/traits, etc. leading to phenotypes not yet seen in the diploids. Hmmm..you folks are way ahead of me...

JG

ZM, the Big Tetra looks like what they show on the package. I wonder if Big Tetra and Giant Double are the same thing packaged by/for different companies. I don't know if they don't that in flower/seed industry.

JG, now I am glad I planted some State Fair too.

Has anyone grown Red Spider? I read somewhere (maybe on Garden Web) that many are disappointed by it. Oh well, I have a packet. Maybe I will still toss a few seeds somewhere.

I am a bit skeptical about the potential of tetraploid zinnias, because there are so few of them in the marketplace. I think that State Fair, Burpee Big Tetras, and Old Mexico are it. My germination with Burpee Big Tetras was surprisingly low. Those seeds were a bit old, but I have had good germination with diploid zinnia seeds that were over five years old under room storage conditions, just stored in a drawer. The lower germination may be a deterrent for commercial tetraploid zinnias. But tetraploids do offer some new zinnia breeding opportunities, particularly the potential for crosses with Z. marylandicas.

I am sorry to hear that pests got a bunch of your July Bonnet seedlings. Dealing with pests and diseases takes on added importance when you are growing zinnias that have breeding significance. I have never experienced any leaf-cutting ants on my zinnias (I thought that leaf-cutting ants were confined to the Tropics), although aphid-herding ants have been an on-going problem. I would suspect slugs for eating seedling cotyledons in their entirety. Pillbugs or sowbugs will also attack zinnia seedlings under some conditions, although they usually leave skeletonized leaves, rather than eating them completely. Cutworms are a threat, but they leave the characteristic evidence of a felled seedling. In this picture taken a couple of days ago,

there is evidence of thrips damage on at least two petals. I confirmed a visual sighting of the thrips. One of my projects today is to apply some insecticide to deal with both the thrips and the aphids that are affecting my breeder zinnias.

ZM

I heard about the tropical ants, too, growing fungus on leaves underground. I think probably the ants I saw may simply use the leaves with twigs and other things to build their nest. The only reason I say that is that when the ants were gone, so was the damage, but it's entirely possible I destroyed or repelled a pest I never saw!

Possibly through a series of selections, a strain of tetraploid could be chosen that is fairly stable with regard to germination and other qualities. I don't know!
I have my hands full with other crosses this year, but may try to grow out some tetraploids next year. I saved seed from State Fair last year, but those zinnia seeds are mixed in with all the rest of unplanned (random) crosses.

That last zinnia you're showing is great--unusual color combinations! You have so many irons in the fire with all those new zinnias you've been showing us, I don't know how you keep up! Have you ever put any of your zinnias in a flower show?

Dave, I've grown Red Spider, and have shown pictures of it in past threads. When I grew it, I had it in with a number of other small zinnias, like the haageanas, peruvianas, angustifolias, Swizzles, and marylandicas. I grew them pretty densely, and together, they nearly made a ground cover!

JG

I agree that the first flower seems to have a hint of bi-color as well. It seems to be masked by the darker color of the rest of the flower. I recall seeing this bi-color in flowers when I originally grew them, but paid little attention as my focus then was butterflies.

JG, you picked up on my thoughts as well. I do believe that having four copies of each gene instead of just two gives interesting possibilities to expression. I think I can see it in the colors of the State Fair grow-outs. I'm speculating as I have not read up on this yet, but thinking a flower can have one genome for orange and one for pink and produce a coral color. I imagine the raspberry or cranberry color could be produced this same way.

I realize that my depth of experience is very shallow here...as I've only had the opportunity to observe the results of commercial seed packet zinnias prior to this. Maybe the grow outs of diploid seed lots have this very graduated variation in color shades also?

ZM, you raise a good point about the lack of commercial tetraploid strains. The difficulties you quoted from Chapter 12 obviously heavily influence this. Difficulties often mean opportunities for hobbyists who do not have the profit motive/constraint. I have dahlia type petals on some of my State Fairs but not cactus type petals. I do have one small white with curly petals though....maybe there is hope! This discussion and the tetra color results this year have motivated me to order the Burpee Big Tetras today though.

Germination of my State Fairs have been great...they also produced the high number of albino/yellow seedlings.

One of my Burpee Giant Flowered plants has the exagerated spoon petals that were discussed a while ago. It is a semi-double which makes for an interesting look. I'll self it and see what comes...! Here is a mug shot. I can just imagine this with a scabious center! - Arlan

That's one of the best looking spoon-petalled zinnias I have seen. Now I'm thinking there is justification for creating a spoon-petalled strain of zinnias. JG and I have both had some spoon-petalled specimens in the past. I have sort of "blown off" my spoon petalled examples, because they were singles or near singles. My single spoons went into my compost pile. But your specimen, with two rows of petals and a third row forming, is pretty darn attractive.

I think there is a spoon-petalled strain of chrysanthemums that look quite good, because their petals are longer and thinner with a really pronounced spoon on the end. But your spoon specimen suggests that zinnias can play that game, too. Definitely, save all the seeds you can from that specimen.

ZM

I've caged the spoon petalled flower and have been selfing it. Now I will probably also share its pollen with a few scabiosa flowers.

Have you seen any visible difference between the plants of the Big Tetra and your diploid plants? I must say that I can not see a difference in leaf size, flower size or other physical characteristics between the State Fair descendants and the Violet Queen descendants growing right next to them. After learning that the State Fair strain was tetraploid, I was expecting deeper green, thicker leaves etc.

Arlan

I'm joining you and others in the 3Z Club...I found a Chippendale(haageana) that seems to be committed to a threes pattern..it's mulched lightly here with old daffodil leaves...we'll see what happens.

Arlan, your spoon zinnia has such a good color..form is interesting, too! I think, too, that multiple layers of petals with the exagerated spoon shape would make a unique flower.

JG

Is anyone growing seed saved from 'Swizzles'? I know they are hybrids and I was not interested in growing any F2's, but I used them extensively for outcrosses last year. I bought them as a potted plant and set them out in the garden, so I never had the opportunity to learn anything about their infancy. My experience this year is that the seedlings are tiny. This is true whether sprouting from seed saved from 'Swizzle' petals or seed saved from 'Violet Queen' pollinated by 'Swizzle'. I would love to hear anyone else's experiences with this variety.

The seedlings that have come up from commercially-offered Swizzle seeds looked like the others for me. I had several lots of seeds arising from Swizzle crosses that I planted this spring. I had a few seeds from a Red and White Swizzle (male)-Big Red (female) cross and some from a Red and White Swizzle (female)-Big Red (male) cross. I've gotten only three seedlings back from these crosses combined. We'll see what the offspring look like. I worry that they may be results of wind-pollination or self-pollination, but we'll see! The Big Reds are so big they may well be tetraploids, but the horticulturist at Park claimed he "didn't know." (!!!!!) Those seedlings coming up look comparable to the other seedlings I have. I also had seeds resulting from a Red and White Swizzle (male)-T&M Giant cactus (female) cross which I accidentally mixed in with seeds from another cross. I can only say that there are normal-sized seedlings coming up from that, but I don't know which cross each is coming from! And, I haven't looked into whether the T&M Giant Cactus are tetraploids.

JG

Arlan, I like that type of spoon shape too.

HC, I wasn't scared by the email. I originally was interested in hybridizing daylilies and amaryllis, so I am familiar with plodity. Amaryllises take 3 years to bloom, so I lost interest. Daylilies take 1-2 years because my growing season is short, so I later felt that I would just go with quicker annuals.

I guess tetraploids has 2 sides of a sword. It gives us more possibilities but at the same time more difficult to fix once you find a plant that you like.

This is the small white State Fair descendant that I mentioned earlier. It certainly contrasts with the ever present upward spoon cup/curl. I'll use it to broaden the selection base for future tetra flower types. The curl may be too tight and exagerated at this point for a pleasing flower, but I think a longer petal and higher petal count would certainly help. - Arlan

"Have you seen any visible difference between the plants of the Big Tetra and your diploid plants? I must say that I can not see a difference in leaf size, flower size or other physical characteristics between the State Fair descendants and the Violet Queen descendants growing right next to them. After learning that the State Fair strain was tetraploid, I was expecting deeper green, thicker leaves etc."

I expected more differences, too. Actually, I think you need a microscope or, at least, a high-power magnifier to tell dependably whether a zinnia is diploid or tetraploid. Supposedly, for the tetraploids, the stomata in the leaves are fatter, the pollen grains are bigger, and the hairs on the stems and leaves are thicker. I'll take a closer look at my Burpee Big Tetra to see if I can spot any more clues. The only way I knew my Burpee Big Tetra was a tetraploid was from the label that I placed in its seedling pot when I planted it. Its petal shape was the only overt characteristic, and there is growing evidence that we can't depend on petal shape as a reliable identifier.

ZM

"Is anyone growing seed saved from 'Swizzles'? I know they are hybrids and I was not interested in growing any F2's, but I used them extensively for outcrosses last year."

Even though you weren't interested in F2s as such from your F1 Swizzles, their pollen grains and egg cells were F2 recombinants, which you might think of as virtual F2s. You can think of them as "virtual" because those pollen grains and egg cells may have been carrying some odd F2 recombinations that you couldn't see and which will only indirectly show up in the hybrids that you cross pollinated. So you can't rule out some unpredictable results in your outcrosses from Swizzle. I don't know if there is any genetic factor in Swizzles that would make their seeds or seedlings "tiny". That could be at least partly environmental or nutritional.

ZM

Regarding spacing of zinnias...probably good horticultural practice would say to let plants grow one foot apart. That gives each plant lots of space to branch out as well as good access to sun, soil, and water to give optimum blooms. Definitely for landscaping, too, flowers look better when given adequate space.

But I want to get as many plants as I can, and often many of mine are as close as one inch apart in a row (sometimes closer!). When I have lots of seeds from a batch, I grab a handful, and sprinkle them in a shallow trench along the row, and then just rake them over lightly as you said. Rows are usually about 2 feet or more apart. Once the plants mature, that is not so obvious when looking at the garden! I am fortunate in that I have very good soil and lots of access to sun in the gardens. In most cases, rain is adequate, and when there are dry periods, I guess I am fortunate in that zinnias really can do well in dry conditions! My offspring from planned crosses are given about 5-6 inches apart in a row. The microgarden I had last year had rows spaced about eight inches apart, but once the plants got taller (some of them became lanky like the peruvianas,
tenuifolias, and in some cases, haageanas) it truly became jungle-like.

JG

We have just had an extremely hot, wet week in Indiana. Plants are growing quickly. Swizzles and scabious zinnias are beginning to bloom.. I have six plants coming from seeds of one of the red scabious flowers that I allowed to randomly cross with other zinnias in the garden. I am absolutely amazed at the diversity of the offspring of that plant! The red scabious zinnia that I had last year never produced pollen, so I had to rely strictly on outcrossing to get F1's. Once the sixth plant blooms from the one flower's offspring, I will post photos.

JG

Our weather is also hot and wet, with several recent storms that had high winds. As this picture shows,

my outside zinnias aren't fairing very well. The high winds have caused some damage despite the zinnia cages. The soil here is dark and heavy, and saturated with water, so that my zinnia roots get very little oxygen. I guess I need to do foliage feeding to improve their nutrition. It will be a challenge growing zinnias well outside in an environment that seems better suited to growing rice. I am starting a third generation inside with the hope that the outside conditions will improve by the time they are ready to set out.

ZM

I too have been hit with the heat! Triple digits at 2 PM creates a challenge for me with the sandy soil I have. If I can keep water to them, my zinnias are doing quite well. This snapshot shows the typically unachieving flowers of the State Fair grow out kept for the color display. The row to the right is Violet Queen descendancy.

JG, looking forward to seeing the diversity of flowers of your red scabiosa seed.

ZM, your golden scabiosa looks like a survivor!

Arlan

It is hotter today than yesterday. Today's high is predicted to be 96 and it is already 92 as I type this. Tomorrow's high is predicted at 99 with a Heat Index near 110. Arlan, I wish I had your sandy soil. This gummy stuff here is better suited for making durable mud pies or possibly ceramic pots, rather than for growing plants. I noticed that all the oak trees here are about half the height of those in Maine, although they are as old or older. I think they are just stunted by the oxygen depleted soil.

My outside zinnias are struggling, although the dappled shade from all the trees may be a blessing in disguise in this coming summer heat. The rusted appearance of the concrete re-mesh wire in the zinnia cages is normal. The cages last a long time, despite being covered by a "protective" coat of rust.

That little scabiosa hybrid recombinant is rather ordinary. It's not really partially white. That is just overexposure from dappled sunlight. As they say, what we need now is a blessing that is not in disguise. (grin)

ZM

ZM, your scabiosas are nice, despite being in a paddy. Are they home-bred or from a commercial source?

Arlan, your zinnias are pretty, too. You'll never tire of going out and inspecting each plant for different characteristics...meanwhile, look at all the color!

HC, wish I could get volunteers as you do! I don't believe I've ever had them!

Well, I planted a small bed of Big Reds two days ago outside, and with the rain and high temps, they have already germinated. My plants are growing with the near perfect conditions for germination, but like ZM, I see various types of damage. I have brown spots on leaves and petals of the more mature plants,I'm sure that are small infections or burnt spots resulting from all the moisture on the plants.

MY 3Z Chippendale is indeed committed to the threes pattern. The 7th layer of 3Z true leaves is ready to emerge. Interestingly, the side branches coming from the nodes have stems with two-leaved nodes, but the net result is that there is 1/3 more branching from the main stem.

Has anyone tried the Park Candy Mix scabiosas? I have, and although it seems there are the usual number of "compost-pile" types, the ones that manage to be scabious have well-formed florets in the center as in the one below:

More later..

JG

My scabiosas are "home bred". I figure that I have a better chance of getting the scabiosa flower form from seeds saved from a known scabiosa seedhead than from a field-grown mix of scabiosa flowered zinnias. I do have some Park's Candy Mix seeds that I intend to plant when I have more growing space. The florets on your Candy Mix do have a nice big look. By repeated backcrossing of scabiosa hybrids to giant zinnias, I hope eventually to get a breakthrough to some really giant florets. So far, my increases in floret size have been rather gradual, although I have made some progress in that direction.

Your 3Z Chippendale is quite interesting with its persistence in the plan-of-three growth. I hope you will save a lot of seeds from it in an attempt to get some 3Z progeny. So far, all of my progeny from 3Z plants have failed to retain the plant form. It's a puzzle. I have on one occasion gotten a 3Z side branch on a 3Z plant. So that's not impossible. Maybe I am being unrealistically optimistic, but I think it is possible to have a 100% 3Z zinnia plant. On the other hand, I don't have good evidence that the plan-of-three is even inherited.

Some of my "third wave" seedlings are big enough to repot now, so I guess I will be doing that tomorrow. My outdoor garden is such a bust that I am continuing the indoor project as a kind of backup.

ZM

Let me show you what happened when I allowed the below flower, a red scabious zinnia, cross randomly with other zinnias in the garden (we will presume pollination carried out by insects).

The mother flower, or at least, one similar example from the same plant, shown below:

The offspring (shown at different scale):

This one above has full, orange scabious flowers, about 1 1/2 inches across.

This one above not a good flower at all, but it may be damaged by the weather conditions we've had, too. Not like it's mother....

This flower above looks like it may have had a whirligig dad...has a good supply of disc flowers.

This above flower seems to me to be most like the mother flower, but the florets are a shorter red, and there are guard petals (damaged, I think) of a shade of fuscia.
This is the only plant that has inherited the relatively narrower leaves of its maternal parent, too.

The above flower seems uncertain of what to do--funny florets in the center, somewhat curly petals here and there, but keeping the red color for the most part.

Last, but not least:

This might be an interesting one. Daisy-like, some of the central florets turning brown due to too much rain, and more to come!

I couldn't believe what sorts of flowers came from that red scabious mother! It's kind as if anything goes when there are random crosses. I have four or five plants that resulted from planned crosses with the red scabious and a red cactus. Will see what happens.... But I sure would like to get another red scabious like the one I had last summer....

ZM, when you said "recombinant" flower I thought you probably meant home-bred, but I asked anyway. I think what you're doing is the right thing. I am going to eliminate those plants that produce mediocre flowers to get better lines going here. For now, though, I am nipping off the undesirable first flowers without destroying the plants. I think some ugly flowers may be resulting from poor environmental conditions!

I wonder if we should move to Part 11? ZM?

JG

Thanks to everyone for sharing! There are so many cool things to read/view today. I had thought that red might be one of the more stable zinnia colors, but when I saw the yellow offspring ......
I'll have to go out and count how many layers of three I got on my 3Z's, but one's newest layer consists of one normal leaf and one fused leaf.
I have another oddball that I hope to photograph. It began branching immediately after emerging from the ground.

I really like the photo of the Parks 'Candy Mix'.

I think the Candy Mix may offer some interesting traits. Here are three photos taken today:

I kind of like the flower on the right. It has overlapping layers of toothy petals which gives an interesting effect. The color is nice, too.

JG

Those three examples of Candy Mix are all quite good. The one on the right looks like it is going to develop into what I refer to as a Marigold Flowered zinnia, if it keeps putting out those toothy petals. Good breeder stuff there.

Your progeny from last year's good red scabiosa specimen are quite interesting. You must get a lot of free bee cross pollination in your zinnia patch.

" For now, though, I am nipping off the undesirable first flowers without destroying the plants. I think some ugly flowers may be resulting from poor environmental conditions! "

I think that is a good idea. Environmental conditions can cause a zinnia to make a poor first impression. I am putting some of my so-so specimens out in the garden for the butterflies. When I need the space, I will replace them.

"I wonder if we should move to Part 11? ZM?"

Agreed. See you all over in It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 11.

ZM