JG,

"you may end up one day with a flower with ... an entirly new form"

That is my hope. That is why I look for oddities in flowerform, and treat them as breeders when I find them. This is another progeny of the "dinosaur zinnia".

{{gwi:24670}}

It continues with the big stigs, and has long petals in a loose arrangement that gives good airflow through the floωer. These things have possibilities. I've got some re-potting to do, so ... more later.

ZM

ZM,

Both the long, spaced-out petals and the super-long stigmas give that flower a very non-zinnia look. It's interesting to see all the variation you're getting! Your outdoor garden this summer should give some good results, too!

I would love to start indoor planting for setting out in May, but I think it is still a little early. So, I continue to look over all the seed catalogs coming in. It seems that the Profusions and Marylandica-type zinnias are getting a lot of attention! Like you, they are not my favorites, but I think their hardiness and flowering ability make them attractive to landscapers.

JG

JG,

I think it is still a little early to start zinnias indoors to set out in May. They would probably be blooming by that time, or at least in bud. This is a recent scabiosa flowered recombinant that I have been putting polleп on.

{{gwi:21870}}

Aside from being a "threesie", it is a fairly conventional "marigold flowered" recombinant, but with a fairly complex ancestry, and some large leaves.

"It seems that the Profusions and Marylandica-type zinnias are getting a lot of attention!"

They sure are. New this year are a couple of fully double Marylandica varieties, Double Zahara Fire and Double Zahara Cherry. It now appears that there are numerous opportunities for making hybrids between various Marylandica cultivars. It might also be interesting to cross Marylandicas with Violaceas, despite the high likelihood that the hybrids would be sterile. The hybrids should be interesting, and might even inherit some of that famous disease resistance.

ZM

ZM,

The last flower reminds me a lot of a chrysanthemum, and I always like the three-leaved plants. You have good variety in your strains.

I don't know what will happen for me this year..I am going to try and grow out last year's seeds, both from planned and unplanned crosses. There may or may not be any extraordinary flowers! So, as I said before, I did break down and buy the Benary seeds as well as a few of the new Marylandicas and various others, and will devote a few small beds to those. It's interesting to note that if anyone wants to get the Persian Carpet (haageana)zinnias, it would be wise to shop around. Some companies are asking a lot more for those than others! I bought some to add to my seeds from last year, and will try and plant some near the house where it is hot and dry, as I think they will do fine there.

JG

JG,

"I don't know what will happen for me this year...I am going to try and grow out last year's seeds, both from planned and unplanned crosses. There may or may not be any extraordinary flowers!"

There are certainly no guarantees, but I am looking forward to some pictures from you of whatever you get. There is a lot of natural variation in zinnias, and a zinnia patch can be an interesting ecological system in its own right. I enjoy studyiпg the iпsects, even the harmful ones, the butterflies and the hummiпgbirds. And those odd visitors that appear from time to time, like spiders, wasps, and ants. It's hard to photograph the butterflies because they are so "flighty", but I may spend some time attempting that.

When I gardened in Fort Worth, spotted cucumber beetles were a common pest in my zinnias. I killed one on a zinnia here last year, so we are in range of them here in Kansas. Fortunately none of the females layed eggs on my zinnia floωers here yet, and I hope they don't. In Fort Worth I observed some damage from the beetles chewing petals and their larva eatiпg into the seedheads. Have you noticed Spotted Cucumber Beetles on your zinnias? At least (knock on wood) we don't have a problem with Japanese Beetles here. The JBs were a major annoyance in Maine.

I took this photo today of one of my newly blooming scabiosa based echinacea flowered recombinants.

{{gwi:24671}}

It is very similar to a specimen I had last year in the outside gardeп. More later.

ZM

ZM,

That scabiosa is a beauty! Did you receive the latest edition of the T&M catalog this past week? On the cover were "Candy Cane Mixed" scabious zinnias--and they made a very colorful front page photo!!

I haven't had the cucumber beetles on my zinnias. The only
things that bother my zinnias are Japanese beetles, the finches (pulling out seeds), and late in the season, mildew. I guess that's one of the many reasons I like zinnias so much...they have so few problems! And the Japanesse beetles usually gang up on certain zinnias and not on others, so they could be a lot worse. They are a disaster for roses as well as a particular apple tree I have that has fruit with red flesh.

JG

I got the T&M Catalog and the "Candy Cane" surprised me. I thought Candy Cane and Peppermint Sticks were the same, but this is different. They look very nice though.

ah, just came back from HD and now I know why. The Burpee's "Candy Cane" is more like "Peppermint Stick."

Burpee's Candy Cane:
http://www.burpee.com/product/annual+flowers/zinnias/zinnia+candy+cane+mix++-+1+pkt.+%2850+seeds%29.do?search=basic&keyword=zinnia&sortby=newArrivals&page=2

Thompson & Morgan's Candy Cane:
http://www.tmseeds.com/product/Zinnia_elegans_seeds_Candy_Cane_Mixed/Half_Hardy_Seeds

They always find ways to confuse us.

Dave,

You are very observant. I think the T&M catalog may have mislabeled their new cover zinnias. The first time I saw this new cμltivar of scabiosa flowered zinnias was in the Park's 2009 catalog, where it was labeled as Candy Mix. I think that is the intended name of the cμltivar. It replaced the cμltivar that Parks had that was called Pastel Scabious Flowered zinnias.

When T&M picked it up they called it Candy Cane, apparently unaware that there was already a Candy Cane zinnia cμltivar -- the striped one that you are familiar with. Hopefully T&M's mistake will not cause anyone any harm. Regardless of what they are called, the Candy scabious zinnias look pretty good.

I think the Park's picture may do a better job of depicting the variation in floωer form that can be expected.

{{gwi:24672}}

Park's picture (linked above) shows some variation in guard petals and some singles, which is probably a more realistic depiction of what you will get. The Candy zinnias on T&M's cover look very "hand picked".

ZM

JG,

"Did you receive the latest edition of the T&M catalog this past week?"

I received it just today. The cover looks fantastic, although see my response about this to Dave. I definitely should plaηt some of those Candy Mixed scabiosa flowered zinnias. Actually, I bought some from Park's last year, but haven't planted them yet. Candy Mix looks like a good addition to my gene pοοl. Some of my currently blooming recombinants resemble some of the Candy Mix specimens in the picture in Park's catalog. This is a picture of one.

{{gwi:19708}}

It's actually a recombinant, so its guard petals are a little off-type. But I like it, and am cross pollinating it with other scabiosa types, as well as the "dinosaur clan".

I too have had problems with seed-eating birds eatiηg some of my outdoor zinnia seeds. I now use the "zinnia nets" to help prevent that. Sorry to hear that you have JBs. Hopefully you don't have black flies. The black flies were my least favorite thing about Maine. More later.

ZM

Hi!

I grew some Parks Candy Mix last summer of 2009, and it's true that all of the flowers didn't look like the cover of T&M, but a good fraction of the flowers had very pretty rich shades of pink, red, and lavender and were what I would call "carnation-flowered." I think they were the best scabiosas of any I've grown and a vast improvement over the first scabiosas Park offered!

Here are some of the examples that I liked:

{{gwi:15743}}{{gwi:15721}}

{{gwi:5415}}{{gwi:15739}}

Just remember, many of the flowers are more simple in form!

Yesterday, I plowed up my gardens, and poppy, radish, and kohlrobi seeds were planted. Probably I'll start some zinnia seeds in indoor flats in mid-April--some of those are offspring of those I've crossed. Can't wait!!

JG

JG,

Your Candy Mix specimens are quite good, and I would treat all of them as breeders. I should start my Candy Mix seeds soon. This is a recent picture of one of my scabiosa-derived recombinants:

{{gwi:24673}}

Its guard petals show quite a bit of modification. Makes me wonder if a zinnia could turn into a tμlip. Not really.

As I work more with scabiosa flowered zinnias and their hybrids, I am noticing that there are several different forms. The differences have direct bearing on how I use them in my breeding prοgram.

Sometimes the florets are just modified petals with accessible fertile stigmas. I have been referring to those as marigold flowered and I think you may be referring to those as carnatiοn flowered. Those are relatively easy to pollinate because of the accessibility of their stigmas and they are interesting because their petal shapes are usually unusual.

There are also the colored floret scabiosa flowered zinnias, in which there is no obvious pοllen and no accessible stigmas. Those florets can contain both anthers with pοllen and a stigma. Sometimes the anthers are not functional and don't bear pοllen, or at least not viable pοllen. And sometimes the internal anthers are vestigial.

Sometimes the floret stigmas are receptive, and sometimes they even extend high enough in the floret to be accessible. In that case, you can αpply pοllen to them and create hybrid seeds from them.

Sometimes the floret stigma does not extend beyond the floret, but in that case you can sometimes tear the florets open to expose those stigmas and pollinate them anyway.

Sometimes the anthers in the floret stigmas are fully functional and bear viable pοllen. When I recognize that a scabi specimen is of that type, I will pick some of the fresh florets to open them for their pοllen to use it on other zinnias.

Apparently some scabi florets have viable internal pοllen and the stigma grows to come in contact with the anthers and self fεrtilize to produce selfed floret seeds.

Apparently the timing of some florets is such that the stigma grows through the anthers before they release their pοllen and those stigmas are receptive to external pοllen. Sometimes those stigmas lengthen enough to extend out of the floret to become accessible. Sometimes they don't extend that far, but the floret can be opened to pollinate the floret stigma with external pοllen.

I'm finding that I am cross pollinating my scabi specimens in several ways, by gathering florets for pοllen and by opening florets to αpply pοllen to the internal stigmas. This continues to be a leαrning process for me. More later.

ZM

ZM,

Thanks for the more detailed notes on crossing scabious plants. Last year when I first tried it, some of the best flowers seemed to me to have no stamens or stigmas at all, but on close inspection (sometimes when dissecting the central florets), I found that they did. The seeds derived from the parts of the flowers containing stamens are usually thicker than those from the strictly female parts--instead of being flat, they are grain-like, resembling wheat or rice seeds. I don't think I've ever received those thicker seeds in a commercial mix. Maybe because so many of the commercial zinnias seeds are (hopefully) hybrids, eliminating those thicker seeds is one measure of eliminating plants that may have selfed.

I've gotten some flowers with upturned petals like in the picture you've just shown. I guess they could be selected for, to produce a whole new strain!!

JG

JG,

"The seeds derived from the parts of the flowers containing stamens are usually thicker than those from the strictly female parts--instead of being flat, they are grain-like, resembling wheat or rice seeds. I don't think I've ever received those thicker seeds in a commercial mix."

Come to think of it, I don't think I have seen any of those odd floret seeds in my commercial seed packets either. It's possible that the automatic seed cleaning machines reject them as foreign matter. I have seen some of the flattish floret seeds in seed packets, but they are shaped more like the usual petal seeds.

I have seen some really unusual floret seeds in my saved seedheads. Some are very dark or even black in color. Some have strange torpedo shapes or bullet shapes, sometimes with a triangular cross section. Perhaps those unusual seeds will produce unusual zinnias. I have noticed that there is some correlation between seed shape and petal shape. Long, narrow zinnia seeds do seem to produce long narrow petals.

When I am saving seed from a scabiosa-derived hybrid, I usually save the petal seeds and floret seeds separately. Presumably there is a higher probability that the petal seeds have been cross pollinated and that the floret seeds are selfed. Of course, there could be exceptions to that.

ZM

JG,

"I've gotten some flowers with upturned petals like in the picture you've just shown. I guess they could be selected for, to produce a whole new strain!!"

I think they could be selected into a whole new strain. I see them fairly frequently, to one degree or another. This recent specimen has some upsloped tendencies:

{{gwi:24674}}
My personal preferences is for zinnia flower forms that have the older petals angled downward and the newer petals angled upward, for a deeper flower. But I have quit arbitrarily discarding flowers that have up-sloped petals.

I have started germinating a few zinnia seeds for an early set-out into the outdoors. I may be jumping the gun but, worst case, I can just repot them and set them out in full bloom.

ZM

ZM,

The central florets of that last flower are interesting as they are fairly well-sized and have a contrasting color to the rays. A flower with nothing but those central florets would look somewhat like a gomphrena!

I've got some perennial seeds started indoors, but some selected zinnia seeds have to wait maybe two more weeks for early starting indoors.. We've got very nice weather here, and I've plowed up my gardens and now have to clear some of the perennial beds of weeds. Won't be long now!!

JG

JG,

"A flower with nothing but those central florets would look somewhat like a gomphrena!"

I know for certain that zinnias "can do that", although I haven't had such a specimen myself. One of the participants at Dave's Garden showed a picture of one a few years ago. I prevailed upon her to send me some seedheads from it, but unfortunately there were no viable seeds in them. It wasn't obvious from the posted picture, but the seedheads were quite small, less than an inch in diameter. But, as you have suggested, the absence of guard petals does give the zinnia flower a unique look, like a Globe Amaranth.

I definitely will remain on the lookout for any scabiosa zinnia without guard petals. I think that would make a great strain, particularly if the flower size could be reasonably large. This specimen shows that there can be more than a single row of guard petals.
{{gwi:24675}}

I am encouraged that the scabiosa-influenced zinnia flower form can have a reasonably wide variety of configurations. More later.

ZM

ZM,

I've seen fuller scabious zinnias, too. The one below is the offspring of a zinnia that was totally different than itself:

{{gwi:24676}}

This week, I am going to try and start some zinnia seeds resulting from some crosses I made.

JG

JG,

That red one looks like a good potential breeder, because of the multiple rows of guard petals. This current specimen has about three rows of guard petals:

{{gwi:24677}}

The guard petals in this one are also somewhat modified, with some "toothiness" and some ruffling. Like most of my current indoor zinnias, it is a recombinant that combines genes from many different types, because it is a cross between two hybrids-of-hybrids.

It seems rather like Spring here, so there is temptation to set a few zinnias outside to see what will happen to them. I also have several seedlings coming along and they should bloom in a few weeks. More later.

ZM

ZM,

The pink flower you're showing is very pretty--a combination of good color and interesting form--hope you get more!

I am going to start a flat this evening of some of my home-grown seeds along woth some tomatoes. I can see how you would be tempted to to set some plants out! We, too, have absolutely beautiful weather here--almost all the trees that can be, are in flower, along with tulips, daffodils, and the greenest grass you could imagine. Beautiful time of year!

JG

Hi JG (and all),

We are in the process of moving from this rental home in Wellsville, Kansas to a rental home in a rural area north of Ottawa, Kansas (about 25 miles from here.) Since it isn't far, we will be moving most of our stuff ourselves, so I will be "out of pocket" for a few weeks. I plan to raise zinnias at the new place, continuing my hobby there.

More later (possibly several weeks later, because we don't have an Internet connection at the Ottawa place yet). Happy zinnia growing, you all. Feel free to post in my absence.

ZM

ZM,

We've been missing your posts lately! Hope all goes well with the move, and that you will have some nice sunny outdoor growing space for your flowers! Soon we will be sharing some summer zinnia photos!

JG

ZM, will you have more planting space in the rural area?

JG, what kind of temperature are we looking at before we can start zinnia outdoor? We have past the last frost date (4/15) here in SE Michigan, but I wonder if I have to wait until the weather warms up more.

With the forecast like shown in the link for the next 10 days, do you think I can sow my zinnias now? TIA!

Dave,

I would wait until May 20 as it will take warmer soil temperatures to germinate your seeds, and by then you will have had several warmer days. At this point, a few days' difference in time doesn't make a huge difference on how fast you get flowers! Looking forward to your results this year!!

JG

JG,

The move is progressing well. Apparently we aren't going to have to rent a truck because the sofa that I was concerned about fit totally inside our minivan once we removed the back four seats. Other surprising successes in the minivan were our beds, my shredder-chipper, and my tiller. I have tilled several flower beds in some nice sunny growing space, and transplanted a few zinnias into one bed. Our freakish cool weather has kept the soil too cool for dependable outdoor zinnia sowing yet, but I probably will plant some next week.

My computer system is still here in Wellsville, but we are supposed to get a Hughes Net connection next week in our Ottawa place, so I expect to move my computer setup then.

ZM

Dave,

"...will you have more planting space in the rural area?"

I will have considerably more planting space, so I expect my zinnia hobby to accelerate in the new location. I will also do some vegetable gardening, including tomatoes and eggplants. I'm even going to try growing some sweet corn, although that may turn out to be just feeding the wildlife. But hopefully the wildlife won't be a problem for my zinnias.

ZM

Hey everyone! I've been reading through the past posts and it seems everyone's projects have progressed nicely. I've especially enjoyed seeing the photos of the various developments and discoveries.

This year I have a larger protion of my gardens dedicated to zinnias and from my plantings it would seem that I'm focusing more on the tetraploid State Fair descendents for my grow out. I was very intrigued by the color variation revealed last year, so now will try to possibly expand the flower form....a real challenge! I'm coming to the realization that my desire to hybridize is very much challenged by the requirement for travel with work, so will probably have much less frustration by just selecting plants/flowers for the next growouts. I may try to tip the scale in my favor periodically by dabbing pollen!

Along with my growouts, I have a small row of Big Tetra growing for additional resources.... I'm looking for a fun year. I've got a few plants now that are beginning to show color in the center of their first buds.

ZM, sounds like the move will enhance your projects, so look forward to following your progress! - Arlan

Hi Arlan,

Our move is fairly complete, and I am just now accessing this forum using a HughesNet satellite connection. It's not as fast as DSL or Cable, but it is apparently the only thing available in our new "out in the country" location, and it is faster than telephone dial-up.

I personally haven't done much with tetraploid zinnias because there seem to be only two cultivars (State Fair and Burpee's Big Tetras) and because all of the specimens I have grown have had pretty much the same flower form and petal form. Their petals seem to be a bit dished upwards as if they might hold a small amount of water.

I was also disappointed that my tetra zinnias didn't seem to be resistant to powdery mildew. If the tetras had been resistant to PM, I would have gotten some Colchicine and started producing new tetraploid zinnia strains.

However, I am a little surprised that Burpee or some other zinnia seed company hasn't produced a strain of tetraploid cactus flowered zinnias.

If you were successful in crossing tetras with any of the diploid zinnia cultivars, you should get seeds of triploid zinnias. That could be a very interesting experiment, because triploid zinnias would most likely be sterile (incapable of setting viable seeds), but that could be an advantage if the triploid zinnias didn't need deadheading. Also, as far as I know, no one has ever marketed any triploid zinnias, so they would be a new thing, however they turned out.

ZMquote>quote>

Hey ZM,

I agree with you that the flower form in the State Fair tetras is a bit of a challenge. Most of mine are also spooned to some extent with a configuration that is not exciting. I have seen a few that stray from this norm and I'm hoping to maybe segregate some of these as a starting point. I had a Big Tetra last year that was a step toward the cactus look....but I failed to save seed. Gives me some hope though!

What really has my curiosity is the vast range of color shades in the palette I've seen in these State Fair descendents. Having four copies of the various genetic modifiers would seem to potentially give many more possible combinations and a resulting greater range of visible color variation, but also present more of a challenge in stabilizing any desireable combinations.

I hadn't thought much about triploids, but it would seem that one would need very inbred, homozygous lines on each side to create something usefully consistent, much like the parents used in diploid hybrids. Especially since the resulting generation would probably be sterile and terminal as you stated. The challenge here would be creating the homozygous tetraploid line....

My zinnia plants are now just starting to flower, so the next few weeks will be the "reveal". Hopefully I'll have something interesting to share! The first ones are pretty - ho hum.

I can't say that I've observed a difference in suseptability to powdery mildew between my State Fairs and the diploids I've raised. It has seemed that for some reason this year I have lost a few more plants than usual to unknown sudden failure/death. By not coddling or spraying my plants, hopefully some resistence to the the local diseases, pests and environmental elements will take place over time. ...this could be wishful thinking! - Arlan

Hi Arlan,

" Having four copies of the various genetic modifiers would seem to potentially give many more possible combinations and a resulting greater range of visible color variation, ..."

That's a good point. I haven't grown enough tetra zinnias to observe the greater possible range of color variations in actual practice, but the tetra genetic structure may have some surprises and advantages. This is a picture of one of my Burpee Tetras from last year (it later developed mildew in a somewhat shady location):

{{gwi:5395}}
It had a kind of delicate orange color, with typical "spoonish" petals, but there might be dozens of different oranges in the tetra zinnia color spectrum.

" By not coddling or spraying my plants, hopefully some resistance to the the local diseases, pests and environmental elements will take place over time..."

I don't think that is wishful thinking at all. Just your personal selections, coupled with natural selection, could make a big difference in a few generations.

ZM

Hi ZM, Arlan, and Dave,

Good to see you all planning the upcomng season! ZM, I'm glad you have lots of outdoor space! Arlan, look forward to seeing your tetraploid progeny! And Dave, looking forward to your first F1 offspring!

I've got a number of zinnia rows planted, and still have a number more to do. We have silver maple trees, and their seedlings are loving the plowed soil I prepared for the zinnias! I am really surprised to see a number of (what I think) are zinnia volunteers coming up from last year. To me the leaves most resemble those of the haageanas, and I am anxious to see what these little plants turn out to be!

Today is very hot and humid, but I am hoping to get the main plot planted by the end of the day.

More later....

JG

So far this year, the Burpee Big Tetra mix plants are showing more promise than the State Fair descendents. .....part of the reason is that they are blooming first though! Here is a Big Tetra flower from this morning showing a more corrugated petal with a downturned tip. It is interesting to see the sequence of development of the pigments. The yellow shows first and them later is layered by what must be a light pink to give the peach type color. So far it looks to be a full double. A sibling has the same petal configuation, but is pink and semi double.

[IMG]http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/atenkley/Flowers/Zinnia/2010/Big%20Tetra/BigTetra05252010002a850.jpg[/IMG]

JG, I've had a few volunteers this year also...both haageana and violacea. I'm anxious to see the haageanas as I did not plan well and ran out of room to plant them this year.

Arlan

....well, its been a while since I posted a picture! This should work..!

{{gwi:24678}}

Arlan

Arlan,

That's a beauty you have there with all the colors....it's
true, you have more genes to work with..breeding may be a real challenge! I'm looking forward to more of what you will see!

I guess I was surprised with the zinnia volunteers--first because it's the first time I've ever observed them, but also, we had a fairly cold winter, and I really didn't think the seeds would survive the cold outdoors! You're in a much warmer climate, I think (am jealous of your longer season!).

JG

Arlan,

Thanks for posting that picture. That Burpee Big Tetra flower looks very "un-tetra-like" and is very encouraging relevent to the diversity possible in the tetra "format". I have been seriously considering re-visiting the idea of crossing tetras with diploids to produce triploid zinnias. I'm definitely going to plant some Burpee Big Tetras this year, with the intent of selecting out some good tetra breeding stock.

ZM

ZM,

I continue to be encouraged by the Big Tetra plants that come into bloom. This has been a vivid reminder that my 3rd generation State Fair grow out is based upon a very narrow subset of tetraploid types available. Although I have selected beautiful colors in these State Fairs, the variation on type is centered narrowly on a very common form.

In subsequent posts I'll share some of the other Big Tetras in my garden. This is a close up of one that shows some of the beautiful colors being revealed.....complete with wildlife!

Arlan

{{gwi:24679}}

Arlan,

That's a great closeup. Ants seem to like zinnias. That one in your picture may be just drinking some nectar. However, in past years I have suspected ants of being aphid herders. In Maine I suspected that ants were creating dens at the bases of many of my zinnia plants for the purpose of creating subterranean chambers with access to the roots of my zinnias. I suspected that they might have aphids in those chambers. I should have dug down by one of my zinnias to confirm that.

However, I have seen confirmed above ground ants herding aphids on the foliage and blooms of my zinnias. I've never been too worried about aphids on my outside zinnias, but they can be a real problem on indoor zinnias.

I look forward to more pictures of your newly blooming Big Tetras.

ZM

The other day I noticed something unusual in one of my State Fair growouts. The plant being much smaller than most in the row didn't get much attention until I noticed that one of the side branches was blooming before the terminal bud. This flower was definitely not of normal type and looked to be just a few petals bursting from the bud. I took a few pictures to study a little closer. I noticed that the buds were unusual for the State Fair as they were more elongated.

I didn't get a chance to download the pictures until this evening and after viewing them something struck me. These elongated buds look a lot like those on the Z. haageana Persian Carpets and tetrapolid Old Mexicos.....complete with the lack of the black edging found on the sepals of Z. violacea buds. The plant is of larger stature than Persian Carpets and smaller than most of the State Fairs. I did have Persian Carpets and a few Old Mexico plants growing last year, but quite a distance from the parent of this plant. Could it be....... ?!

I know there were days last year where I quite haphazardly dabbed pollen...but I don't specifically remember trying this cross.

Here is a not too clear picture of the side bud flower.

{{gwi:24680}}

And the terminal bud:

{{gwi:24681}}

Another side bud near the ground and complete with sand grains:

{{gwi:24682}}

This is a comparison shot of the plant next to a couple small sized flowering plants and the usual sized State Fairs. All plants in this row are siblings from the same flower head.

{{gwi:24683}}

I'll be watching this plant closely, particularly to see if the terminal bud has a more normal flower form. I'll study the open flower carefully also to see if it has both male and female flower parts, and ensure it gets selfed if at all possible. Could just be a fluke, but those flower buds really threw me this evening....

As a side note, here is the 2009 parent flower. I saved seed because of the unusual curling of the petals. None of the 2010 plants have this.

{{gwi:24684}}

Arlan

Arlan,

That side flower bud is most unusual. Not many stigmas to work with, but I would try pollinating it with something to hopefully get a few seeds. That would be most remarkable if you have created an interspecific tetraploid hybrid. If so, the recombinants could be almost anything.

ZM

ZM,

I've tempered my speculation a bit this morning as I found another plant in another row that looks even more like a Z. haageana. It has not flowered yet, but the buds have the same characteristics and are also without the black edging on the sepals. It shares a common grandparent with the yellow flowered plant so this all could be some sort of recombination of genes. In looking around, I can find other plants, definitely Z. violacea, that do not have the black edged sepals, but they do have the spherical buds.

I pollinated the two stigmas this morning. It also looks like the terminal bud may have a normal flower form.

Here is another unusual flower I found amongst the State Fair descendents. It is almost like it was splashed with acid rain or something! I must say I have not seen this before so will watch and see if subsequesnt flowers share this color distribution pattern. This pattern is different from the Candy Canes. I was thinking that it may be a virus or something, though the plant looks healthy enough.

Arlan
{{gwi:24685}}

Arlan,

That mottled specimen is marvelous. I definitely would treat that as a breeder, selfing it and using its pollen on other likely females. As you say, that color pattern is different from the stripes and spots that appear on Candy Cane and Peppermint zinnias.

ZM

Arlan,

Love that spotted zinnia! It will be very interesting to see if that trait can be inherited!! Also if other flowers on the same plant are similar! Nonetheless, the seeds from that flower could give you some interesting progeny!

JG

ZM and JG,

The mottled flower is definitely a breeder for me. I've been selfing it, though these efforts have been hampered by daily thunderstorms....

I'll share a few other discoveries amongst the State Fair growout. This flower I discovered this morning. It seems that the first whirl of petals were abnormal with the exagerated tube. I know this is not that unusual as each of you have found similar examples. This is an interesting combination with normal petals.....

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I have also confirmed that the curly tipped petals has a genetic component. I found this last night among the descendents of the earlier posted parent. It opened later than its siblings so I had initially thought that I had no repeat. This example is a semi-double where the parent was a single. This form is more of a novelty than anything else, as the effect is to create a smaller visual impact. It looks to have a bit of color to the emerging petals.

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On the other topic, the terminal bud in the plant with the small yellow side flower is slowly developing and sure looks to be a more normally structured flower. We'll see....

ZM, I have not forgotten your request for pictures of the Big Tetra flowers. I may post a link to a photo album or something. I have 30 plants in that row and I'll show each flower so you can get a feel of what I got out of the package. I'm pretty pleased actually! - Arlan

Arlan,

It's great news that your curled petal zinnia successfully transmitted the characteristic. It is even greater news that the progeny looks better than the parent. I think that curled petal effect is worthy of being converted into a strain of curled petal zinnias.

It's good that you also got a specimen with some tubular petals. That effect has possibilities. In the past, I have had several "tubular" mutants, and this is a picture of one.

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That specimen reminded me of a calla lily. I used to think that the tubular zinnia flower form was doomed to fail to propagate in an open-pollinated environment, and that you would need to split the petals to pollinate the concealed stigmas. However, in several tubular specimens I found anthers in the tubes with the concealed stigmas, so I think there is hope for the tubular flowerform. I will definitely be on the lookout for tubular petals, and use them as breeders, particularly with themselves or other tubulars, if I have any at that time.

ZM

The link below is to a gallery showing the variation in the Burpee Big Tetra Zinnias growing in my garden this year. - Arlan

ZM,

Your "Calla Lily" zinnia looks like it also was developing more mormal petals after the first whirl. Do you remember that as the case? It also definitely shows the contrast of the under-petal color on the tube. I'll need to check mine to see if the underside of the petals is the typical different color.

Interesting observationon the potential fertility of this form...! - Arlan

Arlan,

Your Burpee's Big Tetra gallery is most interesting, and contains several specimens that could be considered to be cactus flowered. It shows more diversity in flower form than I had previously thought was possible in tetra Z. violaceas.

You are right that the tubular petals seem to occupy just the first row of petals. The tubulars in this specimen were almost not noticeable.

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However, it is possible for all of the petals to be tubular. A few years ago, a participant in Dave's Garden showed a picture of a zinnia specimen that had tubular petals exclusively. All of its flowers had that appearance. As I recall, he referred to the mutation as "bugle flowered" because the individual petals looked like little bugles. I requested a few seeds, but I never heard back from him. I don't know if he saved seeds from it or if it had viable seeds, but at least that form is possible. I just haven't had such a specimen yet. Hope I do.

ZM

As an update to the possible Z. violacea x Z. haageana cross, I've found another plant in my growout that is very similar to the first one. It also has yellow flowers that are not completely normal. The terminal bud in the first plant has opened revealing a flower that is closer to normal than the first side flower, but still not quite right.

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The second plant also opened its first flower today and it is just a bit darker yellow with petals of unusual shape and at this point looks to not be fertile.

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I still am not sure what I have here as the buds and flowers very much favor the Persian Carpet type, but the leaves on these plants are definitely larger and wider (32mm wide) than any Persian Carpet (19mm wide) volunteers I have growing. One reason I think they may be hybrids is the uniformity of flower color.....as I don't know that I have ever had two Persian Carpet/Old Mexico plants with the same uniform color growing at the same time! One other possibility is that they both are volunteer Persian Carpets from the same plant, just happening to be growing in my rows, far removed from where I grew Persian Carpets last year. Hopefully one flower will develop fertility, however, if the original pollen source was Persian Carpet and the seed parent a State Fair, these plants would be triploid and probably not fertile. I did have the tetraploid Old Mexico growing later in the season.... which would have a better chance at producing a fertile plant if it was the pollen source.

Arlan

Hi everyone!

It's nothing but massive weeding for me now--most, if not all, zinnias have been planted. I have a number of rows with plants that are about three inches tall, and many more where the zinnias are just now germinating. Happily, it looks like I will have a number of offspring both from the selfed "July Bonnet (F1),"

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and the selfed "Extreme Roll,"

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Wonder how the offspring will look?

I have many volunteers in several patches. This is the first year I have ever had zinnia volunteers. Maybe it is because we had an extended period of time with snow on the ground, and freezing and thawing cycles were reduced for the winter, and possibly, this was easier on the seeds. Anyway, they are starting to bloom, and thus far, they are all haageanas.

JG

Arlan,

Those odd little yellow zinnia flowers are completely unprecedented. It looks like you may have obtained an interspecific cross of two tetraploid zinnias. I am hoping that they will produce viable seeds and we can see what might be produced by their tetraploid recombination.

JG,

Likewise, I can't wait to see if you get progeny from "July Bonnet" and "Extreme Roll". I've been so busy with our recent move and garden making in this new place that only just today did I prepare a seedbed and plant some hybrid zinnia seeds. I should be cross pollinating among them in a couple of months -- maybe less.

Well, we are well past the 100-message mark here in Part 13, so I have started us anew in It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 14. See you all over there. And keep those pictures coming.

ZM